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Upgrade from Mark V |
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dewang.lakhani@
Member Joined: 11/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Posted: 10/21/2010 at 3:05pm |
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Hi Friends,
Last year I had, asked questions on this forum and was satisfied by the replies and bought the below setup :- Blade :- Yasaka Extra ForeHand :- Yasaka Mark V BackHand :- Yasaka Mark V I also bought a Newgy robot. My game is improved as I am able to play shots with Mark V which I was not able to play with my previous rubber. I am having difficulty in one shot, i.e. Lifting the ball to Loop or returning an underspin. I am not too technical in choosing rubber , but I need a better rubber which will help me in looping and lifting shots with nice trajectory . I know Tenergy 05 might help as it has lot of spin and nice throw. But it is quiet expensive. I have convinced my wife so I can spend some money as my birthday gift(hence Tenergy is under budget) , but I don't want to pay against the odds just because i can afford it. Please help. I think I will keep my existing Blade (Yasaka Gatien Extra ). I need thr ubber to have good spin too, I just saw the ratings on megaspin and think DHs Neo hurricane 3 might be nice, I also read about Tenergy substitue as:- 1) Vega pro 2) Stiga Calibra LT sound 3) Red Diamond 4) Acuda S1 5) Hexer Thanks Regards, Dev ------- Blade :- Yasaka Extra ForeHand :- Yasaka Mark V BackHand :- Yasaka Mark V |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Switching to T05 from Mark V will not help. So the key is estimating the speed of the spin. I usually look at the chopper's swing and know I must move my paddle at least that fast or my tangential paddle speed will not be fast enough and the ball will push off downwards. You can see I have both mark V and T05 and I practice against a Newgy 2050 too. The Newgy can shoot some brutal back spins at higher speeds. The problem is getting started because the back spins are so great you will screwup almost 100% unless you open up the paddle a lot and hardly anything will work. This is what I did. SLOW DOWN THE NEWGY and make it easy to get started!!! Slow it down to a speed of about 9 or 10 and angle the head up so it has some back spin but not a lot. If you still have problems then slow the Newgy down some more and angle the head up even more to compensate. Once you slow the Newgy down to where you get the hang of matching the back spin then you can start speeding up the Newgy and lowering the head angle. When you can return Newgy back spin balls that go as fast as possible but still land on the table then then you will have little problems with most choppers. Edit 0.02 is the radius of the ball
Edited by pnachtwey - 10/21/2010 at 4:17pm |
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Hookshot
Gold Member Joined: 07/24/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Save your money. The rubber is not the problem. Listen to Pnachtwey.
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dzhu14
Beginner Joined: 10/01/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 59 |
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pnachtwey are you an engineer? and is your conclusion that - Mark V is fine for looping?
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debraj
Premier Member Joined: 06/04/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3369 |
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i have a guy in our club who had been playing mark v since beginning of time.
he recently geared up to change and had been trying different rubbers for an upgrade. as per him... hi doesn't need same rubber as mark v .... then he would rather use mark v only. tenergy 05 didn't work out for him... as he was not having a short game as good as mark v and also suffering in hits. he tried hexer+, tenergy fx, vega europe, red diamond, but finally ordered palio blitz which he feels plays the same type of game with more speed and spin...."slightly harder sponge but nothing that I can't adjust to" i wanted him to try my acuda... but he already ordered.... i think may be acuda would have been too synthetic for him... and he may be right with blitz which has a mixed synthetic and natural rubber topsheet like mark v. for people who may not know.... yasaka was the first company which blended synthetic rubber with natural latex to create the mark v topsheet giving balance speed and spin. later many companies followed....but this was the major element in success of mark v in that era.
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debraj
Premier Member Joined: 06/04/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3369 |
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dewang... if you are from india, then do remember you can't get probably any of these rubbers at the price of mark v in india ($17 a sheet).... except red diamond.
however you can just put 3 layers of kerosene on the mark v sponge and one layer on the topsheet... and the rubber will rock for at least 2 weeks. (assuming you are not playing 3 star tournaments :) ... and voc is not much of a problem )
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Yes, I am an engineer. Can't you tell from my posts? My posts tend to be more geeky.
Yes, Mark V is fine for looping. Mark V is probably better than fine but not great. A great looping rubber will have a higher spin/'speed' ratio than Mark V.
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strongpong
Super Member Joined: 06/30/2009 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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I would recommend Roundell. Similar sponge hardness and throw angle. Slightly faster with a more dynamic top sheet for easier spin generation.
A very underrated rubber IMO.
Stay away from the Tenergy, Hexer, etc if looking for a smooth transition. These high performance new gen rubbers are too different from mark V.
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dewang.lakhani@
Member Joined: 11/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thank you everyone for the fast response. I am in usa.
I was playing at my newly joined club. One of the good player at my club was using a DHS hurricane 3 old one. I tried his racket and the sponge felt a lot softer, All 100% of my shots landed on the table, also generating a lot of spin.
I am a new bee in terms of the rubbers and blade. But for some reason my Mark V 2.0mm feels a lot hard. My short game near to the table has really improved using Mark V but any kind of top spin return is very difficult to handle for me.
I am a 1900 - 2000 rated player. Please suggest.
Thanks
Dev
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zheyi
Silver Member Joined: 06/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 940 |
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Did you tried tuning your mark v? You can try but a tuned piece will be very different from original, before you switch to new gen rubber. How about just change your forhand to h3?
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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If sponge is hard then maybe your Mark V is way too old??? Does happen, it turns to anti if you haven't changed it in years... But I'd like to ask something else.... If I start sounding a little too aggressive forgive me, not my intention. I am wondering how you would become a 1900-2000 player without an ability to loop an underspin ball. In addition, the question regarding your rubber is silly for a player with such a high rating. Not everyone's styles are obviously the same, but I am wondering what is your style and what is the #1 shot that wins the points for you... Honestly, I learned to loop underspin on the forehand when I was 1200, which propelled me to 1600 over the next couple months simply on attack of the underspin. That was done with Mark V Special Edition Blade and Mark V GPS ( slower than mark V and softer sponge ). So Mark V is perfectly fine to loop any!!! underspin. As a matter of fact all inverted rubber can be used against underspin, the stroke obviously varies. If you want to learn to loop underspin, use your robot. I use a friend's Newgy 2050. Set it for position 6 - middle of the table. Reverse the head with the spin wheel to underspin, set the height of the head to 7. Then set the speed to 9. Now practice a nice, strong backspin ball. Over... and over... and over. That's what i do. Guess what? any rubber and blade works. My friend is an EJ fan always wants me to show him if his new "toy" loops lol. Always does.... |
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nicefrog
Platinum Member Joined: 06/12/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2398 |
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Mark V is a looping rubber, that's what it's been since the dawn of time, it's a old fashioned one but that's still what it is.
Looping underspin is the easiest of all loops, the only key to it is to swing fast enough to overcome the backspin that's on the ball and you don't even need to really swing that fast to make it work. 2/3rd of full speed should be plenty for a competent looper against any possible real life backspin (note that robots can probably make much more spin than humans can but you don't play competitions against robots)
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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You guys are making this an equipment issue. Dewang has the Newgy and the Mark V. If he does what I suggest he will learn how to lift chops.
"I am a 1900 - 2000 rated player. Please suggest." I don't see how you can get to this level without knowing how to lift chops. "any kind of top spin return is very difficult to handle for me" I play at much lower level and but I can make spinny opening loops and will try to spin the ball off your paddle once I see you don't close your paddle. I don't know how you would get by someone like me and I am not that good. I can lift chops and trade topspin drives or loops with my Mark V. My Mark V max is very good at blocking, counter driving or looping. Blocking is much easier with Mark V than T05. Mark V should be able to do what you need it to do in this regard. The Newgy will shoot balls with plenty of topspin. Set the speed to 20, angle the Newgy's head down to about 7, set the position to 16 and just return the Newgy's topspins. I like to do this while at the table then I move back a step at a time. I do the same with BH. I set the Newgy's angles to 5 and 20 and return balls at the table and then slowly step back until I am about 2.5 meters back. Just getting the ball back is not good enough. You must get the ball back low with speed and spin. Think of hate and malice. Believe me, your problem is not an equipment problem. If you have problems with incoming topspin with Mark V it will only be worse with T05. With T05 you must estimate the incoming spin even more accurately because T05 will magnify any errors. Other rubbers will be somewhere in between Mark V and T05 but they will still respond poorly to poor technique. I don't understand. You have the Newgy and the Mark V. You should be able to try different things until you find what works. The key is slow down the Newgy until you get the feel for what ever your are trying to learn and then make the Newgy more difficult. If you can't make Mark V work handling heavy backspin chops or topspin loops then don't even consider T05.
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Hookshot
Gold Member Joined: 07/24/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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I wanted to ask the same things but probably would not have worded it as tactifully as you. I can not picture any 2000 level player that has big trouble with topspin or chop.
Looking for better rubber, (TO5) is the wrong way to go. If you have trouble with incomming topspin, spinnier rubber will just make things worse. Same with chop.
Use that robot! There is the answer. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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This is a problem that needs to be fixed by improving your technique. One trick to looping heavy underpin is to open your racket angle a little bit and then use a normal stroke (this is what Eric Owens used to teach). Alternatively you can lift it with great effort, using more lift motion the more underspin there is, succeeding by brute force, but that is not how most good players do it (although I know a couple of exceptions). Or you can spend a lot of money on a high throw rubber like T05 and now you owe special favors to your wife. That is never good, even if it is your birthday, and it will especially suck if it turns out you don't like it. So before you do that, try to figure it out without an equipment change. Incidentally, there is a 2480 player in our club who represented the US at the last worlds who plays with good old fashioned Mark V, and has since he was on the Indian Junior National Team many years ago. I have played him many times and trust me, he can loop the crap out of underspin. Many is the "safe" and very heavy push I have played to him where I end up going to pick up the ball since has ripped it by me.
If you are having trouble with this shot with Mark V, having Tenergy won't help. You will still have trouble, only the rest of your game may be a bit more out of control, and bear in mind this rubber is quite a bit heavier. Later, when you are hitting this shot well, Tenergy may give you a bit more penetration. But it's not going to help you learn the shot. |
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vic#74
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2010 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 442 |
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From my experience chinese stuff or soft rubbers excel in lifting hard underspin for intermediate players. I couldn't beat one hardchopper at our club for monthes - tried roxon 450, g3 fx, glued Bryce, even T05 (the moment when chopper is returning your hard earned loop to you with all that accumulated triple (his - yours - his )spin is very very scary). And once I switched a paddle and played with my Solcion on FH - and here we are - first win :) Soft loops on the table but lack of power. Then I moved on chinese stuff - Globe 999 Nat, DHS H3 Neo, BW II tuned, LKT RD. And now the w/l ratio is standing somewhere - 65/35 on my side. So my advice - take RD from your list - and do practice, that rubber will do the job. And when you'll develop your skill to the extent when you'll be able count tangular speed, adjust bat angle, move in right position - then switch to the donic coppa speed, T64 or smth like that - and k*ll'em all ! :)
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Pioneer
Silver Member Joined: 06/03/2010 Location: Egypt Status: Offline Points: 866 |
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What about Mark V GPS ?
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riker71
Gold Member Joined: 10/24/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1024 |
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Agree with the technical advice already given. Rubber wont make much difference unless the technique is correct.
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Stratus Powerwood
FH T05 BH T25 |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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You guys are still thinking about the tools instead of the technique. The physics don't change. The topspin issue is answered by learning how to close the paddle. This goes for any paddle. Returning the back spin chops is solved by matching the tangential speed of the ball with the paddle. This too is rubber independent.
Dewang has the tools. He must use them.
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peter79
Premier Member Joined: 07/05/2006 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3393 |
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My first rubber is Mark V Ad not Mark V. After playing for 6 years, finally I tried Mark V Max on FH and Mark V HPS 2.0 on BH.
I can serve very spiny serve with Mark V, that's amazed me. It's almost the same with H3. If you want to find a faster rubber of Mark V then Mark V HPS could be an alternative. It smells like chinese rubber because of the natural rubber on the top sheet. The sponge is more livelier, bouncy and has a nice speed glue sound. If you don't tune/speed glue your Mark V but want to have a faster rubber feels like Mark V, then HPS is the one you should try. |
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vic#74
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2010 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 442 |
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pnachtwey and the others talking about technique are absolutely right. But to note: I insist that there are rubber making loop over underspin a lot EASIER than the others. For example, I'm confidently making loops against underspin with RD and still could do only 1 of 5 with rubbers like roxon and nianmor and never 2 in row with them.
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debraj
Premier Member Joined: 06/04/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3369 |
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+1
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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If you can't loop 8 or 9 out of 10 of your 3rd balls or underspin balls, then all you need to be using are beginners equipment in the first place.
All the glue effect rubbers and next gen rubbers are for people who ALREADY HAVE ALL THIS DOWN WITHOUT THINKING.
Those are the specific stats i was given by a very high level player from India named Rakesh.
He said for me, at my level, I should be making 8 out of 10 of my 3rd balls, and at least 5 of 10 of my 5th balls. Also opening on undersping should be 8 or 9 out of 10. I am only a medium level player. Without practice or regular effort, he maintained a 2300 level. It made me wonder what kind of expectations he demanded of himself lol.
But if you cant reach this consistency or close to with the most basic of equiptment, then you need to work on some technical things big time before moving onto new better equipment, especially something like tenergy or nianmor or acuda or hexer or something.
That is, if your goal is to improve.
