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Dealing with muscular soreness

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    Posted: 11/03/2019 at 10:55pm
What do you guys do? 
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Rest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 7:24am
I have tennis elbow and the only thing I should do is stop playing.
But I don´t and the pain just get worse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 7:59am
Depends on when/where  it happens and how intense and what duration.  And is it muscle or joints or tendons?

OP has not provided much info.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 8:03am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

I have tennis elbow and the only thing I should do is stop playing.
But I don´t and the pain just get worse.


Tennis elbow is not muscle soreness.  It is tendon degeneration and inflammation.  The only solution is rest or to change something about the way you play.  Probably both.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 8:53am
For me it's mainly in the legs lol...everywhere else is not that bad!
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Try Absorbine Jr. ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 9:09am
Post exercise soreness, 24 to 48 he after exertion is pretty normal even for very fit athletes after a hard workout.  (It is referred to as delayed onset muscle soreness, or DOMS).  Some people think a foam roller helps reduce that.  If your legs hurt all the time that is different. Especially knee pain.

Edited by Baal - 11/05/2019 at 12:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 11:11am
Depending on how hard and serious you are training and how bad your fatigue is or if it is something else...Like an injury or weakness hanging around.

I would try

Stretch well before, Stretch well after.
Then Stretch a bit more.
Foam roller as Baal said is handy.

Try and Strengthen and increase endurance in legs with targeted training like squats, skipping and running speed and endurance training.

This may sound simple but rest days are needed even if you are young and very fit or practice another element of the game like service, return etc.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 1:37pm
If specific muscles are sore, then work on making those stronger.

For example, after playing, my calf muscles used to be sore the next day. I started doing calf raises, working my way up to 50 reps, 3-4 X per week. No more soreness. Repeat the process for other muscles.

In any targeted exercise, start slow and work your way up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

I have tennis elbow and the only thing I should do is stop playing.
But I don´t and the pain just get worse.


Me too.  I've been jacking with it for 2 years now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 1:52pm
"Tennis elbow is not muscle soreness.  It is tendon degeneration and inflammation.  The only solution is rest or to change something about the way you play.  Probably both."

When I started playing TT seriously and training with a coach I was working full time using a computer (think of my arm gripping the mouse), then I would go home and practice playing guitar for who knows how many hours. So I was using my right elbow quite a lot. I ended up with tennis elbow and since the pain would not go away I went to the doctor. They supplied an injection that stopped the swelling to the tendon. I think the actual name is tendinitis. However, I had to stop playing guitar for 2 years. When I practice the pain will come back depending on how hard I practice. Sucks because I was making good progress with my guitar playing.

When playing TT, I have seen many good players suffer from back pain as well. I get some back pain too and when this happens I take it easy for a week or two. Getting older sucks man! It also gets longer to recover. Hot/cold patches can help. I sometimes use Voltaren to alleviate the pain.

Knees too will hurt, but I solved that by adding more cushioning on my TT shoes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 3:37pm
Muscle soreness, same techniques as any other sport. Having said that, I don't think anything has actually been proven to reduce or quicken the recovery of muscle soreness -- outside of steroids! 

Best thing you can do is get some good sleep and let those little cells repair the damage :) 

There are tons of other methods people use, but the results seem to vary from person to person. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Muscle soreness, same techniques as any other sport. Having said that, I don't think anything has actually been proven to reduce or quicken the recovery of muscle soreness -- outside of steroids! 

Best thing you can do is get some good sleep and let those little cells repair the damage :) 

There are tons of other methods people use, but the results seem to vary from person to person. 

Yes.   Steroids have that effect (both glucocorticoids and testoserone). Banned by WADA obviously.  Interestingly ibuprofen not so much. 

There are some small clinical trials that suggested deep tissue massage can help  slightly, but like most studies of those kinds of treatments, placebo controls were inadequate. I have posted an abstract from a study on foam rollers below.

There is an emerging consensus in the sports medicine literature that stretching before or after workout does not reduce soreness or prevent injury, and stretching before activity can impair performance.   (Most of what I have read on this pertains to cycling and running).  Some would say the jury is still out but the larger studies are not very encouraging.  I still do some stretching myself because it feels good.  I dont expect much else out of it.


Edited by Baal - 11/04/2019 at 6:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 6:34pm
One last one. 

PLoS One. 2019 Jan 25;14(1):e0210318. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0210318. eCollection 2019.

Dynamic stretching alone can impair slower velocity isokinetic performance of young male handball players for at least 24 hours.

Author information

1
Sport Science Program, College of Arts and Sciences, Qatar University, Doha, Qatar.
2
National Sports Medicine Programme, Excellence in Football Project, Aspetar - Orthopedic and Sports Medicine Hospital, Doha, Qatar.
3
ASPREV Department, Aspetar Orthopedic and Sports Medicine Hospital, Doha, Qatar.
4
School of Human Kinetics and Recreation, Memorial University of Newfoundland, St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada.
5
AHP Research Centre, Aspetar, Qatar Orthopaedic and Sports Medicine Hospital, Doha, Qatar.

Abstract

There are many adult studies reporting static stretch (SS)-induced deficits and dynamic stretch (DS) performance improvements shortly after the intervention. However, there is only a single study examining stretch-induced performance changes with youth at 24 hours' post-stretch. The objective of this study was to examine physiological responses of young trained athletes at 24-hours after experiencing SS or DS protocols. Eight young male, elite handball players (age: 16.1±5.1 years) were tested prior to-, 3-minutes and 24-hours following the three conditions (DS, SS, Control) in a randomized and counterbalanced order. Similar volumes of SS (2 repetitions of 75s for each leg) and DS (5 repetitions of 30s for each leg) involved one stretch each for the quadriceps and hamstrings. Tests included (i) two 4s maximal voluntary isometric contractions (MVC) at 60° of knee flexion with 2-min rest, (ii) two maximal isokinetic contractions each at 60°/sec and 300°/sec with 1-min rest, and (iii) two drop jumps with 30-sec rest. To simulate a full warm-up, dynamic activity including 5 minutes of aerobic cycling (70 rpm; 1 kilopond), 4 submaximal isometric contractions and 4 drop jumps were instituted before the pre-tests and following the interventions. Two-way repeated measures ANOVAs revealed that 1) both the SS and control conditions exhibited knee extensor 60°.s-1 (SS:-10.3%; p = 0.04, Control: -8.7%; p = 0.07) and 300°.s-1 (SS: -12.9%; p = 0.005, Control: -16.3%; p = 0.02) isokinetic deficits at post-test, 2) DS impaired knee flexor 60°.s-1 isokinetic work and power-related measures at post-test (Work: -10.1%; p = 0.0006; Power: -19.1%; p = 0.08) and at 24-hours' post-test (Work: 9.9%; p = 0.023; Power: -9.6%; p = 0.01), 3) DS (12.07% and 10.47%) and SS (13.7% and 14.6%) enhanced knee flexor 300°.s-1 isokinetic force and power-related measures compared to control. In conclusion, testing-induced knee extensor isokinetic impairments were counterbalanced by DS, however the hip flexion DS could have produced minor muscle damage for at least 24-hours decreasing knee flexor forces and power at 60°.s-1.


Translation, stretching before you play may hurt your performance.  And while studies on so-called static stretching concluded this quite a long time ago, this is a study on so-called dynamic stretching. There is no good evidence that it reduces sports injuries or affects DOMS.



Edited by Baal - 11/05/2019 at 12:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

I have tennis elbow and the only thing I should do is stop playing.
But I don´t and the pain just get worse.


Tennis elbow is not muscle soreness.  It is tendon degeneration and inflammation.  The only solution is rest or to change something about the way you play.  Probably both.
Drop here!

and after the elbow tendinitis is over, strengthening exercises Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 6:51pm
Pubmed is the best place to search the biomedical research literature. Scientists all over the world use it and it is free.  You can type in key words like a Google search, or the name of an author, etc.  What you get will be abstracts but there are often links to full articles you can get for free.  Obviously, these are very technical articles but people can still find some of the answers they need.  Here is the link:


Here is an example.  Using Pubmed, I just typed in the key words "stretching cycling performance" and found this one.  (I won't tack on the whole abstract, basically they concluded that static stretching will hurt your performance if you are a road cyclist).

J Strength Cond Res. 2011 Nov;25(11):2980-4. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0b013e318234e55f.

Time course of the effects of static stretching on cycling economy.


I hope at least some forum members will find this  useful.  Many will know about it already.


Edited by Baal - 11/04/2019 at 7:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2019 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

If specific muscles are sore, then work on making those stronger.

For example, after playing, my calf muscles used to be sore the next day. I started doing calf raises, working my way up to 50 reps, 3-4 X per week. No more soreness. Repeat the process for other muscles.

In any targeted exercise, start slow and work your way up.

+1

There is treating muscle soreness vs preventing muscle soreness.  2 different things altogether ...

Stretching, foam roller, massage, ibuprofen, doing light movement/exercise, and of course resting are all ways to treat muscle soreness.  They are going to do virtually nothing for you as far as preventing muscle soreness though.

