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Points: 879 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

How high a ball are you talking about? Having trouble picturing what you are talking about. In my lexicon a smash is something you do vs a lob when the ball is above your head but you are referring to countering a loop. Where do you generally hit this ball relative to it's position after the bounce?

In my lexicon a smash is forcefully hitting the ball using a "flat" hit, i.e. by not putting your own spin on the ball.  So, a high lob is just one instance.  You can also smash a loop, especially if it's slow, high, and short.  You can also smash a push or chop that bounces up high enough.

In the case of smashing a loop, you have to take it early before it rises to the top of the bounce, and you need to come downward into it with your stroke.  Also, angling your paddle downward will still be necessary to counteract heavy spin on the ball.  Yes, the rubber you're using matters as to how much you need to angle the paddle to counteract the spin.

Thanks for explanation.

I call the shots you are referring to, drives or counter hits, as opposed to spin drives. Basically any shot that you are not putting spin on or hit with an open paddle face. So as an example I would say, "drive" back the loop. I guess I make a distinction because an over head ball requires a distinct downward stroke. So anything that is over my head or that I can make over my head by lowering my torso is smash. Anything lower than that is a "drive" to me.

That's cool just getting the terms straight. 


Edited by V-Griper - 06/17/2014 at 3:10pm
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Points: 3264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 9:28pm
05 for smashing would be better than some others types (a side note don't Chinese top players use their tenergy side to do the smashing with)
 you can get used to different gear and it depends what style people do and what they need from a rubber, I find i can hit with nearly any rubber except Globe 999 lol
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Any tips for smashing with inverted rubbers that are very high throw?  I keep getting this feeling that since Tenergy 05 is so good at stopping/gripping the ball that there should be something about that that should make it good for smashing spin in some way - am I completely wrong?

Actually, it's technically the reverse, but only a little bit.   

With good technique (and especially proper contact), it's almost irrelevant what type of inverted sponge you have when smashing. You're hitting the ball mostly straight on, so the rubber's throwiness*** doesn't matter too much. I both loop and smash on the forehand, but while my looping technique isn't the best, I have vintage forehand smashing technique. I've tried out pretty much every type of inverted sponge, and the difference in smashing with a rubber like Sriver (which most would say is one of the best for smashing) and Tenergy (made for loopers, and which I use on both sides - 05 on FH, 25 on BH) - is too small to make any serious difference. This is true whether you are smashing against heavy topspin, heavy backspin, anything in between, or in fast rallies. (I still often drive the local juniors crazy by playing a match where I focus on smashing both their pushes and loops.)

Having said that, I'll get off my high horse and recognize that, especially in this modern era of looping, most players don't have vintage forehand smashes. For those players (the large majority), the best advice is still to learn proper technique and practice it until it's second-nature, and don't worry about what type of sponge you have. HOWEVER - it's true that high-throw sponges are less forgiving than others, and so are not the best for smashing. But I need to emphasize that it's almost irrelevant if you have good smashing technique. 

If a player's goal is to reach the elite levels, then instead of smashing, it's far better to counterloop, especially on the forehand. But below the 2200 level, you can go either way. Below 1700 or so, it's probably an advantage to favor hitting over looping. Looping gives the larger margin for error, but it's also more difficult to perfect the technique and topspinning contact - more things can go wrong. Hitting has a smaller margin for error but is simpler to perform in a game situation until a player is well into the intermediate level. 

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Edited by larrytt - 06/17/2014 at 10:01pm
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Points: 14849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:11pm
Larry,

Thanks.  So what is vintage smashing technique?  
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Points: 971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Larry,

Thanks.  So what is vintage smashing technique?  

The short answer - good smashing technique. 
The long answer - can't really be done in words without accompanying pictures or video. But here's a pretty good video that demos and explains it, though mostly against higher balls.
Here's a video that shows some smashes against lower balls.
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Edited by larrytt - 06/17/2014 at 11:26pm
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Points: 14849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:48pm
Thanks, Larry.  I found this one too:



Edited by NextLevel - 06/17/2014 at 11:48pm
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Points: 820 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 12:11am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Thanks, Larry.  I found this one too:


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Points: 402 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 12:21am
I think this is an area where things have changed with the 40mm ball and tensor rubbers, etc.  Smashing used to be a more prevalent technique.  Back in the day the short pips penholder close-to-the-table style of play was pretty much all about smashing when you got the "weak" return.  If you look at the older matches with Waldner, Grubba, et al, there was more strategy of spin variation and ending points with the smash put-away shot.

The game has changed, and it's all about power-loop-driving.  With the 40mm ball and newer rubbers that seem to have this extra kick (IMO it's not like the same effect as the old speed glue had), the name of the game is to juice the ball with tons of spin in a way that wasn't possible before.
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Points: 1151 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 12:48am
I simply just love watching Waldner smash- while I also enjoy pretty much everything else that Waldner does, there's just something I find really clean, simple and effective about Waldner smashing.
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Points: 2338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 1:00am
I have no real data, but I feel that players smashing less is more due to changing playing styles than the equipment.
These days, players have a lot more information available to them. This has lead to a more homogenous playing style as most coaches, books and forum posts emphasise loops and spinny drives over smashes.
Example, look how fast the serve receive style of using the BH banana flick has spread since the CNT players took it on. In the old days, that would have taken years to happen.
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Points: 85 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Entering_ripcity Entering_ripcity wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Entering_ripcity Entering_ripcity wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Any tips for smashing with inverted rubbers that are very high throw?  I keep getting this feeling that since Tenergy 05 is so good at stopping/gripping the ball that there should be something about that that should make it good for smashing spin in some way - am I completely wrong?

Yes you are completely wrong. The problem is not your rubber, it's your technique. Also, why are you trying to smash spin? You need to learn how to loop off spin.
 
What is your rating level?  You tend to criticize people a lot but you haven't shared a lot about your context in order to inform us as to your practical experience with these matters so you can be entertained as seriously as you may deserve.

I suck at TT and know little about it because I've never played at an elite level, so I don't go around trying to analyze why top player win or lose matches and act like a huge know it all on this forum like u do. but I am about 500 points higher than u. Any decent player knows that equipment is really not a huge deal like u make it out to be. Saying stuff like I can't use T64 because I play close to the table is nuts. Rubber is about personal preference. If u like a rubber and feel comfortable with it then u can play well with it.
 
If you are 500 points higher than me, you are a solid 2300-2400 player.   That would place you easily amongst the best players in this forum.  Is that your rating?
 
When we say "equipment is not a huge deal", what is meant is that equipment is not the primary reason why you are at the level you are and that very often you are better off working with what you have and improving your technique and not switching indiscriminately.  This has been misinterpreted by some to mean that equipment does not matter at all, and this is quite false.
 
Here is a comment from a higher rated player on this forum who is well known to stress that equipment is not a big deal and that EJing is bad for your health:
 
"Vega Europe is great except that it bottoms out in solid loop to loop rallies. This is why I prefer omega iv Europe."
 
If I had to guess, you are likely someone like Delgado who is against the EJ trend on this forum.  Unfortunately, you are now using it as an opportunity to be extremely rude to people who you think are behind it, not realizing that there are legitimate questions tied to personal styles.  What would be of interest was if you actually contributed something substantial to understanding how TT players get better - do more of what you want to see if you really believe that it is what helps.

I thought you were 1700. My highest rating was 2260. I'm not sure if you have trained in any countries that excel at TT but if you have I'm sure you would agree that it is a humbling experience. From the global standpoint we both play TT at a very low level. I have so much to learn about this game and have little experience, I'm in no position to be teaching anyone, especially over the internet where I can't even properly access someones' game. What I can tell you is work hard, play lots of tournaments, figure out how you are going to win points, video-tape your matches, and work with a coach who is elite and driven by your success not money.

Sorry if you think I'm rude. Really I said exactly what Larry said that smashing is about technique not rubber.  Sure, there are differences between different genres of inverted rubbers like Chinese hard sponge rubbers, new-age rubbers and pre-speed glue ban rubbers and yes these rubbers have inherit strengths and weaknesses. But when people say things like T64 is not good close to the table it makes me laugh. I might find T64 good close to the table you may not, it is personal preference as I've said many times.

My whole theory on equipment is that it is not very important and is a very tiny aspect of TT. If you don't like your rubber than you should switch. But don't go switching rubbers looking for a cure for your weakness because in the long run it won't make any difference. I feel the the majority of the forum including yourself over emphasizes the important of equipment and this demonstrates a lack of knowledge. I have no problem with Ejs if you genuinely enjoy trying different equipment then go for it. But if you think searching for the perfect combo is going to make you improve, you are foolish. 


Edited by Entering_ripcity - 06/18/2014 at 6:50pm
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Points: 14849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 7:29pm
I like your humility but 2260 is not a novice player in any country and you could play on some national teams with ease (Rich DeWitt is often talking about playing for some countries but even at my lowly rating, I have beaten players on the Bermudan national team). My high is 1900 and my coach continually wonders why I can play well against or upset 2000+ players and then lose to 1600 players but let's not get into that - my rating is what it is. Health permitting, I continue to improve and because smashing hurts knees less than powerful looping, I wanted to look at it more seriously given my modest goals.