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garwor
Silver Member Joined: 06/02/2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 730 |
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Dewang, did you maybe used new white ugly glue to attach mark V to blade? It can kill any old rubber. Once I bought new sheet of Sriver L (before this I used sriver fx for years), and unfortunately seller told me I can use new btty stupid glue. Result is that I needed almost max body swing to return any ball on the other side of table ( I had off- blade), couldnt even think of looping chop, rubber was 30% slower than sriver fx, and hard like a stone. Neither 4 layers of old glue every day after this helped, rubber was fully dead. It was because of new glue. Many people have same expirience. Rubbers like sriver and mark V should be attached with old glue. Not to boost them, but to not kill them.
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friendship
Super Member Joined: 09/03/2010 Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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I don't really know how water glue can destroy rubber. sponge should reject water. but applying glue to blade can be problem. wood soaks water and this moisture in wood changes characteristic of blade. I use dandoy water glue which has specific recommendation not to apply the glue on the blade, but only on the sponge. too much water in the blade will make it play dead until it dries up, which takes week or more
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dewang.lakhani@
Member Joined: 11/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thanks you guys for your advice and I APOLOGIZE for some mis-understanding on my part. I played with a player who was 1500-1550 rated. I lost to him in a really close matches , I mean 11-9, 9-11,11-8,11-8 . "So I thought lesser the number better the player" , that's why I assumed myself to be 1900-2000 as I was playing close to 1500 rated player. But not as good so I rated myself at 1900-2000 But now reading your post I understand the "Greater the number of rating better the player". So sorry for the confusion.
I can very well do a top-spin to an underspin, and hit some nice shots too. My problem is I cannot do it consistently. So I thought may be by changing my equipment would help me improve. I play a lot on my robot with similar settings and get around 80% accuracy on looping an underspin chops. But still my observation is, my Mark V is little hard , it's definitely not dead, as it's preety new and I take good care of it. I just need a softer alternative with little more help towards looping and spin. Thanks. Dev |
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Baal
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No, you probably just need more time with the Mark V and the right technique will eventually come to you. Some disciplined practice with some better players might help you if you can find someone willing to help you. |
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garwor
Silver Member Joined: 06/02/2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 730 |
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Baal, I see you like mark V. I have one, and it's good around 10 days after gluing(old glue), but then become slower. I really don't like these changes on my rubbers, and I'd like to not glue at all. Do you think that after first 8-9 gluings (once in 10 days), rubber will become better (slightly softer and bouncier) than new and I could use it then without gluing at all?
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dewang.lakhani@
Member Joined: 11/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thanks Baal for the prompt reply.
Baal as well as garwor, I have never glued my racket, it came pre-assembled from "megaspin". Can you guys please tell me which glue I should purchase as I am confused what is old and new glue. If anyone has a video of removing the rubber and re-gluing it , it would be very helpful for me. Today is my first league tournament at my club and hopefully I will be rated today. I am gonna stick with my Mark V and try to improve my technique using Newgy and also try to re-glue my sheets. Thanks guys for all the help Dev |
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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+1. Completely agree. You need someone to show you the proper technique in looping underspin. You can do both with hard and soft sponges. I used to play with softer sponges than now, so here is how I would characterize them when looping against underspin: Softer Sponges require the underspin loop to be more impactful to the ball - this is due to the bounce of the soft sponges - which generally bounce more with some kind of a rebound effect. I consider Mark V to be in this list of softer sponges ( even though its medium in hardness, ). If you try to brush up on the ball without forward force, the sponge gives in and the ball will not travel high enough. So more impact will be needed. Once you start getting the ball over the net, you'll probably going to loop past the table. This is a good sign. I'd rather miss going long all the time instead of going short. If going long, you'll have to learn to cover the ball at contact so that more topspin is produced and the ball will hit the table. Looping with softer sponges can be done without wrist use because the sponge will "catapult" the ball on its own. Hard Sponges are not bouncy, so they have more dwell time. This is where use of wrist and proper angle is important. Its especially important on slow loops. The topsheets of hard sponged rubbers are usually grippy or tacky for that purpose - to be able to brush up on a ball at slower pace. For power loops - hard sponges tend to do a better job - they allow you to simply hit through the spin without trying to work against it. Problem is that still need some kind of wrist in order to cover the ball and not launch it too long. If you understand the mechanics - work on your robot and try to reduce your swing as much as possible. So that you have a good ball contact and timing worked out. Then increase the backspin. If you want us to help, you can videotape yourself and post it up for analysis. We'll take a look and provide feedback. When taping - tape from the side view and from the diagonal view from the front. Make sure to capture full body position/rotation so that all elements of technique can be visible. |
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