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Serving to shortys (Mima Ito)

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abdeen View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11/18/2019 at 2:12am
Looked like opponent's were not exploiting the fact that Mima is not very tall, using serves that land very very short and very close to the net on Mima's backhand &  pulling towards even further away to her left , mixed with fast deep serves towards Mima's wide forehand breaking away towards her right and fast high-bouncing serves to the middle of the table into her right middle at awkward decision point for a shakehander-disease (somewhat like the video I saw an opponent doing to PushBlocker but deep into his backhand LOL but of course if the serve is not extremely fast she will make you pay)  
I don't know how it would help against Mima but in a close match it may. Also I noticed Mima also anticipates this tactic and moves left or right after th the opponent had tossed the ball. 
The reason I bring this up is because it may work at lower levels against short players by using the whole length & width of opponent's half of the table


Edited by abdeen - 11/18/2019 at 3:27am
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ashishsharmaait View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 2:54am
If the serve is too short, you lose the initiative as you will get a short ball or a long ball back. So you cannot prepare for an attack on the return.

Edited by ashishsharmaait - 11/18/2019 at 2:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 3:26am
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

you will get a short ball or a long ball back. 

OK . Then what other return other than short or long is there ? Or you want. ........other than a short ball that is inside the table or long ball crossing the end line
 

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

If the serve is too short, 
Not just short . Also very wide out to backhand also breaking away


Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

If the serve is too short, you lose the initiative.
Only if your serve is short and in the middle YES.  

Not if the opponent does not know if it

1.  is short and wide to short backhand and also breaking away (towards farther out of backhand) or
2.  is deep  and wide to forehand and breaking away towards even farther away to forehand or
3, to keep receiver honest crazy serves into the middle of shakehander as I explained
4.  there may be 100 other additional variations to keep receiver honest. Ask someone named Waldner 


Also again as I said , the reason I bring this up is because it may work at lower levels against short players by using the entire length & width of opponent's half of the table (and make them stretch to the fullest again & again to execute their returns an dthey will not be offensive to the fullest) with opposing side-spins combined with either top or back spins.

Finally again as I said all these may not work completely against a pro like Mima but will definitely better than getting blown off the table as she is now doing to player after table. Also again this will definitely be effective at lower levels if you take the return of short backhand ball deep & fast to forehand loop away from the receiver (hook-loop righty server to righty receiver or fade loop lefty server to righty receiver or fade-loop lefty server to righty receiver or hook loop lefty server to lefty receiver............of course much easier said than done at lower levels but not at pro levels ) 


Edited by abdeen - 11/18/2019 at 3:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 4:13am
Yes, the long short variation with very precise placement is very important. Ma Long uses it to the max to exploit positioning of his opponents. 

Against short players, the key is to move them around a lot....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 4:20am
Please let me clarify.
At any level, the main objective for a server is to gain initiative and not just not to get whooped.
A short ball is very easy to read and handle even if you are very late to the ball. You do not have to worry about your return going out of the table if you can touch it with soft hands.
You only have to worry about the height of the return and not the length.

On the contrary a half-long serve or a long serve forces the receiver to be active. If the receiver is passive, his return will most probably be outside the table and allow to be looped. If he is active, he may have to sacrifice position for getting a good quality loop in.

With a short serve, it is much easier to just push it short again, and in the case of short/long pips, float is back dead half-long.
You want to push a pips player away from the table as soon as you can at any level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 5:31am
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

Please let me clarify.
At any level, the main objective for a server is to gain initiative and not just not to get whooped.


How would an opponent whoop a short ball very wide to very wide deep backhand going furhter away even at pro level ? 
 

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

A short ball is very easy to read and handle even if you are very late to the ball. 
I wish I was as good as you ( & most players at level) in reading short dead ball or short top spins or short heavy side spins or complex long-pip serves & not pop the ball up 




Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

Please let me clarify.
 You do not have to worry about your return going out of the table if you can touch it with soft hands.

Maybe I am the only one who pops up the ball or blows it wide against heavy short top spins , or no spins 


Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

Please let me clarify.
You only have to worry about the height of the return and not the length.
  
So if you are short player, you do not have to worry about having the server returning deep & fats to other corner (much more than a taller player) ?

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

On the contrary a half-long serve or a long serve forces the receiver to be active. If the receiver is passive, his return will most probably be outside the table and allow to be looped. If he is active, he may have to sacrifice position for getting a good quality loop in.
So what you are proposing is that you never use short serves at level to any player with any height ?
Have you seen how Danny Seemiller serves most of the time ?


Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

Please let me clarify.
You want to push a pips player away from the table as soon as you can at any level.
A long pips defender for instance ? 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 6:26am
I am not advocating never using short serves. Mixing up the length and placement is important. I don't know what you are trying to say or establish Confused

Why don't you try serving very short predictably and see how it goes. Predictable serves are the easiest to handle and short predictable serves even more. Half-long serves, even if predicted by the opponent and seen early are quite safe. I guess thats what most people try to do.

In general at my modest level, I am still able to attack balls even if they are a tiny bit loose but close to the net from my BH. I don't have to loop or flip them to attack them, I can also float them long. I will try your suggestion next week, I have 1 high level BH SP player lined up for a friendly match on my trip to Beijing/Chengdu next week for the men's world cup.

Perhaps I have been taught to serve in a specific manner, but I don't have any more insight to offer.

Edit: What works best for me vs attacking players is 60% just inside the table, 20% just outside and 20% long...an occasional short serve here and there maybe.

I think that its important to push all types of players , including long pips defenders,away from the table once a rally starts. With today's equipment speed/spin don't earn as many points as it used to.




Edited by ashishsharmaait - 11/18/2019 at 6:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 10:53am
If you could serve like this and be able to not only make the ball bounce back but also break left or right, it would work very well against shortys.  I can make it break to my right but not consistently enough to use in a game.  Did it a couple times as a goof against a 5'8" friend of mine and it was hilarious.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 2:49pm
well, I think if you can consistently do the sort serve that hits the net right away, that would make this serve almost impossible to return for a majority of ppl, not just short ppl. But once you have served it, the element of surprise is gone, a fast footed player might start to move fast enough to be in place after seeing this serve once. For a short person, I can see this serve being very difficult to handle, yes.

I've been trying to do this serve (not the ghost serve, but having the ball hit the net right after the second bounce) but it is harder than it looks. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chu_bun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 10:23pm
I remember reading somewhere this kind of serves is illegal against little kids and handicap players.  Maybe the same rules applied to short players?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/21/2019 at 12:16am
Originally posted by chu_bun chu_bun wrote:

I remember reading somewhere this kind of serves is illegal against little kids and handicap players.  Maybe the same rules applied to short players?
 No serve short or back spin is illegal to kids (maybe some etiquette is applied)
I did think that server's hand was sometimes over the end line

I do those serves every day just to show customers, I did get the ball back over using a sand paper bat
but the strike rate was not good
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/21/2019 at 7:47am
Where is the rule that is is illegal to serve short to anyone? It is illegal to serve WIDE to para players, but that is the only restriction I know of where one can serve.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YoAss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/21/2019 at 8:26am
The ITTF Handbook has a condition on serves against para players: they should leave the table (after any number of bounces >0) by the end line.  So no sides, and no ghost serves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/21/2019 at 9:40am
Originally posted by YoAss YoAss wrote:

The ITTF Handbook has a condition on serves against para players: they should leave the table (after any number of bounces >0) by the end line.  So no sides, and no ghost serves.

these rules are only for wheelchair players not for standing para players.
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