The spirit of my original post was to address smashing technique and any adjustments forced onto that by using a rubber considered not suited for it. Your response was one amongst many and thankfully not the only one. Everyone admits that equipment changes don't affect much in the long run. But to quote a famous economist, "In the long run, we are all dead."
 
The bottom line is that most EJers on this forum are not as deluded as you might think we are.  There is no need to call anyone "foolish" - you could just as well say, "you are wrong if you believe that changing equipment will radically improve your rating."   On the other hand, that would be polite.


Edited by NextLevel - 06/18/2014 at 7:57pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Points: 85 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

I like your humility but 2260 is not a novice player in any country and you could play on some national teams with ease (Rich DeWitt is often talking about playing for some countries but even at my lowly rating, I have beaten players on the Bermudan national team). My high is 1900 and my coach continually wonders why I can play well against or upset 2000+ players and then lose to 1600 players but let's not get into that - my rating is what it is. Health permitting, I continue to improve and because smashing hurts knees less than powerful looping, I wanted to look at it more seriously given my modest goals.

The spirit of my original post was to address smashing technique and any adjustments forced onto that by using a rubber considered not suited for it. Your response was one amongst many and thankfully not the only one. Everyone admits that equipment changes don't affect much in the long run. But to quote a famous economist, "In the long run, we are all dead."
 
The bottom line is that most EJers on this forum are not as deluded as you might think we are.  There is no need to call anyone "foolish" - you could just as well say, "you are wrong if you believe that changing equipment will radically improve your rating."   On the other hand, that would be polite.

If I went China I would be getting ripped apart by 8-12 year olds who have be playing for a few years. Congrats on beating the Bermudan national champ! Number 1 in Bermuda=number 10 million in china. 

Hey if think those people are foolish I think they are foolish. No reason to beat around the bush.
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Points: 14849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 10:55pm
The way we write can make it look like we disagree far more than we actually do. Hopefully, you get me better as I understand you better. Have a good evening/night!
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Originally posted by Entering_ripcity Entering_ripcity wrote:

If I went China I would be getting ripped apart by 8-12 year olds who have be playing for a few years. Congrats on beating the Bermudan national champ! Number 1 in Bermuda=number 10 million in china. 

That's some serious exaggeration. It's doubtful there's a single 8-year-old in China who plays at the 2260 level, not to mention ripping them apart. I know this because my club is full of top Chinese players and we often discuss Chinese table tennis, plus our top juniors often train in China. (And yes, I've been to China as well.) And while I'm not sure what the rating of the Bermuda champion would be, but if he's, say, 2200, then I highly doubt if the #10 millionth player in China would be better than him. For perspective, according to the Shanghai Daily (May 7, 2005, as cited in an article on Chinese table tennis I once wrote), "10 million players play regularly." China is great at table tennis, but let's not exaggerate. 

Regarding an earlier note, a 2260 player is considered advanced all over the world, just not professional level. 

Who am I speaking with? Considering that the "real name" given in your profile is bogus (there are no John Jacobs in the rating system), and that you only joined on April 19, I have a feeling I'm conversing with he who shall not be named. :) 
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Points: 1721 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2014 at 12:55am

"I thought you were 1700. My highest rating was 2260."

I'll bet a blade that this is complete BS.  What club do you play at and who is your coach dude?
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And entering an open event and losing all your matches to get a starting rating doesn't count.
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Originally posted by chronos chronos wrote:


"I thought you were 1700. My highest rating was 2260."

I'll bet a blade that this is complete BS.  What club do you play at and who is your coach dude?

Well, Larrytt said he played him earlier and he was more like a 1500 - 1600. I'll give him this: he's smart in opening a new profile that 'criticizes' the old one BEFORE the old one gets banned...
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Points: 85 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2014 at 8:09am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by Entering_ripcity Entering_ripcity wrote:

If I went China I would be getting ripped apart by 8-12 year olds who have be playing for a few years. Congrats on beating the Bermudan national champ! Number 1 in Bermuda=number 10 million in china. 


That's some serious exaggeration. It's doubtful there's a single 8-year-old in China who plays at the 2260 level, not to mention ripping them apart. I know this because my club is full of top Chinese players and we often discuss Chinese table tennis, plus our top juniors often train in China. (And yes, I've been to China as well.) <span style="line-height: 1.4;">And while I'm not sure what the rating of the Bermuda champion would be, but if he's, say, 2200, then I highly doubt if the #10 millionth player in China would be better than him. For perspective, according to the Shanghai Daily (May 7, 2005, as cited in an article on Chinese table tennis I once wrote), "10 million players play regularly." China is great at table tennis, but let's not exaggerate. </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">Regarding an earlier note, a 2260 player is considered advanced all over the world, just not professional level. </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">Who am I speaking with? Considering that the "real name" given in your profile is bogus (there are no John Jacobs in the rating system)</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">, and that you only joined on April 19, </span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">I have a feeling I'm conversing with he who shall not be named. :)</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span>
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Not true. I've trained in China a few times and there were a handful of 8-12 year olds that were easily 2350+. Remember this one who was about 2400 and maybe 9 or 10. Although age is hard to say because they all have two sets of ids one with a fake age because cheating is part of their culture.they don't tell u their real age until they trust u. You should ask Tong tong if that's true bet he would agree. Also I'm sure there are maybe 10s of millions of player over 2100 in china. Most don't play regularly. I remember watching the badmitton players mess around during there break and a handful of them were easily 2100+ just to give u an idea of how low that is in china. C'mon larry, you know me. It's your boy rick anderson; just a delusional 1600 player.

Edited by Entering_ripcity - 06/19/2014 at 8:16am
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Points: 971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2014 at 8:16am
Originally posted by Entering_ripcity Entering_ripcity wrote:

 
Not true. I've trained in China a few times and there were a handful of 8-12 year olds that were easily 2350+. Remember this one who was about 2400 and maybe 9 or 10. Although age is hard to say because they all have two sets of ids one with a fake age because cheating is part of their culture.they don't tell u their real age until they trust u. You should ask Tong tong if that's true bet he would agree. C'mon you guys already know me; It's your boy rick anderson; just a delusional 1600 player.

If cheating is part of their culture, is lying online part of yours? At least the delusional part is true. Ignoring the troll for the moment, the 8-12 age range is a huge range. There are 12-year-olds who are 2350, but not 8-year-olds. 
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Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by chronos chronos wrote:


"I thought you were 1700. My highest rating was 2260."

I'll bet a blade that this is complete BS.  What club do you play at and who is your coach dude?


Well, Larrytt said he played him earlier and he was more like a 1500 - 1600. I'll give him this: he's smart in opening a new profile that 'criticizes' the old one BEFORE the old one gets banned...


Oh thank you thank you. I'm very smart. World's best editor in the house baby.

Edited by Entering_ripcity - 06/19/2014 at 8:19am
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Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by Entering_ripcity Entering_ripcity wrote:

 
Not true. I've trained in China a few times and there were a handful of 8-12 year olds that were easily 2350+. Remember this one who was about 2400 and maybe 9 or 10. Although age is hard to say because they all have two sets of ids one with a fake age because cheating is part of their culture.they don't tell u their real age until they trust u. You should ask Tong tong if that's true bet he would agree. C'mon you guys already know me; It's your boy rick anderson; just a delusional 1600 player.


If cheating is part of their culture, is lying online part of yours? <span style="line-height: 1.4;">At least the delusional part is true. Ignoring the troll for the moment, the 8-12 age range is a huge range. There are 12-year-olds who are 2350, but not 8-year-olds. </span>
-Larry Hodges


Why you getting mad larry? Yah there are 8 year olds who are 2350 you should ask the kids at your club who have trained at top centers in china, and your Chinese imports bet they would back me up.
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Originally posted by Entering_ripcity Entering_ripcity wrote:


Why you getting mad larry? Yah there are 8 year olds who are 2350 you should ask the kids at your club who have trained at top centers in china, and your Chinese imports bet they would back me up.

Dear "World's best editor in the house," nine writing mistakes in two sentences? For shame!!!

There's as much chance of an 8-year-old being 2350 as there is of you, Rick Anderson, a 1600 player (who I've played and beat 11-0), being 2260, which is just the latest of your blatant lies. (You, training in China? Hah! If so, you didn't get much out of it, did you? But this is just another of your lies, of course.) And yes, I've gotten many estimates of the level of the players in China from both the kids who have trained there and from coaches and top players from China, and no, there are no 8-year-old 2350 players, despite your making up stuff about this and so many other things throughout this and other threads, polluting the entire forum. 

Besides the reality of there being no 8-year-old 2350 players, I could explain all the reasons why this is so (lack of coordination, lack of years of training after minimal coordination level reached, lack of size, other factors), but I'd  be conversing with a troll. Have a good discussion with yourself in the limited time you have left under your latest pseudonym. Since the moderators apparently have no way of permanently banning determined trolls/pests/habitual liars, you'll always be around to spread your lies and show off your lack of TT knowledge. You must be so proud. Feel free to have the last word - I'll be away coaching at my club with some of the top juniors around, i.e. living the dream that you only dream about as you sit at your keyboard and write silly stuff that only you think are intelligent and witty. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 06/19/2014 at 8:46am
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