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STIGA VTT - Li Sun's Clinics |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Thanks, Andy. Waist rotation has been a problematic term for a long time, if folks will check out the table below. Cervical = Neck, Thoracic = Chest, Lumbar = Waist The lumbar spine has the least range of motion. