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Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand? |
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friendship
Super Member Joined: 09/03/2010 Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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with euro-type loop shorter player looses on speed
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friendship
Super Member Joined: 09/03/2010 Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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as with all other answers, no arguments for disagreement. I gave some arguments, but all posts disagreing with my view are based on 'I don't think...'. ok, everybody has the right for opinion, no qustion about that. but what's the validity and worth about this opinion if not backed up with real arguments? so far, I see none
I don't say that I'm right. but so far I am not receiving proper contraarguments, I expect better. if existent Edited by friendship - 10/09/2010 at 8:40am |
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smackman
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The Chinese do thier loops from aged 7 and end up good using that method the the Euros top players are the same using thier methods, Its got nothing to do with height its just thier training systems. for the rest of us we all end up with a slight mixure as if we loop a close one to our bodies, it has to be Euro and if you are reaching you end up doing more Chinese style.
but overall a loop is a loop and you can only do it properly by practice and getting your feet right
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I respectfully disagree about comment that smaller body types are more likely to win. My evidence is Gatien, Schlager, Persson, Waldner, WLQ. They account for a substantial portion of the last several world championships. Plus Boll and Samsonov, a couple of guys who havent won world championships but who are real good.
Of course there are smaller great players too. Bengtsson, Ma Lin, KLH, Wang Tao, Kreanga. The great thing about table tennis is that almost any body type can win as long as one is fit, talented and dedicated. And otherwise genetically perfect for the sport, and with the good fortune to be seen at a young age, and coached by good people in an environment where there is competition good enough to let you get good. (Which pretty much rules out any American player). The stars have to align! The Chinese are great because they are well coached from age of practically zero and are selected from a huge pool of great players who are turned into professionals by age 11 and then refined by armies of coaches who are paid to think and innovate about table tennis because a huge budget is devoted to it. The level of competition a Chinese has to go through just to make a provincial team is insane. Power of numbers. Same reason they make lots of good footballers and Brazil and basketball players in the US |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Great observation. |
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APW46
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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friendship
Super Member Joined: 09/03/2010 Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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whos comment would it be?
if you thought mine, in that case you weren't reading carefully
but the fact that current best euro players are in most cases higher folks is in fact interesting
one question about chinese style: do you think that their mos modern style of play is matter of tradition, or chinese think that this is the most succesful style of play suited to them
is it dictated by equipment, or is equipment dictated by needs of desired gamestyle and players characteristics?
because, if I was chinese, I would be thinking of equipment which is in service of game demand, not about players which are in service of equipment industry (in socialism/communism industry is ruled by government, so no problem with that)
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friendship
Super Member Joined: 09/03/2010 Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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pure law of physics. with equal radial speed (rpm), and shorter radius, you get less linear speed at th moment of ball hit. to increase the speed, you can either increase speed of body rotation (which has limits), or stretch your arm which will increase radius, which increases speed
if you were shorter armed guy, stretching arm would be more or less the only way by which you could match the speed of top players which are tall guys. otherwise you would be speed inferior
and that was in fact reason of WLQ's killing FH speed I think. with his arm lenght and chinese loop technique his FH attacks should be faster than of his compatriots', as consequence of same law of physics Edited by friendship - 10/10/2010 at 1:56pm |
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APW46
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Anton Chigurh
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Awesome video, thanks for posting. I agree (as I must, since it is a law of physics) with the statement that, all other things being equal, the "longer the arm the greater the speed". (Please forgive the clumsy generalization but I'm trying to be brief.) Nonetheless, what I think APW's vid demonstrates is that there are still other factors to consider. Gatien's timing is impeccable (at least in 99% of the shots in that montage). I don't think I saw one ball drop below the apex of its bounce before it was hit, which has an effect on power as well. So although in isolation an extended arm will increase speed, there are also other factors to consider... like timing, etc. There are also even practical considerations, like rate of stroke recovery. So, like many people have mentioned many times already in the endless debates of "Chinese/Hungarian/Straight-arm loops vs. European/Compact/Chicken-wing loops", there are many variables involved and either stroke can take a person to victory... assuming the rest of their game is tight. |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1029 |
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hi guys I should have posted the content of this thread HERE instead...I'll close it now.
I would agree with friendship about the blade going faster with a straight arm. However one can argue that the rotational speed might then be lower and, as a final result, speed of the blade at contact might then be the same...
Would acceleration be the same too?
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Perhaps speaking in terms of angular momentum will clear up the confusion?
Angular momentum is a function of mass, its linear velocity, and its distance from a center. For simplicity, let's just isolate the hitting arm for this discussion and treat angular momentum as the mathematical product of the arm's mass, length of the arm's swing, and swing speed. Since the mass of the arm remains unchanged, the only way to increase the angular momentum, and thus the ball speed, is to increase the product of the length of swing and swing speed. If we assume that the strength of the arm is constant then the swing speed should be inversely proportional to the arm length; in other words, one can swing faster with a bent arm than with a straight arm. As such it becomes an optimization problem: finding a combination of arm length and arm speed that one can generate that will maximize the angular momentum and resulting ball speed. Of course, this simplification ignores any biomechanical advantage or disadvantges of the bent arm vs straight arm configuration. It could be that the straight arm makes better use of the kinetic chain, leading to additional swing speed. |
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stiltt
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One more word: Gatien contacts with the ball very early; it even seems he will -if he can-systematically do so while the ball is still rising and has not reached the highest point of its trajectory --> he is so close to the table he has less time to back swing so his stroke requires a more compact stance and the elbow is much closer to the body. |
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Anton Chigurh
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racquetsforsale, if I haven't yet mentioned that I've enjoyed every post of yours that I've read, then let me do so now . I'm very encouraged to see someone such as yourself join this community. Sorry for the temporary derailing... back to the discussion! |
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infinite_loop
Super Member Joined: 12/21/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 154 |
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Any model that reduces the human body to a simple lever is absurdly simplistic. Multiple joints come into play in almost any stroke. Mechanics of kinematic chain is more complex than just multiplying rpm and radius (Otherwise, how do you explain the tip of a whip breaking sound barrier?). Also, efficiency of muscles varies on the position they are in. These factors likely influence the racket speed more than just the length of the lever. I am not necessarily saying euro loop is superior; just that the "larger radius = more speed" explanation is far from convincing. Edited by infinite_loop - 10/10/2010 at 4:25pm |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Thanks, Anton.
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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"Perhaps speaking in terms of angular momentum will clear up the confusion?" I think the term you are looking for is what you are looking for is moment of inertia. The moment of inertia goes up with the radius squared. Straight arms are harder to accelerate than bent ones. "As such it becomes an optimization problem: finding a combination of arm length and arm speed that one can generate that will maximize the angular momentum and resulting ball speed." This is true if the player is strength limited.
Edited by pnachtwey - 10/10/2010 at 4:08pm |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1029 |
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yep...that's what I meant above by saying angular speed may decrease with a straighter arm.
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stiltt
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Let's ask another question: How quickly the other player will have the ball come back at him/her once we looped it? (we assume the quicker the better for us)
Let's say we have coming at us a ball that is loopable with a straight arm from mid distance as it has finished rising (and maybe starts falling) or loopable "gatien style" from very close to the table while the ball is still rising.
What is the best result?
It's the same to me with a slight advantage for Gatien IMO.
1) from mid distance I have time to back swing with a straight arm and go for a straight arm loop. So I do it but I give more time to the other player to be ready to react to whatever we send him/her.
2) close to the table I do not have time to back swing with a straight arm and go for a straight arm loop. So I just loop it with a compact stance but since I contacted with the ball earlier the other player will have less time to do anything with what's coming at him/her.
If I can do 2) I will do 2). IMO the guy who can stay and loop close to the table is the BOSS OF THE TABLE. Being away from the table means somebody somehow pushed me away. Gatien would never go away if he doesn't have to. He made a big point playing that way and was rewarded with a World title . GOSH HE IS SO FAST ON HIS FEET!!!
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racquetsforsale
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Pnachtwey,
I think angular momentum is appropriate when discussing the collision between ball and paddle. I could be wrong; it's been a long time since I reviewed my physics. I agree that a straight arm is harder to accelerate and that the optimization scenario assumes limited arm strength. Those are assumptions I stated in my original post. |
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friendship
Super Member Joined: 09/03/2010 Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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of course that you can use wrist or elbow in FH also in getting additional speed, but you can do it whether you use straight position arm or bent elbow. straightening arm during loop adds to your speed and that is a fact. shorter arm is disadvantage in terms of speed and that is a fact too
I no longer plan to discuss it because I consider I have said all I had. also, I will stick to my opinion that I think chinese have clever approach to TT for themselves, and that this is no coincidence but systematic approach which excels their strengths and compensates their minuses Edited by friendship - 10/10/2010 at 4:20pm |
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APW46
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the difference between delivery speeds of cricket bowlers;
and Baseball pitchers is similar, infact baseball pitchers have the edge, Cricket bowlers however, can be running a full sprint on delivery, and MUST deliver with a straight arm (bending is unlawful)
The greater release speed of the B/ball pitcher is arrived at by complex mechanical intergration of the legs torso and arm, the Cricket bowler by the slingshot action of a straight arm and forward motion, both achieve the same goal, but in different ways, kind of my point really. Edited by APW46 - 10/10/2010 at 4:26pm |
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friendship
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I don't see full straightened arm as big disadvantage to acheiving same acceleration as with semi bent elbow, although you have some point that it might harden it a bit to acheive it. however chinese top players demonstrate it can be done
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stiltt
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+1
Both straight arm loop away from the table and 90deg (or more if possible- speed of blade at contact remaining equal) bent arm loop close to the table lead to about the same result.
The subject is open to an infinite discussion .
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friendship
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the moment when ball is hit in both euro and chinese loop is the moment when acceleration already stopped (if we leave out possible wrist/elbow movement, we can do it since it does not have comparative significance)
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friendship
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remarkable speed, fast rotation, very compact. but these fast shots shown on videos are drives (you can call it loopdrives if you like). what about pure loops?
many would be amazed with speed of my shots in game, produced with relatively slow equipment but consistency and ability to produce them is another story, yet in pure speed of shot i think its top. i'm 180
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friendship
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watched the full gatien video. I must say, his style of attacking is ideal, what a player. he has speed in all segments. difficult to read also Edited by friendship - 10/10/2010 at 5:24pm |
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APW46
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lets just clear one thing up, this guy was looping with a straight arm when the Chinese were still flat hitting, and for the most part had not embraced loop technique at all;
Jonyer, world singles champion 1975.
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blahness
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This is my 2 cents...
Actually in recent years, Waldner has developed quite a lethal straight-arm powerloop if you watched his recent matches. He still retained his useful bent arm Euro loops especially when under pressure, or when he does controlled loops, especially when borrowing power from the opponent. Besides, when dealing with balls close to the elbow, Wang Hao often uses an unorthodox bent arm technique of hitting the ball. Even Timo Boll, the Euro superstar, is seen to use some "straight-arm" loops at times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxAyfpyPnrg look at 3:15 I think it's an issue about the height of the players. Samsonov uses a bent arm looping method as he already has the needed power, and he desperately needs to improve on his recovery time(larger players normally are slower). Wang Liqin and Oh Sang Eun use a straight arm technique. WLQ's FH is way faster than Oh due to his physical fitness which can compensate for the loss in recovery time, and WLQ plays a little bit further from the table which gives him more time to launch those powerful FHs. Oh's FH on the other hand is quite a bit weaker than the other players unfortunately, which I think is due to his oversized heavy bat, and an overly large stroke. Boll uses a bent arm predominantly as his specialty is his control loop which is very stable and deadly, and also he plays very close to the table. For me, it's pretty simple, both have their pros and cons. I think straight arm technique has a slower recovery time but more power, but bent arm has better recovery times but less power. Also bent arm is better for dealing with balls to the elbow, while straight arm is better for dealing with balls to the extreme forehand. One has to master both in the modern game, otherwise the weaknesses of either would be used by your opponent to manipulate you.
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ttTurkey
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To me Gatien's forehand was the evolution of the 38mm speed-glueing player. I'm not sure that his technique would be possible (or at least as effective) now. Two-winged prowess seems more important than it was then.
I remember Michel Gadal (his coach) saying that the key to his success was not the speed of his forehand but how early he took it. His theory was that taking the ball early takes time away from you but double the amount of time away from the opponent (e.g. if you change you contact point to 30cm closer than in the past, the ball travels a 60cm shorter distance from your opponent's perspective because it has to travel that 30cm both ways). One of the best matches I ever saw anyone play was at the 97 World Champs. Wang Tao from China had been in awesome form in the teams but Gatien took him apart 3-0. He did have one major weakness though; he was terrible against choppers. |
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