Is Multiball Helping?

Baal wrote: Rack wrote:   Again, I totally agree that multiball is a very useful tool within the toolbox of a coach but there are many tools to do the same job especially if the student isn't gaining much from it in terms of real world match results.  If the coach is not really good at giving multiball, it is also of less value. It's a real skill all its own.

Edited by Rack - 11/18/2012 at 12:50am

Rack wrote: Don't get me wrong... multiball is a great tool to use so Yogi, I'm not saying that it's not a good tool or blaming it for people having poor performance because of it.   However I do believe that different people learn very differently in terms of understanding the feel of the game.  As I said, I've met people who gained immensely from multiballing while some people literally gained nothing from it yet jumped a huge amount just challenging the coach to simulate someone of a certain level in terms of gameplay/tactics.  Yet I've seen coaches not even take that into account and still keep multiballing them for 5 years plus taking their money without guilt.   thats what im saying. your pointing to the multiball as the culprit and not the coach and his programs. if you have multiballed for 5 yrs and have not improved immensely then there is something wrong with the program you are in. let me reiterate. its the coach's fault basing on the situation you were stating   Some coaches will also make multiballs easier for their students to hit by providing all the pace/power to borrow which makes it seem like they're making huge progress within the lesson but will later watch these students get destroyed by a basement player who pushes them to oblivion because nothing they did simulated such a style where the player had to generate the spin/power/pace by themselves.  Alot of coaches in the US won't give you their all unless you can bring fame to their club or the player is super serious about advancing to the upper echelon.   it is normal for a coach to begin with a slow pace. make it too fast and your students will not learn anything. sure the basement will win at first but you do not take into the account if that player will improve after some time he trains provided he has right coaching. also, it is unfair to directly compare by saying that a basement player wins over a player who does multiball because you havent even taken consideration if the basement player has played longer than the developing player. this is biased comparison for me. a basement player may not have the right strokes but because he has played long enough for example he can control the ball well and knows how to score. give it some time a trained player will always beat a basement player. It's discouraging to watch coaches trying to do some crazy fast hitting multiball drills with people when the student will never face anything at that pace at the level of opponent they are targeting. again your arguement even if you dont admit it places the blame on the tool not on the coach or the program used for the player who trains with multiball. you are refusing the reality that the coach on that situation you are making as an example has the problem not the tools.   But yeah for the OP, if multiball isn't helping you much, always suggest the coach provide another way to learn... theres many different roads that can lead to the same result.  Sit down with your coach and address your concerns directly. depends on how long have you been doing multiballs. you also need to consider that if you have already learned some skills that are not basically sound and correct in TT you will need time relearn some skills. i always make this as an example for my players who play with incorrect techniques and strokes - " A GLASS OF FULL OF WATER CAN NO LONGER HOLD ADDITIONAL LIQUID. SPILL THE CONTENTS FIRST BEFORE PUTTING NEW WATER." with that said, you need to relearn and master the new strokes and new motor skills. if your coach doesn't see your problems in your game and doesn't correct your errors then he is a bad coach but its never the multiball's fault

yogi_bear wrote: bbkon wrote: yogi_bear wrote: multiball drilling is the best way to learn the basic skills and strokes. most people think that if you do multiball you will already become very good. however, multibal drill is but one part of several essential methods to fully develop a game. if you are starting to develop your strokes, do not focus on winning but rather on the development of correct strokes. coupled with technical table drill, service receive and doing serves, countering after you do multiball will greatly improve your game. i wil not let people tell me that multiball is not good for beginners because in the 3 years that i am doing coaching (close to 100 kids and counting) , the ones who do multiball at the start develop faster than those who don't. sure those players who were taught just how to score will win at first but kids or players who have learned the basics thru multiballing develop better game plays yogi bear can you give me the details of drills when coaching your kids?  cant find manuals for teaching kids, how to develop forehand(the do's and donts) bbkon, this is my general program i used for kids with variations depending on each kid's progress: 1. 1st week, 2-3 days shadowing with forehand and bh drives, ball bouncing on the paddle. i use this because its better for beginners to have a better feel of the ball first and also an introduction of the strokes using shadow only. 4-7th day i start doing multiball drills for the fh and bh drives only. 2. 2-3wks time, still incorporating shadow drills on warm up exercises and maybe adding pushes to the nultiball drills. 3. 4th week to more than a month, adding footwork drills like fh side to side half table and bh-fh drills whole table. 4. 1.5 months above, this is where i start teaching loops. i start teaching brush looping against light backspin first and then progress to looping against heavy backspin wherein they need to go down and loop the ball upwards. i usually start teaching them looping the ball late or after the ball comes down on its peak for better timing. i only use on the rise timing or off the bounce for very advanced students. 5. 2 months and above, i start teaching bh loops, same procedure as the fh loop coaching. this is where i start teaching and incorporating fh - fh table drills and bh-bh drills using one ball. also this is when i start to teach service receives. its hard to find manuals for multiball drilling but i think tibhar has a multiball drill for kids found in youtube. also, people would argue that they have reached a level without doing multiball drills thats fine, but have they asked themselves what more could they have been if they used multiball drills and had proper coaching. people get tired of repetitive multiball drills. its normal. practicing table tennis to become very good requires repetitive actions until they become a reflex. people would criticize multiball as "that is china training its not applicable to every body yada yadda". the chinese has been doing that for ages and they have kids who have trained in that way, if it aint good why is it very effective in producing very good players? most people here in the forums who say multiball is crap or have other reasons will get owned by a school age kid in china who have practiced multiball session as part of his training.

If I felt my coach feed in wrong ways, what should I do? 

