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Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2010 at 6:28am
The best example I know is fatt's avatar.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2010 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by ichini ichini wrote:

Hi everybody,do any of you know what DVD teaches how to perform a european  forehand loop?I've been using a chinese forehand loop and would like to learn the european forehand loop,i feel that learning both of the loops can be some thing good,like combining both of them together of using them in different situations.so any help will be greatly appreciated.Thanks in advance.


That's what I'm thinking too but still you will use one more often than the other depends on which type of rubbers you are using.

You can youtube and search for Timo Boll forehand, Michael Maze forehand or probably various European players that have the compact loop.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2010 at 6:03pm
Regarding the footage of Chinese forehand loop, he loops the ball after top-of-the-bounce and I don't know if the Chinese are doing that these days.  But maybe they do it when they are that far from the table.  Wonder how they do it close or mid-range to the table.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ichini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 4:57am
hi and thanks firehorse,i think i will be using the european one more since i need have recover fast incase my opponent blocks my loop,and also because i'm using a japanese rubber.but do you know any DVD which teaches the european forehand loop?and also a DVD which teaches the european backhand loop.Thanks a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 5:07am
I do find this a strange subject, I mix with many coaches and players within the UK and I have never had a conversation about 'China vs Euro' loop stroke. Sometimes individual players are the topic of conversation, but a loopdrive is a loopdrive, and is personal to the player rather than a nation. Working backwards, the difference in Rubbers affects the stroke and what is possible, but I really think this is a USA point of view, looking one way towards Europe, and the other towards Asia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicefrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 5:32am
It's just that most Chinese players hit a full loop hit with a straight arm and follow throw to their opposite shoulder with an elliptical return, most European players hit with a bent elbow and finish in front of their face and return back down the same path. I think one or the other is a natural evolution depending on which type of rubber you grew up with, it seems if you have swapped from one rubber to the other at some point you will have a mixture style like I ended up with
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 6:59am
Originally posted by Imzadim Imzadim wrote:

I don't think either stroke is better or worst. It probably depends more on your body type.
 
that sounds very true. when I was thinking about two different loop strokes, it crossed my mind that it is both easier and more convenient to use chinese type stroke to a shorter guy. first, you need to be more distant (center of body to hand distance) to hit the ball if the arm is full stretched. so, the greater the lenght of the arm, the bigger the distance, the more footwork to be done to achieve it. second, the shorter you are, the easier for you to acheive needed footwork because of less inertion. third, with shorter arms you need more stretched arm to acheive same power of shot, because speed of shot is proportional to radius of streched arm (providing rotation speed is equal), so there is need for speed. when you account all three, it is logical that for shorter guy chinese type stroke is more convenient, while for taller guy euro stroke would be better solution
 
because of their typical height there is no issue for far east asians, they are using best technique...for them. but other nations actually have the issue, depending on personal height. the shorter (younger) players maybe should be training chinese style stroke
 
feel free to comment on this


Edited by friendship - 10/07/2010 at 7:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 7:12am
Originally posted by nicefrog nicefrog wrote:

It's just that most Chinese players hit a full loop hit with a straight arm and follow throw to their opposite shoulder with an elliptical return, most European players hit with a bent elbow and finish in front of their face and return back down the same path. I think one or the other is a natural evolution depending on which type of rubber you grew up with, it seems if you have swapped from one rubber to the other at some point you will have a mixture style like I ended up with
 yes I do believe that is a real accurate answer, I played with Chinese rubbers about 10 yrs ago for about 3 seasons, and during that period my stroke really did alter (Became more 'closed' with a longer arm) I only stopped because at that time there was huge problems with quality control with Chinese rubbers, but when I started playing with softer less tacky Jap/Euro I really struggled at first on my f/hand from being too closed/ball in the net.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by friendship friendship wrote:

that sounds very true. when I was thinking about two different loop strokes, it crossed my mind that it is both easier and more convenient to use chinese type stroke to a shorter guy. first, you need to be more distant (center of body to hand distance) to hit the ball if the arm is full stretched. so, the greater the lenght of the arm, the bigger the distance, the more footwork to be done to achieve it. second, the shorter you are, the easier for you to acheive needed footwork because of less inertion. third, with shorter arms you need more stretched arm to acheive same power of shot, because speed of shot is proportional to radius of streched arm (providing rotation speed is equal), so there is need for speed. when you account all three, it is logical that for shorter guy chinese type stroke is more convenient, while for taller guy euro stroke would be better solution
 
because of their typical height there is no issue for far east asians, they are using best technique...for them. but other nations actually have the issue, depending on personal height. the shorter (younger) players maybe should be training chinese style stroke
 
feel free to comment on this

This makes quite a bit of sense.  I always have to bend so low in order to hit a proper stroke.  Once my legs give out on me, my game completely falls apart.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by friendship friendship wrote:

[QUOTE=Imzadim]
that sounds very true. when I was thinking about two different loop strokes, it crossed my mind that it is both easier and more convenient to use chinese type stroke to a shorter guy. first, you need to be more distant (center of body to hand distance) to hit the ball if the arm is full stretched. so, the greater the lenght of the arm, the bigger the distance, the more footwork to be done to achieve it. second, the shorter you are, the easier for you to acheive needed footwork because of less inertion. third, with shorter arms you need more stretched arm to acheive same power of shot, because speed of shot is proportional to radius of streched arm (providing rotation speed is equal), so there is need for speed. when you account all three, it is logical that for shorter guy chinese type stroke is more convenient, while for taller guy euro stroke would be better solution
 
because of their typical height there is no issue for far east asians, they are using best technique...for them. but other nations actually have the issue, depending on personal height. the shorter (younger) players maybe should be training chinese style stroke
 
feel free to comment on this


It makes some sense but then again there is Wang Liqin, a very tall guy. I think it may have more to do with equipment that you learn with than body type.  If that's true, than it might take some time and patience to change a stroke even with a change of equipment, if you can do it at all.  In fact, even if the Chinese stroke is in some way "better" than a Euro stroke, it still may not be something that everyone should necessarily try to emulate, not if you have been playing a different way forever.  Maybe with kids it is different. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

It makes some sense but then again there is Wang Liqin, a very tall guy. I think it may have more to do with equipment that you learn with than body type.  If that's true, than it might take some time and patience to change a stroke even with a change of equipment, if you can do it at all.  In fact, even if the Chinese stroke is in some way "better" than a Euro stroke, it still may not be something that everyone should necessarily try to emulate, not if you have been playing a different way forever.  Maybe with kids it is different. 
 
it can be both true (equipment dependent and heigth dependent). but then, china-style rubbers could be used with some young kids when learning TT. europe could experiment with both schools in parallel, taking one training direction for future player from the youngest age. what to lose?


Edited by friendship - 10/07/2010 at 4:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

This makes quite a bit of sense.  I always have to bend so low in order to hit a proper stroke.  Once my legs give out on me, my game completely falls apart.
 
standard TT table height is best suited for women and people of lower height. position with bent knees is unnatural, requires much strength and fitness, and even when tall guy holds it, it is just enough but not the best position which would require even more bent knees. player tall like samsonov is never in best position, such player is just accomodated to playing in position which is not optimal for game, but is best he can acheive. although span of arms is some kind of compensation, it must be admitted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 8:34pm
That is what always amazed me about WLQ.  Tall but is so strong and fit he can stay low all the time.

I think there might be a lot of advantage for a new generation of European kids to train with Chinese-style rubbers (even if they are made by, say, Tibhar) just to see what happens.  Probably won't happen though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 8:49pm

Oh the rubbish, it really dispares me. WLQ was obviously cast aside at the age of 14 because of what? he was too tall? Ok that is not true, he made the top because he was tall?, or too short? I think he made the top in China coz of something else, how about dedication??????



Edited by APW46 - 10/07/2010 at 8:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 10:36pm
Despair?  Why?  Let's recap the thread.  Somebody made the comment that a straight armed 'Chinese' loop may suit shorter people which I don't think is the explanation.  So I commented that WLQ who is 6'2" hits it that way.  It seemed like a good counterexample and implies that a Chinese stroke isn't a matter of your size.  As you noted yourself, very tacky, hard, heavy rubbers are likely to affect the way one hits the ball and maybe that is the explanation for the stroke.  Or maybe not, it could also be (what I think is the real explantion) -- that this particular generation of Chinese players hits the ball the way they do because they were taught to hit it that way by  innovative coaches who were paid to do nothing but think about stuff like that and experiment with players.  I also noted that WLQ is one of the fittest players around which I think is pretty obvious.  One assumes that comes from dedication.  So why despair and where is the rubbish?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 12:28am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

That is what always amazed me about WLQ.  Tall but is so strong and fit he can stay low all the time.

I think there might be a lot of advantage for a new generation of European kids to train with Chinese-style rubbers (even if they are made by, say, Tibhar) just to see what happens.  Probably won't happen though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 4:59am
Originally posted by friendship friendship wrote:

Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

This makes quite a bit of sense.  I always have to bend so low in order to hit a proper stroke.  Once my legs give out on me, my game completely falls apart.
 
standard TT table height is best suited for women and people of lower height. position with bent knees is unnatural, requires much strength and fitness, and even when tall guy holds it, it is just enough but not the best position which would require even more bent knees. player tall like samsonov is never in best position, such player is just accomodated to playing in position which is not optimal for game, but is best he can acheive. although span of arms is some kind of compensation, it must be admitted
 That is where the dispare is Baal, although maybe that is too strong a word, I was actually agreeing with youTongue 

Edited by APW46 - 10/08/2010 at 5:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 7:20am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Despair?  Why?  Let's recap the thread.  Somebody made the comment that a straight armed 'Chinese' loop may suit shorter people which I don't think is the explanation.


but it isn't explained why tacky rubbers are better for stretched arm swing and euro rubber better for more closed elbow position. is it the matter of speed in regard to inferior speed of commercially sold chinese rubbers (with which the chinese players are taughtto play in younger age)?

I gave 3 arguments, and I was expecting them to be commented. it was opinion but what about validity of each of those 3 arguments? isn't it true that short people have power disadvantage, which would be problem in top TT if not compensated with technique? isn't it true that stretched arm when looping does exactly that...compensate the power of strike?

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

So I commented that WLQ who is 6'2" hits it that way.  It seemed like a good counterexample and implies that a Chinese stroke isn't a matter of your size.


proves nothing, because noone can say if WLQ would be even better player than he is (was) if he was taught euro technique, and WLQ is certainly exception among chinese regarding his, for his nation, unusual size. and chinese would certainly not adopt special technique approach for exceptions in height like WLQ

let's not forget also that chinese TT success is natural when you take into account number of TT players in china. in fact, given these numbers, and given the fact that they can organize training by dedicating players which emulate style of play of leading europe players, for to train against them, any other situation would be considered a failure

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 7:23am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

That is where the dispare is Baal, although maybe that is too strong a word, I was actually agreeing with youTongue 


what is not true in what I said?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 9:06am
I must remember how to spell dispair....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 9:22am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I must remember how to spell dispair....

You mean despair...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 9:33am
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I must remember how to spell dispair....

You mean despair...
 HAAALOL dis pair,  dat pair, who caresLOL

Edited by APW46 - 10/08/2010 at 9:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 9:34am
Originally posted by friendship friendship wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

That is where the dispare is Baal, although maybe that is too strong a word, I was actually agreeing with youTongue 


what is not true in what I said?
 I did not say that any of your post is not true, I just don't agree with it.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 11:52am
I have an observation on a few European players I saw at the club (mainly Players from Soviet, Poland, and French, so it may not be correct to say European as a whole).  Anyway, I notice that they play much more balance between FH and BH than players from other countries (mainly VN, China, and Korea).  Sure their FH swing is shorter and much more compact, but their BH is so deadly, and beautiful.  I want to stress that my observation is based on a very small number of players, so it may not be true, or mean anything.  I just wonder if any body has the same observation, and also if it's necessary to have a compact FH in order to play a more balance FH\BH game?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 11:58am
Soviet?  Twenty years has passed pretty quickly, but still.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Soviet?  Twenty years has passed pretty quickly, but still.....

Hi Hi... These are old timer we are talking about here, beside I can not tell them apart from the old Soviet Union Smile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

I have an observation on a few European players I saw at the club (mainly Players from Soviet, Poland, and French, so it may not be correct to say European as a whole).  Anyway, I notice that they play much more balance between FH and BH than players from other countries (mainly VN, China, and Korea).  Sure their FH swing is shorter and much more compact, but their BH is so deadly, and beautiful.  I want to stress that my observation is based on a very small number of players, so it may not be true, or mean anything.  I just wonder if any body has the same observation, and also if it's necessary to have a compact FH in order to play a more balance FH\BH game?


In spite of my snarky comment about your use of the word Soviet, I have the same impression.  It may be that the compact forehands and bigger backhands all come from the same idea, which is to stay in balance and not move more than is necessary. My initial thought is that this may be why guys like Waldner, Persson, Saive and Korbel have had long careers, and guys like Ryu do not.  On the other hand, Chinese players with huge forehands who retire relatively young can still play, it's just that there are so many good players coming behind them, whereas who in Belgium is going to replace Saive?  Anyway, in my travels to Germany and Sweden I have noticed that even amateur players have really nice and smooth backhands, especially from off the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

[QUOTE=Baal]
Hi Hi... These are old timer we are talking about here, beside I can not tell them apart from the old Soviet Union Smile.


Actually, in ~48 hr if all goes to plan I will be playing table tennis in a place once part of the old Soviet Union (not Russia and now part of NATO).  It is possible because of this forum.  I will post about the experience. There is nothing I love more than playing table tennis in exotic locales and meeting new people doing it.

But as for Russia, I can't tell the difference either except that the people in control now wear Italian suits.  (Even there I once found a great club with friendly people that I still occasionally keep in contact with and really nice backhands). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 6:09pm
I'm not sure about the straight arm loop fits for the shorter guys.  Remember that the straight arm loop was invented by the Hungarian and those guys are tall.  And I don't know if just because the Chinese now has the "Chinese" loops that they are the best in the World.  I think they can have the "European" loops and still dominate table tennis at this moment.  I also don't think that because of the rubbers that make them doing the straight arm loop to get the benefit out of it (Those Hungarian guys, I believe they played with Butterfly rubbers).  I believe that with hard sponge or soft sponge or tacky or grippy rubbers, if someone know how to utilize them then it doesn't matter if they loop straight arm or compact.

But I agree that table tennis is more suitable for Asian or better yet, for someone who has Ectomorphic body type.

FireHorse


Edited by FireHorse - 10/08/2010 at 6:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2010 at 4:11am
Originally posted by FireHorse FireHorse wrote:

I'm not sure about the straight arm loop fits for the shorter guys.  Remember that the straight arm loop was invented by the Hungarian and those guys are tall.  And I don't know if just because the Chinese now has the "Chinese" loops that they are the best in the World.  I think they can have the "European" loops and still dominate table tennis at this moment.  I also don't think that because of the rubbers that make them doing the straight arm loop to get the benefit out of it (Those Hungarian guys, I believe they played with Butterfly rubbers).  I believe that with hard sponge or soft sponge or tacky or grippy rubbers, if someone know how to utilize them then it doesn't matter if they loop straight arm or compact.

But I agree that table tennis is more suitable for Asian or better yet, for someone who has Ectomorphic body type.

FireHorse
 IMO, that is as near perfect answer as is possible.
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