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chiquita or FH flick?

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blahness View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11/06/2019 at 6:25pm
For opportunity balls on the short FH side, do you do the FH flick, or the BH chiquita? 

For me I recently discovered that it's actually not too bad to use BH chiquita from the FH side, since an opportunity ball is usually slower so you have more time to get there, and the chiquita is simply more stable as well as more deadly compared to the FH flick. But if your opponent manages to return the next ball deep to your BH you're in trouble pretty much... LOLLOL

Discussions welcome!



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ashishsharmaait View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2019 at 7:28pm
I have found that opponents find itbmore difficult to return a FH flip.
Its the variation in placement, speed and spin which gets them. Unfortunately, on my BH chiquita, I cannot get the same deception from the FH side, as I am a bit late to the ball if I use the BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2019 at 8:10pm
Thé fh flick requires so much spin acumen and perfect racket angle, the window of opportunity is so smaller than the Chiquita that, if landing deep, can give time to the receiver to get back into position.

The fh flick vs underspin is very much like hitting through a high enough chopped ball, it’s almost an art mixing the spin we see, the racket angle, the speed and acceleration of the blade at contact. The Chiquita resolves and levels the playing field by offering a much more controlled framework : no more ninja blows, those balls can now be worked out in a much safer way than hitting through.

My Chiquita is mediocre at best but if it was good, I’d unload it pushing hard on the legs to get back in position from that momentum, in 2 steps: 1) the stroke pushing up 2) at the end of the extension, push for a small side step to load the next step and 2) at the time the 2nd step is loaded, we know where the ball is coming back and we direct the legs push accordingly.

If it sounds harder to do than it is to write about it, it probably is. 

It seems like a very nice theme for a short video showing drills v. a robot:

-double bounce under spin short serve to the fh side from the robot.
-from the fh side, covering 2/3 of the table with the fh in a traditional, not too fh-aggressive to receive serves but favoring the fh, side/diagonal step twice with the playing leg ahead like for a fh push. Land and load the next step low on both legs, not for a more powerful stroke, just to store energy to get out there.
-push back hard from the legs as the stroke is executed and gravity is canceled for a very short moment during which a not so hard push from the feet will give a quick side step back in position to cover the vulnerable bh.

I shall know soon whether or not I am full of shit, I’ll try at home. Does it make sense anyway?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2019 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Thé fh flick requires so much spin acumen and perfect racket angle, the window of opportunity is so smaller than the Chiquita that, if landing deep, can give time to the receiver to get back into position.

The fh flick vs underspin is very much like hitting through a high enough chopped ball, it’s almost an art mixing the spin we see, the racket angle, the speed and acceleration of the blade at contact. The Chiquita resolves and levels the playing field by offering a much more controlled framework : no more ninja blows, those balls can now be worked out in a much safer way than hitting through.

My Chiquita is mediocre at best but if it was good, I’d unload it pushing hard on the legs to get back in position from that momentum, in 2 steps: 1) the stroke pushing up 2) at the end of the extension, push for a small side step to load the next step and 2) at the time the 2nd step is loaded, we know where the ball is coming back and we direct the legs push accordingly.

If it sounds harder to do than it is to write about it, it probably is. 

It seems like a very nice theme for a short video showing drills v. a robot:

-double bounce under spin short serve to the fh side from the robot.
-from the fh side, covering 2/3 of the table with the fh in a traditional, not too fh-aggressive to receive serves but favoring the fh, side/diagonal step twice with the playing leg ahead like for a fh push. Land and load the next step low on both legs, not for a more powerful stroke, just to store energy to get out there.
-push back hard from the legs as the stroke is executed and gravity is canceled for a very short moment during which a not so hard push from the feet will give a quick side step back in position to cover the vulnerable bh.

I shall know soon whether or not I am full of shit, I’ll try at home. Does it make sense anyway?


Yes with the chiquita you can push off your right leg (which is in front of the table) to get back into position, I use that a lot, and in fact I've had scenarios where I did cover the BH after a chiquita from the FH corner (albeit just a block/counter, not a loop). 

FH flick against heavy sidespin/underspin balls off a good short push which popped high is extremely difficult imo, I just don't have the stability to land those shots consistently because of the weird spin... now I really admire those who can do it consistently due to the insane precision it takes to execute them! 

Tbh even when I'm not in position for the chiquita, I even prefer to give up the opportunity by trying to mess up the opponent's timing by a combination of a short return, a sideswipe or even a hard fast long push, rather than take the risk of a FH flick. 


Edited by blahness - 11/06/2019 at 8:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2019 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I have found that opponents find itbmore difficult to return a FH flip.
Its the variation in placement, speed and spin which gets them. Unfortunately, on my BH chiquita, I cannot get the same deception from the FH side, as I am a bit late to the ball if I use the BH.

haha, you must be quite good at the FH flip Smile Do you do a lot of hard flips, or more soft-ish flips with a heavier focus on placement and timing disruption?

and yes, the footwork requirements of using BH chiquita for FH short balls is higher than FH flips...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2019 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

haha, you must be quite good at the FH flip Smile Do you do a lot of hard flips, or more soft-ish flips with a heavier focus on placement and timing disruption?

and yes, the footwork requirements of using BH chiquita for FH short balls is higher than FH flips...

I am not yet an expert in it, but over the past 6-7 months, I have realized 2 things:
1. Only having a BH flick makes your predictable
2. You leave yourself open to long and wide pushes to BH corner
3. If you attack to the FH, you leave yourself open to a counter off the BH flick to the middle FH or wide FH. Counter to the BH is more manageable as it is more natural to get back into position.
4. If you attack to the BH from the FH corner with BH flick, you can get a ball to wide FH.
5. If you move for a BH flick and the ball is a little longer than you expect, you have to really dig in, twist and do late a FH loop.

On the contrary for the FH flick:
1. More easier to vary spin and pace
2. If the ball is short but over the net, you can risk finishing off the point with a flat lick
3. You can do a side wipe, short-push, and slow flip, without affecting position.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2019 at 6:27am
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

haha, you must be quite good at the FH flip Smile Do you do a lot of hard flips, or more soft-ish flips with a heavier focus on placement and timing disruption?

and yes, the footwork requirements of using BH chiquita for FH short balls is higher than FH flips...

I am not yet an expert in it, but over the past 6-7 months, I have realized 2 things:
1. Only having a BH flick makes your predictable
2. You leave yourself open to long and wide pushes to BH corner
3. If you attack to the FH, you leave yourself open to a counter off the BH flick to the middle FH or wide FH. Counter to the BH is more manageable as it is more natural to get back into position.
4. If you attack to the BH from the FH corner with BH flick, you can get a ball to wide FH.
5. If you move for a BH flick and the ball is a little longer than you expect, you have to really dig in, twist and do late a FH loop.

On the contrary for the FH flick:
1. More easier to vary spin and pace
2. If the ball is short but over the net, you can risk finishing off the point with a flat lick
3. You can do a side wipe, short-push, and slow flip, without affecting position.

Thanks

You're right, but if it's an opportunity ball, I think the aim of a Chiquita from that FH corner is to put so much quality in the shot to win the point outright, as opposed to a FH flick which is just riskier imo and a pain to train...

Random Eureka:I just thought of something that could solve the problem of FH short opportunity balls. It's a thoracic rotation powered over the table FH sidespin loop. I think in theory it would work, but gotta test it out! 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2019 at 8:03am
A major part of smart TT is knowing what your footwork can let you get away with.

A lot of people find Chiquita easier to execute but you need to know well how much table you can cover on the next ball!  Not going to be the same for everyone. 


Edited by Baal - 11/07/2019 at 8:03am
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