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Backhand Drive

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mickd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06/17/2016 at 12:57pm
I've been working on my basic backhand form recently, and well it's pretty bad. I feel like my form is completely wrong, but I'm having trouble fixing it.

Any advice to help me get it looking right would be very much appreciated!



One thing I'm trying is having my elbow more forward than my hand when starting the swing. I think this helps.

Another thing I'm struggling with is switching to forehand when doing backhand drills and the ball suddenly goes towards my forehand. Any tips to help with this?

Thanks,
Mick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2016 at 1:09pm
I'd say keep your paddle a little more closed, facing the table.  And curl the paddle more towards you with your wrist.  Keep the stroke relaxed and use a snap of the wrist towards the end.  You can follow through further as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2016 at 1:14pm
Relax your wrist. Elbow up a bit more and be sure to hit towards the ball, you are pretty much blocking here.

It's possible your partner was giving you balls that were a little too hard to work on form.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2016 at 1:52pm
Jim Clegg, a coach from England, has a very good series of videos on how to hit a Bh drive.





I would suggest setting up your video camera at the same angle as Jim uses in his video so you can have an exact comparison of what you do versus what he does.

To me you are kind of doing what he does in stage one.  However, your stroke is much longer and you straighten your arm out.  You are also using wrist (which he does not use in stage 1) to rotate the racket tip from a "sideways  to the right" position to an "up and to left position".  He does not do that until stage 3.  

Note in stage 2 how he does straighten out his arm.   The elbow stays almost fixed and the hand travels in a curve (forward at first and then finishes moving almost straight right).  The racket tip starts pointing left (right for you) and finishes pointing forward (not up).  His hand finishes well out to the right (left for you) of his body.   You tend to move your hand more in a straight line and your elbow moves forward and somewhat inward toward your body.  Your racket tip never points forward and your racket face ends up pointing mostly forward instead of having the racket face end up pointing more to the side as in Jim's video.

Good luck

Mark

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nasche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2016 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

I'd say keep your paddle a little more closed, facing the table.  And curl the paddle more towards you with your wrist.  Keep the stroke relaxed and use a snap of the wrist towards the end.  You can follow through further as well.

Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

Relax your wrist. Elbow up a bit more and be sure to hit towards the ball, you are pretty much blocking here.

It's possible your partner was giving you balls that were a little too hard to work on form.

I agree with pretty much everything the guys above told you. You are just blocking most balls, follow through further and relax would help you. Sometimes I get myself doing this, fortunately now and then I have a good training partner that keeps telling me to make sure my bat is hitting the ball, not the ball hitting my bat.

You may ask your training partner to slow down a bit if you don't feel like there is enough time to hit it with your stroke, or you can back down a half step from the table.


Edited by Nasche - 06/17/2016 at 3:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2016 at 7:02pm
When learning a new stroke or fixing an old one, try to use multiball.   There are too many things going on at once in the brain to fix a stroke during an exercise like this unless you are very experienced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2016 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

When learning a new stroke or fixing an old one, try to use multiball.   There are too many things going on at once in the brain to fix a stroke during an exercise like this unless you are very experienced.

I think it's the first time I've ever agreed with NextLevel LOL  but yes, multi ball works wonders when you're trying to develop a new stroke. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2016 at 3:11pm
I think people have different ways of doing backhand drive. Some people keep their elbow high and fixed and only move their forearm back and forward, some people keep their elbow lower and move their whole arm back and forward (very short motion). I think they can be equally effective, as least below pro level.

But basically a drive should have back/forward motion and through the ball contact. Your motion is more like upward. Just try one of the two ways above and see which works (which feels natural) for you. And concentrate on the rhythm, timing and solid (through the ball) contact, this is very important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2016 at 12:21pm
Thanks for all the replies, everyone. A lot of very helpful advice.

I wish I was able to do multiball, but unfortunately, I don't think it'll happen. Do you think a robot would help for this?

I actually tried quite hard in that video to finish the stroke forward instead of up, but as you can see in the video, I failed pretty bad :( I tried it again the other day, but I wasn't able to get any videos, so I don't know how it went.

I'll post another video later this week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2016 at 2:43pm
Yes, a robot would be great for you to develop the stroke.
Looking at your current stroke, I suggest you keep your elbow high and fixed (as much as you can, both position and angle), relax your wrist a little, only move your forearm back and forward, keep the motion short and make solid contact.
It should look like the CNT's backhand drive in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_STzI-r5Sw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 11:07am
Yeah, the backhand drive they do in that video looks so nice, haha. Would love to one day look like that when I'm doing backhand drive rallies.

I've really wanted to buy a Amicus Pro for over a year now, but they aren't sold in Japan... I could use a forwarding service, but the ones I looked at awhile back were too expensive. The ones I'm looking at now though, aren't too bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 2:36pm
Lol I dream of doing that too. I just wanted to show you that all of them are using the same technique for BH drive and it's pretty close to your current stroke. You just need some adjustments.

That robot is really expensive... I wish I have a robot, too, and a table so that I could practice Kenta's reverse chop block and Ma Long's chop block :D I love those shots but it's so hard to practice them without a robot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. A lot of very helpful advice.

I wish I was able to do multiball, but unfortunately, I don't think it'll happen. Do you think a robot would help for this?

I actually tried quite hard in that video to finish the stroke forward instead of up, but as you can see in the video, I failed pretty bad :( I tried it again the other day, but I wasn't able to get any videos, so I don't know how it went.

I'll post another video later this week.

That's the problem with not practicing in a safe or multiball environment.  You need permission to miss so that you can understand how your stroke affects the ball quality.

While a robot has disadvantages, this is one of its strengths.  You can try things out and it doesn't care whether you miss or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

When learning a new stroke or fixing an old one, try to use multiball.   There are too many things going on at once in the brain to fix a stroke during an exercise like this unless you are very experienced.

I think it's the first time I've ever agreed with NextLevel LOL  but yes, multi ball works wonders when you're trying to develop a new stroke. 

Not a big deal - it's common to disagree with what one doesn't understand for whatever reason - it might not even be a meaningful disagreement - it's just that when one doesn't understand it, one thinks one disagrees with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor_the_cleaner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I've been working on my basic backhand form recently, and well it's pretty bad. I feel like my form is completely wrong, but I'm having trouble fixing it.

Any advice to help me get it looking right would be very much appreciated!

[
Thanks,
Mick
I watched the video and right away i got the impression that something was wrong with the stroke. 

And then it finally struck me: HE IS USING THE WRONG HAND!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 4:19pm
There is too much upper arm movement.  Start with your elbow pointing down and relatively flush to the upper body for backhand drive.  Only when looping or loop-driving does your elbow aim outward and in front leading the forearm.

For the second problem, just lean over to the forehand side to return with the backhand and keep the ball in play, at least for now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guillem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 4:42pm
Good tips overall.

And once you think you get it... Try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FaoV58RuzU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1XymoHVqcM

LOLLOLLOL

Just Kidding!!!

But I think it's a good video to watch although there is too much stuff going on in their technique to try to understand for the humble man (like myself).


Edited by guillem - 06/20/2016 at 4:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

There is too much upper arm movement.  Start with your elbow pointing down and relatively flush to the upper body for backhand drive.  Only when looping or loop-driving does your elbow aim outward and in front leading the forearm.

For the second problem, just lean over to the forehand side to return with the backhand and keep the ball in play, at least for now.

This means he will have multiple starting positions for different backhand strokes and that will hurt his overall backhand play as he gets better.  I believe his elbow positioning is currently fine as is.

On the upper arm motion, you are right because he is reaching for the ball rather than waiting for the ball to enter his power zone.  But that is what having the elbow out is supposed to allow him to do - wait for the ball.


Edited by NextLevel - 06/20/2016 at 5:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 7:04pm
Yes, that's how one transitions from a drive to a loop.

Drive(known as flick in Chinese)


In the video Guo categories the drive into two types - 推撥(literally push flick) and 橫撥(horizontal flick).  Beginners are supposed to start with the former so they get the rhythm down first.  The latter is an advanced form and serves as the basis of all forms of loop.  Both start with the elbow pointing down with the forearm in front.

Loop


Starting at 3:53, he goes over the stroke of backhand loop.  Note the elbow pointing outward leading the forearm.


Edited by zeio - 06/20/2016 at 7:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 2:43am
Thank you, everyone. Those videos are really helpful, too.

I ended up buying the Amicus Pro. It'll probably be awhile before it arrives in Japan because I had to get it through a forwarding company. It's a very costly investment, but hopefully I can get some good practice and workout in with it.

I've been quite depressed recently at the clubs I go to during practice because I could rarely get in any worthwhile practice. I cut the days I go back from like 6 days a week at my peak to like 3 days a week because of this. Hopefully this will help.

I feel like my understanding of the backhand is much better now, which is great because I have to teach about 10 middle school kids how to play the backhand stroke soon (for the last 2 months they've only been learning how to do the forehand counterhit). I'm the only experienced player there.


Edited by mickd - 06/22/2016 at 2:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote basichabibi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 5:30am
Color me impressed zeio! Coach Guo has the most straightforward explanations of TT technique I have seen from any coach. The man TT understands mechanics very very well.... I'm already watching the rest of the "shakehand grip coaching" playlist to reevaluate my fundamentals. 

Is there any other channels that you would recommend watching? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guillem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 9:04am
The amicus Pro robot will help you for sure.

I confirm this through my own experience since I recently bought it and it's worth every dollar/yen/euro, that much I can assure you.

Of course you need to have the technical concepts clear in your brain and, if so, you will be able to practise with a partner that doesn't get tired, it's always there ready for you, it doesn't blame you if you miss too much,... Of course not everything are pros... It has cons such as that you won't be able to hit the bar with it to have some beers.

Enjoy it!
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fantastic videos, zeio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roger Stillabower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 10:56am
Thanks for the videos zeio, very good instruction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 11:20pm
Thanks guillem. I'm actually really looking forward to it. Bought it from megaspin. Still waiting for it to be shipped.

And yeah, those videos zeio posted were really good. It also helps that I can understand basic Chinese. I'm watching the others in the series, too.


Edited by mickd - 06/22/2016 at 11:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2016 at 12:35am
Be sure to check out the a remake video on the backhand drive, with English sub.  In this video, he goes more in-depth on the roles of the elbow and arm, and the upper body during the stroke.

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