As example for 3 balls drill (Falkernberg), my coach will give 1. normal ball to bh side (he hope we take it as basic bh stroke) 2. long underspin ball to bh side (take it with fh topspin) 3. another long underspin ball to fh side (take it as another fh topspin) 4. repeat. IMHO, if I suddenly have the chance to face that same drill in game, I'll bh toppsin (or bh stoke) > I probably will get blocked ball so I should topspin fh > I'll get forehand block (or fh topspin) to fh side, I'll move to do fh toppsin again. I believe in this example, I should get 1. normal ball 2. block ball 3. toppsin ball or block ball. 

That was one example why I avoid my coach. It somehow disturb my rally and I need more than a week to correct back my game. 

I believe I've read all comment. Thank you for the feedback. In a nutshell, as someone said it, multiball is only as good as the coach. I'm the one who should evaluate if my training really helping or not. Discuss the matter with my coach. 

I still believe multiball is one of the great tools to improve although we'll be feed with the same ball and we'll  use only few of those drills in real games . Later, it is a matter of adaptation, experiment and experience. 

Again, thank you. 

yogi_bear wrote: bbkon, this is my general program i used for kids with variations depending on each kid's progress: 1. 1st week, 2-3 days shadowing with forehand and bh drives, ball bouncing on the paddle. i use this because its better for beginners to have a better feel of the ball first and also an introduction of the strokes using shadow only. 4-7th day i start doing multiball drills for the fh and bh drives only. 2. 2-3wks time, still incorporating shadow drills on warm up exercises and maybe adding pushes to the nultiball drills. 3. 4th week to more than a month, adding footwork drills like fh side to side half table and bh-fh drills whole table. 4. 1.5 months above, this is where i start teaching loops. i start teaching brush looping against light backspin first and then progress to looping against heavy backspin wherein they need to go down and loop the ball upwards. i usually start teaching them looping the ball late or after the ball comes down on its peak for better timing. i only use on the rise timing or off the bounce for very advanced students. 5. 2 months and above, i start teaching bh loops, same procedure as the fh loop coaching. this is where i start teaching and incorporating fh - fh table drills and bh-bh drills using one ball. also this is when i start to teach service receives. its hard to find manuals for multiball drilling but i think tibhar has a multiball drill for kids found in youtube. also, people would argue that they have reached a level without doing multiball drills thats fine, but have they asked themselves what more could they have been if they used multiball drills and had proper coaching. people get tired of repetitive multiball drills. its normal. practicing table tennis to become very good requires repetitive actions until they become a reflex. people would criticize multiball as "that is china training its not applicable to every body yada yadda". the chinese has been doing that for ages and they have kids who have trained in that way, if it aint good why is it very effective in producing very good players? most people here in the forums who say multiball is crap or have other reasons will get owned by a school age kid in china who have practiced multiball session as part of his training.

Yogi,
thanks for this it is a very good overview

bbkon wrote: yogi_bear wrote: bbkon, we practice 3-4x a week on weekdays and 2-3 hours a day. its a bit hard if you teach more than 6-7 kids per day if you have 2-3 hours only thank you for the info , i would like to learn more from you when teaching kids

bbkon, focus more on the stroke development. for the basic drills make them drill over and over again single fh-fh and bh to bh drills using multiball. you have to observe and correct their body rotation on specific joints like the waist, knees, shoulders, backswinging of the arms and snapping of the elbow. the moment have a sort of motor memory on this you can introduce fh side to side footwork using half the table, bh-bh and then bh-forehand one step combination. teaching kids how to rotate their trunk is easy when it is stationary drill that you are using. the moment they come to footwoork like the ones i mentioned above, they will need to adjust on their body rotation in order to coordinate and time it with their footwork. 

For beginners and intermediates multiply ball should be used as a warm up and to correct footwork and stroke mechanics.  The coach should be pointing out mistakes and focusing on students ability to control the ball.

power7 wrote: For beginners and intermediates multiply ball should be used as a warm up and to correct footwork and stroke mechanics.  The coach should be pointing out mistakes and focusing on students ability to control the ball. For advance players, multiply ball takes on a whole new dimension.  One common drill I've seen is working on explosive force going for the stroke.  Accuracy is not important.  What is important is striking the ball with explosive force.  Don't worry about hitting the net, or the table, but try not to hit the coach.  100 balls of that is usually a good workout, and develops players muscle memories for the kill shots.  After a long game in set 7, you'll remember this drill and ball 99 that you killed during training.

why don't you to talk to him and be open about your concerns? or can you post a video with his multiball session?

I believe that if you want to ingrain correct technique from very early then multi-ball is the way to go. I'm not talking about fast frequency multi-ball that has spin variation and moves you all around the table. I'm talking about 1 position or 2 position multi-ball.
It allows you to perform the same stroke on relatively the same type of return over and over and over again. It allows your coach to see what you're doing wrong and correct you.

With one ball, unless your partner is very very consistent you will end up getting too much variation on each stroke..which can lead to confusion and the development of bad habits.

I did multi-ball and training excercises for the first 2 2-1/2 years of playing TT. What has resulted is a decent form and decent footwork. I have the fundamental understanding of strokes down now and I feel like I can play a lot of games without introducing weird or awkward techniques into my game.

Did I wish I could do multi-ball for another 2 years or so? Yeah, I think so. Unfortunately my coach moved back to Peru and can not/do not want to pay the other resident coach $20/hr for lessons.
My old coach was great in the fact that he loved TT and he would only charge $15/lesson..and lessons often lasted 2-4 hours. We did nothing but multi-ball and footwork drills.
I was absolutely horrible when it came to playing games but in the last 6 months I've done nothing but played games. now I'm able to execute what I learned in multi-ball in real games and it's an amazing feeling.

Sure I might be a similar rating without all that training but I feel like I would reach a rating plateu much faster. I think I'll probably make it to 1800-1900 before the long, slow crawl to 2000.