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Copying the professionals? |
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Speedplay 
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Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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 Posted: 10/05/2009 at 12:05pm |
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Well, you need to be able to stand before you can walk and you need to be able to walk before you can run. So, when you are going to teach some one to walk, will you do that but making them look at people who run? Obviously not, we have to move one level at the time and gain the understanding from that level before we move on.
Compared to the pro's, I think most of us here have just learnt how to stand, so we should rather learn how to walk before we try to run. |
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Recanter
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Posted: 10/05/2009 at 1:04pm |
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That's why I said, copy from the pro's but their fundementals first :) More advanced stuff later etc. It's all a question of "how much" you want to copy them. |
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Timo Boll ALC ST
FH: BTY Tenergy 64 2.1 BH: BTY EJ Max |
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APW46
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Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Posted: 10/05/2009 at 3:44pm |
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So you have nothing in between where you come from? what about all the competent players with a wealth of experience who never made it to pro, but are much better than you are? have they nothing to offer you?
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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APW46
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Posted: 10/05/2009 at 3:54pm |
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Great, but after 10 yrs of not really improving having watched training video's and reading books you may start to think that there is something else. Don't get me wrong, these things are full of worthy tips, but they are about making money. And they are not interactive. I really don't know what the standard and structure is like in Brisbane Boz, but I do know that there will be plenty of players around that have been the same standard for years, many of them quite dedicated too. You don't have to be one of them, but the likelyhood is you will keep improving until you reach a plain where you can improve no more. It will be no-where near the standard of the Pro's, why? you could say its down to your age/available time/ finances, but I still strongly urge you to seek out your local top boys and learn off them, they can make you as good as they are, but are you aiming higher? if so good luck to you sir.
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ppgear
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Joined: 01/02/2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Status: Offline Points: 1331 |
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Posted: 10/05/2009 at 6:32pm |
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Can we all agree that there is definitely something to learn from watching the pros, therefore it's not a bad idea to watch a lot of videos of them and pick up things here and there.
Watching the pros isn't the best way to improve. Getting a coach is probably the single best thing you can do to improve. Nevertheless, watching the pros and trying to learn has its value. Let's just leave it at that. |
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Arthur Lui
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dragon kid
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Posted: 10/05/2009 at 9:21pm |
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No, we can't leave it at that ppgear. apparently our friend APW there believes that we cannot learn anything from reading TT articles and watching TT videos. If you try to learn from those, we are great pretenders. And if we don't agree with him, we are idiots.
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'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody' |
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APW46
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 4:55am |
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Are you sure I said that dragon?
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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dragon kid
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 6:58am |
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'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody' |
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APW46
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 7:01am |
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Yes? they are
 that is why they are not free. |
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APW46
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 7:08am |
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Oh I see, everyone who buys the video, ends up with word class serves
 I would sugest that virtually nobody who tries to learn how to serve using the Kong linghui training video, ends up with serves remotely anything like his. Just a copy of his service action. |
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dragon kid
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 7:12am |
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not really.. there are free TT literature and videos..
Oh and APW, we're not trying to be pros if you think that way, we're merely picking up tips from pros to improve, I assure you that 99.99% forum members here don't want to be a pro.. I am off to practice now so I might not be able to response to your next post in the next 4 hours ^^ |
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'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody' |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 9:53am |
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your totally right apw - the good players at the club do have tons of tips - the nicer ones. actually the best and happiest points for me was as I rose up into each new division - and had a new team member - that would give tips between games
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 10:02am |
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Some of the players are really nice and are very happy to give tips - but honestly most the time at the end of the game or match I know about 80% of what people would say.
i cant even remember or care what this topic was about - but i know we learn various things in an infinite amount of ways, different people learn in different ways, some visiual, some from reading, some from personal touch and human contact, other only through practise other in all of them and there skills which cross over from one sport to others - and mental training coming from deep understanding of self - of control of mind - of belief - of respect -
these things cant just come from one path - so why dont we all just accept you cant put everything in shoe box or was it a pigeon hole?
