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    Posted: 05/28/2014 at 11:41am
Dear Friends,

My name is Yang, a full time coach from Austin Taxes.

I am currently doing a research about the technical difference between beginner players, and I need your help to finish my research.

The purpose of my study is to answer the following key question. What is the technical difference between beginners of different USATT rating. I personally think the definition of beginner rating would be between 1200 and 1600. The output of this study could not only guide players to improve their game but also provide coaches a direction of training.

According to my observation and experience, I have the hypothesis as following:
1200 vs 1600

USATT Rating around 1200
Serves

 1. Only have one or two serves 
2. Most serves are topspin or nospin, very few underspin
3. Most serve are long serves


Return 

1. Most returns are drive or push 
2. Most return is just for safely return, is conservitive.


USATT Rating around 1600

Serve:

1. Have two or more serves

2.Most serves are side topspin, and few side underspin

3. Most serve are long serves

Return

1. Most returns are drive, push and few loop

 2.Returns are more aggressive and look for chance to end the point


I am going to prove my assumption by watching 100 players video with ratings between 1200 and 1600.

However, I had searched the videos on Youtube many times. The videos of players whose rating are between 1200-1400 are really limited. I think the reason is people are not care about these low level players.

I am asking you a favor. If your rating is between 1200 - 1400 and  you do not mind to send me your match video, that will be great help for my research. I also could give you some feedback about your game.


Thank you in advance !!!

Regards,
Yang

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liulin04 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 11:56am
then what would you call those players who only have a few hundred points in their USATT rating?  1200-1600 is not a beginning level, they are intermediate if not slightly advanced.  I have a friend who's only 1300, yet he plays at a 1800 level, he just doesn't do well in tournaments.  But all of the technicalities are on par with that of advanced players. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:

then what would you call those players who only have a few hundred points in their USATT rating?  1200-1600 is not a beginning level, they are intermediate if not slightly advanced.  I have a friend who's only 1300, yet he plays at a 1800 level, he just doesn't do well in tournaments.  But all of the technicalities are on par with that of advanced players. 

either your friend does not practice against other styles or he has a 1800 FH and a 1000 BH and can't finish the point.  that does NOT make him an 1800 level player.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 12:23pm
he does have a 1800 FH and about 1400 BH.  But his shot selections are too predictable.  Always FH cross court, never down the line.  He has no problem beating other 1800 or 1900 players at my club, but just doesn't do well in tournaments. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by jt99sf jt99sf wrote:

Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:

then what would you call those players who only have a few hundred points in their USATT rating?  1200-1600 is not a beginning level, they are intermediate if not slightly advanced.  I have a friend who's only 1300, yet he plays at a 1800 level, he just doesn't do well in tournaments.  But all of the technicalities are on par with that of advanced players. 


either your friend does not practice against other styles or he has a 1800 FH and a 1000 BH and can't finish the point.  that does NOT make him an 1800 level player.



Exactly. You can't claim a tournament rating without getting it in a tournament. It's totally fine if someone is not interested in playing tournaments, and a rating is just a number that's not nearly as important as the fun of the game, but once you are in that camp you can't say you play at 18XX level any more as you don't have anything to back it up!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:

then what would you call those players who only have a few hundred points in their USATT rating?  1200-1600 is not a beginning level, they are intermediate if not slightly advanced.  I have a friend who's only 1300, yet he plays at a 1800 level, he just doesn't do well in tournaments.  But all of the technicalities are on par with that of advanced players. 

If your friend doesn't do well in tournaments, then he's not an 1800 level player because the rating is based on how well you perform in a tournament not on technique. Your friend just needs to play more tournaments to get over the pressures associated with playing in tournaments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 12:38pm
yeah, hopefully he will play in more tournaments....

Anyhow, back to the original topic of this thread.  I don't think a beginner can be seen as someone who's between 12-1600.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 1:04pm
The current average rating of the 8205 (its sad that we have so little active members) players with a curent usatt membership is 1433 according to TTSpin. So obviously a 1200-1600 can not be considered a beginner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 2:16pm
Finally a forum topic I am really expert on - how mediocre players like me play mediocre TT.

I am 1550, up from 1288 at my first rating 15 months ago, have played in around 15 tournaments, and I feel more like a beginner now than I did at 1288.  Obviously I'm not a beginner if you put me in with basement players, but by how far I have to go to be able to play as I'd like to play, I certainly am only beginning.   Anyway the definition of beginner is irrelevant to the OP, because he gave specific ratings and asked for characteristics of players at those levels. 

I don't think serve and receive alone really identify the levels, although aggressive receives is a mark of a higher-rated player just off the confidence.  IMO spin in rally shots is more telling.  This is how I would define each 100 point increment for double-inverted players who aren't heavily coached juniors.

1200 - We don't really play with anything a more advanced player would call spin.  All serves are basically no-spin or some side, and shots are basically drives or really soft pushes.  

1300 - We may have learned to serve underspin and to push with some spin. You see a lot of push wars at tournaments at this level, both from nerves and because nobody can loop against underspin.  I got my initial 1288 rating by just pushing all the time, it was really boring.

1400 - Now we can loop!  But not very consistently.  And God help us if one comes back, because we have long swings and awful body position, so we can't loop again.  But that's okay because we can't block loops  close to the table -- too spinny, it goes off.  So matches come down to who chooses to attack first and how often they hit it - usually the first successful loop wins.  And there is still a lot of drive hitting, because once the ball goes fast there's no slowing it down.

1500 - Now we can block!  But still not very well.  Our blocks have a tendency to just pop back onto the table high, no placement, and we still often retreat way back to block.  But fortunately our opponents still miss a lot when trying to loop two or three times in a row, so it's all about trying to set up our third ball attacks with our favorite serve, and then getting one more ball on the table than the other guy.  On the good side, our opening loops are a lot better, and we aren't so scared to try them.

1600 - Now I'm ahead of myself, but from what I've seen 1600 players tend to have one strength that you would do well to avoid.  They can also attack from the BH side some, and tend to hit the right shot more often than not.  At lower levels we often hit the wrong shot against the wrong spin at the wrong moment.  1600s do that less, but make up for it by being more angry with themselves when they do screw up.  But 1600s usually still have a big weakness somewhere, if you can just spot the hole in their game, and then hit it.  They can hide it pretty well, but the weakness is there.  Lower level players are all weakness, all over the table, just hit it anywhere.

1700 - I wish.

I have watched a lot of video of bad players badly playing tournament matches, usually including me, and I think you can get within 50 points +/- by looking for these characteristics.  Again, only for double inverted.  Pips look different. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zettalith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 4:18pm
1200 - 1600 may not but be true beginner in USATT, but evaluating players any lower than this might be somewhat pointless. I think this will be a good study if Yang get's enough videos to watch. I am interested in seeing the results.

I think at this level, alot depends on your experience playing againts different styles. A 1200 may look like a 1600 in practice or matches againts inverted players in their club, but when they go to a tournament and face all kinds of styles and rubbers, they may end up playing much more conservatively. If this is the case, it may be a while before they reach 1600 unless the get significant experience vs. different styles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by Yang Yang wrote:


I am going to prove my assumption by watching 100 players video with ratings between 1200 and 1600.




Think carefully about what you just wrote.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pondus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 4:38pm
I would imagine it would be difficult to pinpoint these various traits for various rating levels. Perhaps if you're exclusively looking at young coached players going through a "traditional upbringing" in table tennis. But, if you look at the landscape of players here in the US, especially in the more adult age groups... holy sh*t... you have some with low ratings that actually look to have decent concepts of technique and such, and then you have people with relatively high ratings that are as unorthodox in their playing style as can be. I mean, there are 1800 players that couldn't loop the ball if their lives depended on it. You got people gripping their racket like it's a shovel or something... but they are crafty.

Anyway, good luck with it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zettalith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

holy sh*t... you have some with low ratings that actually look to have decent concepts of technique and such, and then you have people with relatively high ratings that are as unorthodox in their playing style as can be. I mean, there are 1800 players that couldn't loop the ball if their lives depended on it. You got people gripping their racket like it's a shovel or something... but they are crafty


Funniest and most true thing i've heard in a while. "like it's a shovel or somethings"...hahahaha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 5:26pm
tt is the great equalizer

for every young stud who has the latest coaching, equipment, rubber, shoes, clothes etc.

there is the wily old veteran who can barely move, who has 'incorrect' strokes and 'inferior equipment' but knows how to kill the young stud's game

(well, not EVERY.....)

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 6:17pm
The thing is how should we express levels
 Is someone who has played for 20 years and at a level at 1389 are thet a  beginner?

 also dropping your rating feilds down would be more appropiate I would think, maybe to 800-1250 rating for beginners / or  lower level players

Try and go to a tournament or 2 and watch some games
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 7:53pm
Jeez, can yall get over the word beginner?  Pretend the OP just said players between 1200 - 1600, never used the word beginner, it doesn't change his question at all.  

Note to the OP, buy a copy of lexsha's book Breaking 2000 

and you will find on pages 10 - 40 his experiences playing tournaments between the high 1200s and 1600 ratings, and the skills he needed to reach each level.  His descriptions of tournament play at low ratings should translate quite well to video analysis because they are mainly about tactics and skills which will be easily visible, compared to service spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Yang Yang wrote:


I am going to prove my assumption by watching 100 players video with ratings between 1200 and 1600.



Think carefully about what you just wrote.

The statement takes credibility away from the experiment of watching the 100 players. If one starts an experiment with the idea that you are trying to prove an assumption (really a hypothesis), then the experimenter is already biased and the experiment fatally flawed. (Especially in this case, where the observing will necessitate subjective judgments.) The goal of an experiment is to verify or disprove the hypothesis, not to prove a pre-existing bias. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Yang Yang wrote:


I am going to prove my assumption by watching 100 players video with ratings between 1200 and 1600.



Think carefully about what you just wrote.

The statement takes credibility away from the experiment of watching the 100 players. If one starts an experiment with the idea that you are trying to prove an assumption (really a hypothesis), then the experimenter is already biased and the experiment fatally flawed. (Especially in this case, where the observing will necessitate subjective judgments.) The goal of an experiment is to verify or disprove the hypothesis, not to prove a pre-existing bias. 
-Larry Hodges

It might be an ESL thing - he might intend to say that he would test his assumption.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2014 at 11:48pm
Yes Larry, that was my point.  I don't think it was an ESL thing so much as a mindset.  That kind of thing is a pet peeve of mine.  Also, some key experimental groups are missing.  For example, what if higher level players showed the same patterns?  How would that affect the conclusions?  How many players would it take to be certain or to exclude that your initial expectations reflect some reality?

Also, wouldn't you think that some of these patterns depend on the level of the opponent?

Anyway, probably this coach has not had to deal with so many players at this level in the past, and is trying to get an idea of what things on average he needs to look at to get his students to improve.  The best way to get the data is to chart matches at tournaments because that is where people are playing for "real" and also you know then what the ratings actually are.  It will take some time, won't be able to do it all at once.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2014 at 12:25am
You are right. I should call them intermediate level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bobloiy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2014 at 11:53am
I know this isn't my thread or topic.. But I want to ask a question here, does the value of USATT ratings differ depending on what kind of people that are at the club? Here in New Jersey, I have played my first tournament (under 500 Rating, but I did this to see what kind of opponents I would find + it was my first tourney. I found out that this was the "beginner" level, unlike other areas where it is around 700~1200) and found out that around 1600~1800 was the "average" club player. I was surprised that the highest level player was only around 2100, and from the videos that I see on Youtube, he could have been around 2200~2400. He was in the finals against two previous korean national team players and won two games (out of three, ended up losing) against them, which would make me assume that he is higher than the "2100" range. So, my conclusion is that the range of "beginner" to "master" is different in different areas?


Edited by bobloiy - 05/29/2014 at 11:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2014 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by bobloiy bobloiy wrote:

I know this isn't my thread or topic.. But I want to ask a question here, does the value of USATT ratings differ depending on what kind of people that are at the club? Here in New Jersey, I have played my first tournament (under 500 Rating, but I did this to see what kind of opponents I would find + it was my first tourney. I found out that this was the "beginner" level, unlike other areas where it is around 700~1200) and found out that around 1600~1800 was the "average" club player. I was surprised that the highest level player was only around 2100, and from the videos that I see on Youtube, he could have been around 2200~2400. He was in the finals against two previous korean national team players and won two games (out of three, ended up losing) against them, which would make me assume that he is higher than the "2100" range. So, my conclusion is that the range of "beginner" to "master" is different in different areas?



People usually look a lot better in person than in videos.
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