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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Yeah, I could see that this tournament is too recent to be rated and that you probably played at least a couple 1900-2000+ players if not more and their ball quality enabled me to see what you were missing. But still, I think you undersell yourself and that if made a few adjustments, your game could go up easily.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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Not around here. This is why I underestimate ratings when people say guess the ratings.
It is more than that. There are very few stupid shot where people hit the ball fast and low where it flies off the end of the table or into the net. like I see in this video. The guy in blue makes a lot of stupid shots. Now do a comparison. Be honest. |
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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I think there's a difference between stupid shots and poor execution. I only watched the 1st game and it wasn't as though he was taking crazy shots that he had no chance of landing. He just couldn't execute and I think that's a big difference. I think in general the guy in blue isn't as good as the guy in the video we were discussing. It was more than just inconsistency though, a lot of it comes down to placement. At the end of the day though you can never tell. 1 was a highlight video and the other was a match. You also don't know if one guy is just having a bad day. That's why it's always hard to tell on video. If I took video of myself a couple of weeks ago I'd be ashamed to post it. Something was seriously wrong with my game that just needed a slight adjustment but it took a while to figure out what it was (it happens when you only play once a week). If you would compare me today vs 2 weeks ago, the difference would be at least 300 points because something I was doing impacted every aspect of my game.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Tt4me, I wonder if at times you give enough credit to the fact that there are levels of players and levels of shots. Sure, I can play table tennis in a way that I barely miss, but the problem is that my quality of ball is too easy for the opponent to return (this is the usual quality of the shots in Eric's video. There are lower, higher risk shots that may be harder to execute against certain kinds of balls, but those shots, when made are harder to return. Some players have been trained that when their shots do not go in, do not stop taking them, just keep adjusting until they start going on. Others will switch to lower risk shots. But if your opponent is easily dealing with your lower risk shots, you are under pressure and unless you like losing, you gotta do something. As my coach says, missing is part of the game - you have to learn from it. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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What I see in the first game is him adjusting to his opponents shots. He definitely was trying to adjust to the 4th and 5th ball. He is not closing the paddle enough because he is underestimating the spin coming back from the block after he loops the underspin ball, hence the ball going long. Then he gets too passive which allows the other player to go on offense and he losses the first game. Blue comes out for the next game with some good adjustments, lets the ball drop more on his opening loop which improves the quality has 7-0 run. He never quit gets the 4th and 5th ball dialed in but is getting slightly higher percentage in towards the end of the match. I think he played pretty well and had some good adaptations. He did not break mentally from loss of the first game. |
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aroonkl
Silver Member Joined: 07/08/2011 Status: Offline Points: 748 |
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@NextLevel. Very well put as usual. +1. Quality of the shots matter. Sometimes we have to trade consistency to make our shots harder to return. @Eric. I feel the same with NextLevel. You played good and tried very hard to get the balls back to your opponents. But there are things you should fix and climb to 1800-1900 quickly. Lot of your shots: Land mid table, medium high, no spin, no speed, no purposeful direction = No meaning, just Floating. Easy for your ops to return or pick their choices how to damage you. Learn to Add spin when you chop or loop. Place the balls deeper and lower. Always look where is your opponent. Do not try to give them easy balls. They are your friends but not your friends. @tt4me. I don't see the guy in blue made lot of stupid shots. He was a pretty ok player, 2200-2300. He made some mistakes and awkward shots due to the PH long pip player. If he played normal player, he should have a nice solid form.
Edited by aroonkl - 06/10/2014 at 2:31am |
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collins.latag
Super Member Joined: 05/10/2012 Location: CA US Status: Offline Points: 407 |
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<span style="line-height: 1.4;">It is more than that. There are very few stupid shot where people hit the ball fast and low where it flies off the end of the table or into the net. like I see in this video.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">The guy in blue makes a lot of stupid shots.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">Now do a comparison. Be honest.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span> I don't know... those shots were not unforced errors... looks like his opponent has pips on his backhand and was mixing up all his returns thus making it harder for the guy in blue to get a rhythm going. Further more, his opponent is a penholder and would do RPB chops if there is ever a term.:P |
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PPisLife
Blade:TBS Rubber: Donic |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Eric, I don't understand why this video references 1700, and it surely confuses viewers who don't know the players in the video. And how many matches or games did you win with these opponents? For everyone else: at least two of the players are 2100+. Quick hint: if you see someone look like they're just fooling around, they really are. Eric: You do look good. So how come you don't come down for one of our Stellan camps? I could see you crossing 1800 with his guidance. |
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Eric Fountain
Super Member Joined: 12/07/2013 Location: Portland, OR Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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Because to me USATT 1700 implies me as a player (when combined with it being a highlight video from one guy), as opposed to something like U1700 or Under 1700 which would imply an event. I removed that from the title since it seems to be confusing. 0-3 against black/yellow shirt (~2300) 0-3 and 1-3 against forum member with glasses (~1950) 1-3 black shirt with top red stripe (~2100) 1-3 black shirt with yellow/orange mismatch shoelaces (~2075), something like 10-12 or 11-13 4th game 1-3 teal shirt woman (~1650 but possible adjustment based on other wins, I'd guess 1725+) 1-3 against green shirt chopper (~1785) - failed opportunity here bigtime 1-3 white shirt headband (~1900) - ditto, winnable 3-1 against red shirt chopper (~1875) a few other wins against some lower people
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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I don't usually wade into this sort of thing, but ... It really seemed like your shot selection was overly cautious. I think you'd see improvement right away by simply taking more chances and being more aggressive in general. Yes, a couple of those guys appeared to be messing with you and standing back to play ball retriever, but you made it easy for them to do that because you didn't attack with force! Go after those weaker, high returns and smash the heck out of them! Yes, you'll miss some, but no guts no glory. So "teal shirt woman" was close to your level, but you lost. You seem to have basic stroke mechanics down ok, but you let her take the initiative to be aggressive and attack. If you simply played more aggressively and prevented her from having opportunities to attack, then you may very well have won that match. Hope this helps!
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1020 |
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eric would be one of my favorite players to be on the table with; long...long rallies...YUM!!!
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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Nice highlight video, Eric, love the audio. You have an entertaining style. If I were done for the day at a tournament and you were playing, I'd stay and watch the match.
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Those are decent results against strong competition. I agree with the person that said you could have been more aggressive -- at least the strong players wouldn't have been able to fool around so much. At the same time, I also recognize that this is your style of play.
The match I would have liked you to win was against the woman (I forget her name). What do you think happened there? And it seems that you do well against choppers. I'm thinking that's because they aren't used to be aggressive against you. And I was serious about why don't you come down for the next Stellan camp in August? |
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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Full 5-set match video from 6-21-14, with down time edited out. I'm in the dark blue shirt. Due to incompetent cameraman (me), it's hard to see me except when I am on near side 2nd, 4th, and end of 5th sets. Also the ball is hard to see against the walls and bad lighting. It was hard for us to see it playing too, so you are getting the authentic experience.
Any suggestions/comments are welcome. The nearest coaches are almost 250 miles roundtrip from me, so I watch these match videos frame-by-frame to see what I did most awful and try to work on that. I'm sad about this one because I have been practicing getting off the table and in good ready position after my serve, figuring that was least reactive moment and should be easiest to change. But here I leave my right foot planted until my opponent has hit his receive! I'm just not translating many hours of practice effort into muscle memory even on this seemingly simplest thing. It's pretty discouraging, and that's not even considering the absolute lack of improvement in my serve (in tournament matches, in practice matches it is a bit better, whoop-de-doo).
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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A few notes: Serve shorter. The end of the match he was anticipating the long serve serve and stepping around for the attack. I didn't see a single flip from either of you guys. When you do your FH serve, you are staying in the extreme corner. That opens you up to a wide push forcing you to make a weaker attack that can then be blocked to your backhand. After you serve, get in a better position. Against this opponent, you could have exploited his BH. I don't think I saw a single BH attack and his pushes were consistently long. That leaves you 2 options - force an easy opening, or push him towards his BH side and either do a fast push or hit to his wide FH. If he manages to get there, it opens him up for a block to his BH. Seems like you had a lot of trouble with his serves. Easier said than done, but watch how he contacts the ball to determine the spin on the ball. Your opponent cho-ing when you botched your serve near the end is very uncool. He also was needs to learn to move his arm after his serve.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Good to finally see you play, BRS. Your approach to the game is different from mine so I am trying to figure out how best to tell you that you are working way too hard...
While you were likely constrained by the venue, try to put the camera at the right aide of the table when there are right handed players playing as they mostly serve and loop from the left corner. I don't have time to be too detailed but two quick recs: stop pushing serves, especially sidespin serves, and get a better backhand. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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All great advice, thank you. I get too hyped to serve short in matches. I can do it in practice. Just need to calm down.
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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Thanks for watching and replying. You are so right about not pushing sidespin serves. I know it, but after a couple misses, or just when I am feeling unconfident or not paying full attention (a problem in itself), I will try a stupid receive to just get the ball on the table. Needless to say I eat most of those. BH would be fourth on my list if I could choose to improve skills in order. Serve, receive, sidestep footwork, then BH, is the order I would pick. Do you think BH should be higher? People can play fairly well with no BH to speak of, my opponent in the vid is a fine example. But not so much with lousy serve and receive like me.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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If you want to improve your game quickly, the easiest way is to get a good backhand. Players up to 2200 neglect their backhand. I once played a 2200 player who got annihilated by my backhand and then proceeded to annihilate my forehand.
The problem is finding a really good backhand coach but it pays quick results. You annihilate the penholders at your level (no backhand), you annihilate serves (most players serve to the backhand expecting an attackable return but the backhand is actually the easiest stroke to attack serves with, showing how underpracticed it is), you develop a good block (players loop to the backhand and you block back to wherever they are not for an easy winner) and you reduce the pressure you place on your footwork. So yes, you really should raise the priority level you have given the backhand given your age unless you plan to continue to chase balls all over. The backhand also shows you how important the wrist and elbow can be and you see that for the return you get, your forehand is way too large. Edited by NextLevel - 06/23/2014 at 5:35pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Serve is the only thing I might place higher. Footwork is more because you have no backhand. Receive is easier with the backhand as an option.
For serve, you have the advantage of a table to practice with. Your disadvantage is how to improve it by yourself without the right feedback. It's fairly disappointing that even the best serve tutorial videos don't tell you in good enough detail how to grade your serves. Then the other problem you may face is that without a returner, you don't fully see the effect of your serves. That said, I have been working on my serves recently and I plan to write a bit about it. I haven't made a quantum jump but I managed to within basic levels figure out how to get an easier return to attack. From a relatively mediocre server for my level (myself), I will say based on what I have plagiarized what works and what has not for me. You know how to serve long to the backhand but you don't serve short to the forehand - those two serves go together , each making the other far more effective. If you do nothing else, work on that. I feel that you could also have gotten free points in your match if you served to the long forehand after serving to the long backhand all the time. BTW, your forehand is not as big as I thought it was on my phone - still could be more powerful but a good stroke. Your backhand hit shows potential - just build out a full backhand. It's also easier to serve to the short forehand with your backhand... just saying... Edited by NextLevel - 06/23/2014 at 6:48pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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glanden.zheng
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 520 |
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I finally get to see you play, peter79! You seem to have good touch; relies more on consistency than power. What were you using in this video?
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Butterfly Viscaria FL
FH: Hurricane 3 Prov BH: Tenergy 05 |
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glanden.zheng
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 520 |
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NextLevel, do you have a video of you playing somewhere? A quick scan of the thread didn't see you, but I really need to work on my backhand so interested in how you use yours
Edited by glanden.zheng - 06/24/2014 at 6:49am |
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Butterfly Viscaria FL
FH: Hurricane 3 Prov BH: Tenergy 05 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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I have a few videos HERE - they are videos that range quite a bit in my playing strength (1400-1900). The two best players I played against on that thread (Shay2Be and Leshxa) also share my coach so you don't quite see the backhand matchup as clearly as you would against the forehand dominant juniors.
This is probably the closest video to how I play now, even though it is outdated (worse serves and strokes) and not vs. a looper: |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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BRS, here's one main reason, IMO, that it looks like you're "working way too hard." When you complete a stroke or even a serve, you tend to keep your feet stuck in the finishing position. When you react to your opponent's return, you have to take an extra step to get out of your current position so it looks like you're scrambling to get to the ball. Take a small step or two towards a neutral position immediately after executing a stroke.
Edited by heavyspin - 06/24/2014 at 8:25am |
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GMan4911
Silver Member Joined: 08/31/2012 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 830 |
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BRS, it looks to me like the majority of the time, you stand with your weight on your heels which makes your ability to move side to side a little awkward. As a result, you tend to hop to the ball instead of shuffling your feet. Stand more with your weight on the toes/balls of your feet and practice shuffling.
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OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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Great advice Heavyspin and Gman, thank you both. I have been working on keeping my feet active for about two months, but it obviously hasn't translated into muscle memory when it counts. This week I started using shadow practice in addition to regular drills. I'm hoping not having a ball to watch will do more to drill in the footwork. I don't know what is a reasonable amount of hours of work to expect to create new muscle memory and have it stick, might start a thread about that. |
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glanden.zheng
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 520 |
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You played quite a few good backhands there; your follow through reminds me of Ovtcharov's backhand slightly. Just the ending position Your opponent certainly has his own style of play too, he's only the second person i've seen using the "inverted forehand"
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Butterfly Viscaria FL
FH: Hurricane 3 Prov BH: Tenergy 05 |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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Here's video from the recent US Open of my match in men's singles against H. Oya. I sprinkled in a few comments.
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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Good match. Oya plays at much higher level anyway.
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skip3119
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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Heavyspin,
That looked almost as bad as me hitting with you at the 2010 US Open. It looked like you just kept underestimating the amount of topspin (just like I did with you). But it really does not look like he is doing anything excessive to get that topspin. Do you think it comes from a pro level use of wrist, just better timing to maximize racket speed at contact, or just overall better technique? Bye the way, you really should have "Choed" when he gave you the point at 10-0. Of course he would not have understood the joke so it is probably better that you did not. If you had it would have made a nice clip to pair with Bobrow's celebration dance. Mark
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