catch the pigeon catch the pigeon catch pigeon!
mutley
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LOOPMEISTER
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Joined: 11/13/2008 Location: U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 2486 |
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 10:02am |
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 I would suggest that most people who watch his videos and are motivated to copy his service action probably improve. That's the point. Its obvious you are just around to argue. Your posts are still as smug and as condescending as your random post that started this whole argument. Besides, I thought you were quitting this forum? |
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cole_ely
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 10:16am |
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I think this is an interesting and important thread/question. Do you try to copy the professionals.
In terms of equipment, probably not.
In terms of style, virtually every pro has a very good stroke and has been well trained. When they break the rules it's ok, because you have to know them to break them, and they do/can.
Certainly when a young player is developing, they should try to emulate the proper basics that every pro exhibits in the core of their game. But what about players who have already developed a game that ISN'T what a coach would teach?
I know a guy who is a 2100 player who uses markV on fh and 755 on bh. He sticks his finger up the back of the blade and plays somewhat seemiller style. No coach would teach this. But it works pretty well for him. If you consider that he's been retired several years and his knees barely move, it would be suicide for him to try to go back to a traditional looping game.
I know another guy who is like approaching 50. Also a combination player. He was a seemiller who kind of made an adjustment back to regular grip, althoguh he still slides in and out. Maybe 5 years after his switch, I don't suppose he's any better than he would be if he had jsut stayed with the same grip. He's better sure, but that's because he's practiced a lot with good players. Not because of his grip.
I was like 1400 and 38yrs, and I was mostly pushing and had not good form on my topspin. I made an overnight change (took a 4 hour lesson from Dana Jefferies in Colo Springs and had him show me every stroke from ground up) and was stuck like 2 years at 1400 while I caught back up to my old game. Very glad I did it. Plus I learned basics from him that I passed on the beginners here in my small town, and I can be somewhat of an example in form. At least better than I would have been if I had stayed more defensive.
And there's something to be said for a "quirky" player who has an unorthodox style in the under 2000 range.
I've seen players who are set in their ways try to make changes that really screwed them up. My conclusion to this long thesis is that everybody should try to start with fundamentally correct grip and strokes. But there comes a certain "tipping point" where I just don't know that it's worth trying to remake yourself anymore.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 10:36am |
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APW and I had a seriously deep pm and at the end of it I begged him to continue the thread - we now agree about everything.
He is paying me -
to anybody and everybody who will ever disagree with apw.
Remember only 1 simple thing
if he says something its much deeper than it sounds. on the top surface its really shallow but when you look deeper you can learn so much. He has really changed my way of thinking.
We discussed meeting up and he is going to coach me for free when I get to England.
Can't wait.
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 10:41am |
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nah honestly sorry apw - we basically agreed we couldnt be bothered arguing with each other - neither of us agree on fundamental points when comes to learning and thats all there is to it, nobody should waste their breath either trying to argue because even if he knows he is wrong he will just enjoy the arguement - we all know that by now.
hats off to apw - good on you mate you never give up despite your promises.
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Recanter
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 11:11am |
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AWP46
Ok you got me (headshot) :P
I didn't make myself clear, sure some of the best advice I have had came from semi-pro/amateurs.
But that's more of a dietary supplement than a main meal. Your basic table tennis fundamentals should still come from the pro's.