Preventing muscle soreness is more about preparing your body for intense efforts by building up with regular exercise that is specific to the sport's particular mechanics, i.e. movements.  You can do this by simply just participating in the sport only, starting with shorter and lower effort training sessions, and then ramping up to longer and more intense efforts along with proper rest in between training sessions.  You can also use cross training, but you need to find other exercises or activities that complement your targeted sports mechanics.  Finally, you can be very precise by using weight room and/or plyometric exercises that specifically target your sport's motions.

The most important factors are having the correct effort level and regularity of your training sessions.  If you do it right then you should be able to build up your training sessions such that you do not experience much muscle soreness along the way.  If you don't maintain your workouts with enough regularity you will not progress and may even go backwards in preparing for intense effort of competition.

I have found that cross training can really help build strength, as well as it provides a respite from playing TT only, which can lead to injury by too much repetition.  For example, I do a lot of cycling (road and mountain bike) as well as a lot of X-C skiing and ice hockey in winter, and these activities are excellent at building a lot of lower body power.  I need to find other activities though to better prepare for the twisting, turning, and lunging movements that are common in TT.

Age is also a major factor.  In my 20's and 30's I did more varied activities (e.g. rock climbing, running, hiking, cycling, tennis, squash, volleyball, basketball) and could seem to transition to new activities pretty quickly without much muscle soreness issues.  Now in my mid-50's it is quite different and I'm much more careful to start slowly and ramp up when switching into an activity that I haven't been doing for awhile.  For instance, if I haven't been running for a few months I know that when I start up again my first run will be very short.  Unlike in younger days, if I just dart out and do a 3-mile run I will be sore as hell for a week!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lasta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2019 at 3:51am
Light stretching and rest are ideal.

If you really have to push through the pain and keep going:

1. A combination of Paracetamol and Ibuprofen.
2. Codeine, for stubborn all over soreness, but mix with caffeine to counter-act the "slowdown effects".
3. Indomethacin in localized sprays.

I find the whole Tiger Balm and  Eucalyptus oil stuff only works for temporary relief/distraction, won't keep you going. Topical lidocaine helps, but the duration is low too, also numbs the muscle group so you can't use it effectively.

Paracetamol, Ibuprofen and Indomethacin shouldn't be problems for anti-doping tests. Not sure about Codeine.


Edited by lasta - 11/05/2019 at 3:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2019 at 7:45am
by the way, I don't find muscle soreness to be that painful, I'd say it's a rewarding feeling for me :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote man_iii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2019 at 7:58am
my bad :-D


Edited by man_iii - 11/05/2019 at 8:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2019 at 11:52am
I am surprised nobody mentioned iboprufen and other tylenol solutions:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2019 at 12:28pm
Here is a fantastic review article on the topic of delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS). It covers pretty much every possible treatment option that has been proposed and summarizes the studies as to whether they work or not (and whether they make things worse).  It covers everything that has been mentioned here plus a bunch of things that haven't been mentioned (cryotherapy, compression, etc.).  It is so comprehensive and readable I almost think we should sticky it.








Edited by Baal - 11/05/2019 at 12:36pm
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Get good sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joo Se Kev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2019 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:


Preventing muscle soreness is more about preparing your body for intense efforts by building up with regular exercise that is specific to the sport's particular mechanics, i.e. movements.  You can do this by simply just participating in the sport only, starting with shorter and lower effort training sessions, and then ramping up to longer and more intense efforts along with proper rest in between training sessions.  You can also use cross training, but you need to find other exercises or activities that complement your targeted sports mechanics.  Finally, you can be very precise by using weight room and/or plyometric exercises that specifically target your sport's motions.

The most important factors are having the correct effort level and regularity of your training sessions.  If you do it right then you should be able to build up your training sessions such that you do not experience much muscle soreness along the way.  If you don't maintain your workouts with enough regularity you will not progress and may even go backwards in preparing for intense effort of competition.



This 100%. Slowly building up to a given training volume and engaging the repeated bout effect by splitting your training into smaller, more frequent chunks is a great way to prevent excessive soreness. Beyond that, performing a proper warm-up (raise body temperature, dynamic stretches, movement prep, etc.) and supporting your training with proper nutrition and plenty of sleep is also super important.

Want to do a bit extra?

Post workout massage, compression garments, and post workout low intensity cycling as a cool-down all have some research supporting their efficacy. 

I would avoid frequent ice baths or heavy NSAID usage as both of those protocols have been shown to potentially interfere with training adaptations.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2019 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Joo Se Kev Joo Se Kev wrote:


I would avoid frequent ice baths or heavy NSAID usage as both of those protocols have been shown to potentially interfere with training adaptations.



Yes.  Very good point worth making. 

Plus the NSAID use can be pretty hard on you.
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