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Multi Ball Training: Pros and Cons
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bonggoy View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

@ Bonggoy...

 

I'm pretty sure you understood what I meant when I said you don't see tons of normal people bringing in tubs of balls everyday to multiball themselves.  How many do you see usually who bring their own tubs.... maybe 1?  maybe 2?

 

Simply put... it's not realistic to see that when you walk in a club.  Most people are there to play games and challenge people or get formalized coaching. 

 

Do you agree?  Is that not what you see in clubs?


Nope, I can only read what is actually written and go on from there.

I can only speak to the club I go to. In our club, you see coaching, MBT, serve practice, etc. All with their tub of balls. I myself use an empty shoe box.

Define "normal" people?

Edited by bonggoy - 09/13/2011 at 4:07pm
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i say it's not required but highly preferred . it's like a fast forward button =D
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@Yogi... Calm down Mod...
 
Yeah and I still think Multiball is not the greatest or most important method for teaching beginners.  I think matchplay experience takes a higher priority than multiball for beginners.  Have I not said that from the beginning that I feel matchplay is more beneficial than multiball?  How many times do I need to repeat it.  I think I've reiterated that point maybe 10+ times already but you can't get it through head.  How many times have I said something like...
 
"A player can hit 1500 with ZERO multiball experience and 100% matchplay experience... but a player will have a hard time hitting 1500 with 100% multiball experience and 0% match play experience."
 
or
 
"Your multiball can't simulate certain situations well no matter how good of a feeder you are"
 
You admitted it yourself that multiball is a simulation... but the majority you can simulate won't be 100% the same as what you see.  It can be close... but still won't be 100%.  Wouldn't real life training vs an opponent be more of a "Pro" vs a "Con"?  Wouldn't you want to do more real life training vs more multiballing? 
 
Now answer this question for me...
 
If you had to pick ONLY 1 method of training between multiballing and real life training vs real opponents for a student who was going to play in tournies... which would you choose between the 2?
 
Real life training can accomplish the goals you have in multiball also.  It might be slower or faster in in some cases depending on the student... but you can train the exact same things.
 
Now heres my point...
 
Wouldn't real life training be a suitable ALTERNATIVE method to multiballing?  Especially when certain people don't gain as much from multiball versus actually playing against people?
 
Or do you really think "multiballing" is the only way ?
 
 
As for your China training agenda... why can't you recognize that not everyone learns in the same way?  Is that not basic difference between all human beings?  Just because China utilizes multiball, means that everyone has to follow that training method?  You're so narrow minded that you can't allow other training methods when multiball doesn't work for a particular individual?  You're saying that multiball works the best for every single person on Earth?  Well guess what... you're already wrong... because like I said... I know people who have multiballed trained for years along with other organized training and they are still low level. 
 
If that happens... wouldn't it be LOGICAL to train them another way because obviously your godly training method of multiball didn't work for them?
 
Now onto what you said about people not having basics from the start...
 
The reason why people don't have correct basics from the start is NOT EVERYONE gets coaching!  The majority of players out there just play to play so of course they aren't going to have correct strokes.  Tell me this Yogi,
 
Is it a requirement for you as a coach to have 100% correct strokes for your students?  And... is that realistic for the majority of the table tennis players out there who obivously don't have coaching and can still play with bad strokes? Are you going to go around fixing the strokes of every single person out there who just want to enjoy the game?
 
Again, if multiballing was THE hands down best way... I'm pretty sure everyone would be doing it with friends.  You can learn how to multiball for dirt cheap... just buy balls then learn how to feed slowly.  Now heres my point here...
 
Multiballing is just 1 METHOD... 1 ROAD... but there are OTHER ROADS other people can take that are just as beneficial.
 
Tell me this Yogi... you as a coach drawing from your experience....
 
If you had a student... and someone told you that you could not multiball train him... does that mean that the student can not be a good player just because they didn't multiball? 
 
Or would you have been a good coach and found other methods, other ideas to make the player just as good?
 
You say I am wrong in your later paragraphs... is it wrong for a student of the game to realize there isn't just one method (in this case multiballing) and that there are other methods they can concentrate on that may be more beneficial towards their game?
 
Is it wrong for people to question things because it might not work as well for them as it does others? 
 
Is it wrong for people to expand their minds and realize you can get to the same destination with a completely different route as opposed to someone else?
 
From your words in the last few paragraphs... you obviously wouldn't let your students question you which is sad.  You won't even consider their ideas just because they clash against yours. 
 
And the worst part is... even if they say no... you'ed force it upon them.
 
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Originally posted by bonggoy bonggoy wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

@ Bonggoy...

 

I'm pretty sure you understood what I meant when I said you don't see tons of normal people bringing in tubs of balls everyday to multiball themselves.  How many do you see usually who bring their own tubs.... maybe 1?  maybe 2?

 

Simply put... it's not realistic to see that when you walk in a club.  Most people are there to play games and challenge people or get formalized coaching. 

 

Do you agree?  Is that not what you see in clubs?


Nope, I can only read what is actually written and go on from there.

I can only speak to the club I go to. In our club, you see coaching, MBT, serve practice, etc. All with their tub of balls. I myself use an empty shoe box.

Define "normal" people?
 
Normal people as in the majority of the world who play table tennis.  As I said... if you put everyone in the world who played table tennis in a room and you partitioned them out...
 
The Normal Majority or the big chunk of people would be the people who just "play for fun"... no coaching... no lessons... they just play cause they like the game.  They go to clubs to play different people and generally have fun.
 
Then you would have the little chunk of people who are really into the game... much like people on this forum.  We like it to the point where we go to a table tennis forum to read up on it.  We ask for tips, watch videos, get lessons, etc etc.
 
Then you have the tiny tiny chunk of people who are the pros.
 
 
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Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

i say it's not required but highly preferred . it's like a fast forward button =D
 
Obviously if it was a fast forward button, everyone who multiballed would be "fast forwarded" correct?  How about the people who multiballed and didn't really improve which you do see. 
 
Looks like they weren't fast forwarded at all!
 
It can be a fast forward for some people.  It can also be a slow motion for other people. 
 
It really really depends on the person which is what I've been trying to explain to Yogi.
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Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...


Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 4:44pm
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours of the week are the majority!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

 On the whole, I agree with you, it has its uses, but for the majority, training like the Chinese national team will actually hinder their progress.
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours of the week are the majority!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

 On the whole, I agree with you, it has its uses, but for the majority, training like the Chinese national team will actually hinder their progress.
 
Exactly!  This is why your coaching makes sense and is... more importantly... REALISTIC for the AVERAGE PLAYER!
 
I understand the Chinese do have the top players right now... as did Europe at one time... and that people want to train like them... and be like them.... and use their equipment because we all in AWE of their skills... however...
 
One must be realistic of where we're going to end up.  Most people will stay between 1000-2000.  The lucky talented few might venture above 2000. 
 
You can use their training methods all you want...  but you have to realize... they've been doing it since they're kids AND they do it for like 8 hours a day... AND they got top flight coaching.  That's not a normal scenario for people!


Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 4:51pm
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners. 


Edited by kenneyy88 - 09/13/2011 at 4:50pm
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Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners. 
 
You can correct strokes within gameplay practice very very easily.  Thats why people post video of themselves on here... for people to watch and give them advice.  You don't need perfect strokes to be a good 1800-2000 player.  How many times has someone posted a video on the forum of a good player and everyone says... DAM they got ugly strokes.  Yet they can play at a high level still. 
 
You only need perfect strokes to be a top player or world class player.  Be realistic... are you going to be a top player or world class player?  If not... then just play and adapt.
 
Everyone has their own strokes... theres no such thing as a "perfect stroke."  Timo Boll has his stroke... Wang Liqin as his stroke... Kenta has his strokes.  The perfect stroke is whatever lets them play at a high level.


Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 4:57pm
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners. 
 
You can correct strokes within gameplay practice very very easily.  You don't need perfect strokes to be a good 1800-2000 player.  You need perfect strokes to be a top player or world class player.  Are you going to be a top player or world class player?
 
Everyone has their own strokes... theres no such thing as a "perfect stroke."  Timo Boll has his stroke... Wang Liqin as his stroke... Kenta has his strokes.  The perfect stroke is whatever lets them play at a high level.

Majority of people are not going to be focusing on strokes during gameplay. They will be focusing on trying to win the match. Not everyone is a Pushblocker, so when you improve, you are going to improve your strokes and footwork, etc. to become better. Unless you want to remain a beginner like you want them to be. 
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So if they don't have a picture perfect stroke they're a beginner?  Really?  You think 1500-2000 players have perfect strokes?  Are they beginners?

Comeon be real... how many times have people posted video of someone whos like 1900 and people say... DAM they got ugly strokes.  Yet they're 1900... is 1900 a beginner?
 
To me 1900 is pretty darn solid intermediate player.  And not alot of people will even hit 1900 skill.


Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 5:00pm
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The danger for the average intermediate player is that Multiball entices them into a self belief of perceived competence , and thus a mindset of matchplay that they can never full fill in competitive play simply because they don't train enough, so they go on in a match and believe they can hit the same balls that are being fed to them in training, consistency is never an issue in multiball, there are 100's of balls that just keep coming. 
Its good for total beginners, very serious young players passing up through the ranks who are training several hours daily, and pro's as an aid to their full spectrum of training program, and finally its good for use by players in between occasionally, but never at the expense of everything else that needs to be learned to get to say USATT 2200.
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

So if they don't have a picture perfect stroke they're a beginner?  Really?  You think 1500-2000 players have perfect strokes?  Are they beginners?

If you look at a 500 rating player vs a 2000 player, their strokes will generally be better. 500 rating player will be jabbing at the ball. 2000 player will be rotating their body, using their legs. Pushblockers, etc are the exception. Not everyone is a Pushblocker. 


Edited by kenneyy88 - 09/13/2011 at 5:01pm
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Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners. 

 My 'method' as you put it, has produced plenty of players of USATT 2000+ standard. You CAN drill you know.
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My humble opinion. Multiball training does what your partners can't do. You can practice with non stop action while if playing with a real opponent half of the balls would end before the program, lets say 4 shots, is complete. With multiball theres up to 100% chance of completing all the 4 balls, because you can continue even if you miss. With a partner the errors from his side and yours would end the point quite soon without the desired result.  
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

The danger for the average intermediate player is that Multiball entices them into a self belief of perceived competence , and thus a mindset of matchplay that they can never full fill in competitive play simply because they don't train enough, so they go on in a match and believe they can hit the same balls that are being fed to them in training, consistency is never an issue in multiball, there are 100's of balls that just keep coming. 
Its good for total beginners, very serious young players passing up through the ranks who are training several hours daily, and pro's as an aid to their full spectrum of training program, and finally its good for use by players in between occasionally, but never at the expense of everything else that needs to be learned to get to say USATT 2200.

Agreed completely. 
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners. 

 My 'method' as you put it, has produced plenty of players of USATT 2000+ standard. You CAN drill you know.

Not your method, talking about Rack's gameplay only method. I know so many people that just play games, and they think they are practicing. Then really they are just refining their use of their existing poor technique. 


Edited by kenneyy88 - 09/13/2011 at 5:06pm
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

The danger for the average intermediate player is that Multiball entices them into a self belief of perceived competence , and thus a mindset of matchplay that they can never full fill in competitive play simply because they don't train enough, so they go on in a match and believe they can hit the same balls that are being fed to them in training, consistency is never an issue in multiball, there are 100's of balls that just keep coming. 
Its good for total beginners, very serious young players passing up through the ranks who are training several hours daily, and pro's as an aid to their full spectrum of training program, and finally its good for use by players in between occasionally, but never at the expense of everything else that needs to be learned to get to say USATT 2200.
 
Bingo!  And most of us aren't "learning from scratch".  We have existing bad habits which we need to adapt to.  What I see in some people (NOT ALL YOGI... JUST SOME) who have multiballed is exactly what APW is seeing... they think they can hit it exactly the same as multiball when they are in the game.  But they unforced error themselves to death and they wonder why.
 
When you're learning from scratch like the kids in China for 8 hours a day... sure multiball has its uses because you have no real bad habits engrained in you... or if you're training for 4+ hours a day to be a serious tourney player... multiball is fantastic.  But MOST of us aren't... we just play!
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Well, at the expense of Multiball, get a player to be consistent at the falkenberg drill, 20/40 circuits, and see if he develops good smooth footwork and stroke play.
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Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners. 

 My 'method' as you put it, has produced plenty of players of USATT 2000+ standard. You CAN drill you know.

Not your method, talking about Rack's gameplay only method. I know so many people that just play games, and they think they are practicing. Then really they are just refining their use of their existing poor technique. 
 
Technique can be fixed and adjusted the exactly the same way.  For example, if i wanted to fix your forehand stroke within a point... I could keep giving you a long FH push within a point and have you loop it while correcting you each time I see something wrong.


Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 5:11pm
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

The danger for the average intermediate player is that Multiball entices them into a self belief of perceived competence , and thus a mindset of matchplay that they can never full fill in competitive play simply because they don't train enough, so they go on in a match and believe they can hit the same balls that are being fed to them in training, consistency is never an issue in multiball, there are 100's of balls that just keep coming. 
Its good for total beginners, very serious young players passing up through the ranks who are training several hours daily, and pro's as an aid to their full spectrum of training program, and finally its good for use by players in between occasionally, but never at the expense of everything else that needs to be learned to get to say USATT 2200.
 
Bingo!  And most of us aren't "learning from scratch".  We have existing bad habits which we need to adapt to.  What I see in some people (NOT ALL YOGI... JUST SOME) who have multiballed is exactly what APW is seeing... they think they can hit it exactly the same as multiball when they are in the game.  But they unforced error themselves to death and they wonder why.
 
When you're learning from scratch like the kids in China for 8 hours a day... sure multiball has its uses because you have no real bad habits engrained in you... or if you're training for 4+ hours a day to be a serious tourney player... multiball is fantastic.  But MOST of us aren't... we just play!

"Most of us". You probably mean most of people like you. There are a lot more people that haven't developed any strokes or bad habits yet. Because they are beginners. 
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Well, at the expense of Multiball, get a player to be consistent at the falkenberg drill, 20/40 circuits, and see if he develops good smooth footwork and stroke play.
 
Exactly right.  I used the Falkenberg Drill to train with 1 ball... 1 partner.  Thats another method... another road you can use.
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Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Well, at the expense of Multiball, get a player to be consistent at the falkenberg drill, 20/40 circuits, and see if he develops good smooth footwork and stroke play.

Multiball is the precursor to single ball rallies for beginners. You can't just use multiball alone. 
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Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

The danger for the average intermediate player is that Multiball entices them into a self belief of perceived competence , and thus a mindset of matchplay that they can never full fill in competitive play simply because they don't train enough, so they go on in a match and believe they can hit the same balls that are being fed to them in training, consistency is never an issue in multiball, there are 100's of balls that just keep coming. 
Its good for total beginners, very serious young players passing up through the ranks who are training several hours daily, and pro's as an aid to their full spectrum of training program, and finally its good for use by players in between occasionally, but never at the expense of everything else that needs to be learned to get to say USATT 2200.
 
Bingo!  And most of us aren't "learning from scratch".  We have existing bad habits which we need to adapt to.  What I see in some people (NOT ALL YOGI... JUST SOME) who have multiballed is exactly what APW is seeing... they think they can hit it exactly the same as multiball when they are in the game.  But they unforced error themselves to death and they wonder why.
 
When you're learning from scratch like the kids in China for 8 hours a day... sure multiball has its uses because you have no real bad habits engrained in you... or if you're training for 4+ hours a day to be a serious tourney player... multiball is fantastic.  But MOST of us aren't... we just play!

"Most of us". You probably mean most of people like you. There are a lot more people that haven't developed any strokes or bad habits yet. Because they are beginners. 
 
Most people who have played for hours without any coaching... have bad habits engrained.  Tell me this Kenneyy, the majority of players beginner to intermediate players you know in the US... did they get coaching right from the start before they ever played the game of table tennis?  Or were they playing for like a year or so... then wanted to get better... then decided to get coaching or started watching videos or something?  Thats the "MOST OF US" and the most common scenario you'll see.  In that case... you have a years worth of bad habits to train out.
 
In my case... I played for 2 years without coaching just for fun like any common person.  When i got coaching... I requested him to fix my strokes... and it took him around 1 month just to get stuff out of muscle memory and another few weeks just to get the new stuff in.
 
When you go into the game from nothing... you don't have to spend any time "gettin bad habits out"... you have none!  All you gotta do is get stuff in... which is why alot of Provincial Coaches only like to train kids starting out.


Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 5:21pm
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners. 

 My 'method' as you put it, has produced plenty of players of USATT 2000+ standard. You CAN drill you know.

Not your method, talking about Rack's gameplay only method. I know so many people that just play games, and they think they are practicing. Then really they are just refining their use of their existing poor technique. 
 
Technique can be fixed and adjusted the exactly the same way.  For example, if i wanted to fix your forehand stroke within a point... I could keep giving you a long FH push within a point and have you loop it while correcting you each time I see something wrong.


Unrealistic, Your opponent will never cooperate like that in a game. That is more of a drill. 
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Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Multiball was not invented when I learned to play. If you are training for anything less than 4 hours a week multiball is largely useless, you would be better off learning how to play the game.
 
BINGO!  FINALLY!
 
And the people who play for less than 4 hours a week, if you're lucky buy 1 lesson a week, are the majority!  These are the "Most beginners" I've been referring to..... not the insano China trained juniors Yogi thinks of!
 
We who actually train and play for 2-3 hours a day are the minority!
 
So for most beginners (the majority).... multiball doesn't have as much benefits as actual gameplay!
 
Now I can sleep in peace...

Gameplay will only make use of their existing strokes and will barely improve their game. Practicing is better to improve their strokes to achieve a higher level of play. Your method will only make beginners remain beginners. 

 My 'method' as you put it, has produced plenty of players of USATT 2000+ standard. You CAN drill you know.

Not your method, talking about Rack's gameplay only method. I know so many people that just play games, and they think they are practicing. Then really they are just refining their use of their existing poor technique. 
 
Technique can be fixed and adjusted the exactly the same way.  For example, if i wanted to fix your forehand stroke within a point... I could keep giving you a long FH push within a point and have you loop it while correcting you each time I see something wrong.


Unrealistic, Your opponent will never cooperate like that in a game. That is more of a drill. 

 
Your own friend wouldn't cooperate with you?  You never get long pushes to loop when you play?  You can play to win... or you can play to practice... thats totally up to you.  You're also in control of who your opponent is.  I can tell my friend... hey lets play practice games... they'ed be more than happy to.  Or I can go up to any random person and if I push short... I can get them to push long for me to practice on.


Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 5:25pm
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

The danger for the average intermediate player is that Multiball entices them into a self belief of perceived competence , and thus a mindset of matchplay that they can never full fill in competitive play simply because they don't train enough, so they go on in a match and believe they can hit the same balls that are being fed to them in training, consistency is never an issue in multiball, there are 100's of balls that just keep coming. 
Its good for total beginners, very serious young players passing up through the ranks who are training several hours daily, and pro's as an aid to their full spectrum of training program, and finally its good for use by players in between occasionally, but never at the expense of everything else that needs to be learned to get to say USATT 2200.
 
Bingo!  And most of us aren't "learning from scratch".  We have existing bad habits which we need to adapt to.  What I see in some people (NOT ALL YOGI... JUST SOME) who have multiballed is exactly what APW is seeing... they think they can hit it exactly the same as multiball when they are in the game.  But they unforced error themselves to death and they wonder why.
 
When you're learning from scratch like the kids in China for 8 hours a day... sure multiball has its uses because you have no real bad habits engrained in you... or if you're training for 4+ hours a day to be a serious tourney player... multiball is fantastic.  But MOST of us aren't... we just play!

"Most of us". You probably mean most of people like you. There are a lot more people that haven't developed any strokes or bad habits yet. Because they are beginners. 
 
Most people who have played for hours without any coaching... have bad habits engrained.  Tell me this Kenneyy, the majority of players beginner to intermediate players you know in the US... did they get coaching right from the start before they ever played the game of table tennis?  Or were they playing for like a year or so... then wanted to get better... then decided to get coaching or started watching videos or something?  Thats the "MOST OF US" and the most common scenario you'll see.  In that case... you have a years worth of bad habits to train out.
 
In my case... I played for 2 years without coaching just for fun like any common person.  When i got coaching... I requested him to fix my strokes... and it took him around 1 month just to get stuff out of muscle memory and another few weeks just to get the new stuff in.
 
When you go into the game from nothing... you don't have to spend any time "gettin bad habits out"... you have none!  All you gotta do is get stuff in... which is why alot of Provincial Coaches only like to train kids starting out.

You are talking about established club players. I am talking about beginners who are just starting out. 
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Thats fine too... and whats the most common realistic way beginners start out?  They dink the 1 ball really high back and forth and or they push.  Then they gradually can control the ball better and it gradually gets lower and lower.  Then they play games with their beginner friends just like that.  Heck I got a room full of beginners right next to me right now and thats how they're playing.  Thats how most people start out. 

Most people don't go straight into table tennis school like they do in China or get coaching from the very beginning.
 
They know nothing about strokes... they would laugh at you if you said... get a coach for 40 bucks an hour... because they're playing for fun!
 
Then if they get serious and love the game... they start reading... watching videos... maybe get a coach if they can afford it.  Is that not realistic how people start Kenneyy?  Or do you really think the majority of people start out multiballing?


Edited by Rack - 09/13/2011 at 5:31pm
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