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Timo Boll ALC ST
FH: BTY Tenergy 64 2.1 BH: BTY EJ Max |
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TT over Study
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 11:20am |
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apw getting boring now
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APW46
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 12:31pm |
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Thats just plain silly, what is the point of a forum if everyone has to comply with 'the majority' or quit. I have nothing to gain from this, I just like to offer an alternative view. Still you have just reminded me I said I'd had enough, I have, I just thought I'd see this thread out, but you get your wish.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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nicefrog
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 12:34pm |
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I've been copying the pros from watching youtube this year and after being stagnant for 15 years my game is rapidly improving. So It gets my vote, I find it very easy to copy a shot once I know it exsists, but I hadn't had the chance to see alot of things before. Untill a couple of years ago I would have seen less than 1 hour of professional footage in the 25 years I've been playingso for me it's a big advantage to see some of the more complex shots. I've developed an inside and outside loop with enough side spin to bring the ball back to where ever I want it on the table in just the last couple of months. These kind of shots I didn't even consider before
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LOOPMEISTER
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 2:03pm |
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Who said anything about complying with the majority or quitting? You're the one who wrote the dramatic goodbye post. And stop making yourself into a victim. Its not you against the world. You're the one who started this whole thing with a negative comment, instead of saying something constructive and practical. There are plenty of people supporting your view in this thread anyway. |
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JKC
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 2:08pm |
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I suppose not everyone has the quality of players locally who are able to play these shots, but if there is someone nearby who you can ask for advice they are always going to be your best bet.
At the end of the day, we are all entitled to train and play exactly how we like. It is all about balancing the enjoyment and the improvement. We all enjoy smacking the ball around, but what not many people appreciate is that at most lower/intermediate levels, the best way to have a rapid improvement would be to get slower, more controllable equipment, work on service, service return, pushing and touchplay and spend less time working on the offensive stuff. It all depends on whether you are willing to sacrifice some of the enjoyment you get from practice to work on the boring stuff.
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 2:15pm |
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+100. Well said--truer words have never been spoken concerning table tennis. |
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JKC
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 2:26pm |
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This is the hidden part of the pro's practice. They will put numerous hours into this each week, and then probably play only one or occasionally two touch shots per rally (sometimes none). If they didn't practice it at all (like most of us) then they would get nowhere.
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praywin
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 2:31pm |
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JKC, I saw your video on serves and it's pretty impressive. Where did you learn those serves from ?
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JKC
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 3:46pm |
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I know people are going to think I am just saying this to back up my point, but I picked up ideas from looking at local players and from my old coach (yes, believe it or not, I was coached once-upon-a-time) and just experimented with actions and different spins for myself. This is all in the past though. Thankfully at the level I play, my serve has always been a strong part of my game and I have never really had to work at it. I'm sure I could improve it plenty and possibly drag myself to a slightly higher level with it if I did, but the idea of service practice really doesn't appeal.
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Recanter
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 3:58pm |
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I just saw the JKC serve video as well. Excellent serves, low, short, spinny and variation. Thanks for them vids :)
P.S.
There's alot of weaponry to expoilt a powerful 3rd ball game.
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Timo Boll ALC ST
FH: BTY Tenergy 64 2.1 BH: BTY EJ Max |
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JKC
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 4:11pm |
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You might find it difficult to believe based on the videos you have seen, but I do have a powerful 3rd ball game. It is just based on spin rather than speed. It means I offer my opponents something different that many haven't seen before and cannot cope with. The JKC v APW vid only contained longer rallies, so there are no 3rd ball winners from either of us.
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icontek
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This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Posted: 10/06/2009 at 11:25pm |
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So funny. I am almost exactly where you are (similar level, age, taking on fundamental changes on minimal coaching, spending 2 years implementing those changes and then dealing with the "catching up" part in matches). Just because I can suddenly rally topspin doesn't mean I win more points. It just means I have more options now than serve/3rd ball and push and pick hit... I'm thrilled by the results of the undertaking; when playing weaker players I can now turn games into PRACTICE (lobbing, fishing and blocking... heck tonight i even started to lob-lob-lob-loopkill). Don't get me wrong; the occasional Highlight Video Hail Mary inside out sidespin loop against wide FH shots still "feels good", but I'm not trying to base a game off of it! |
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Recanter wrote: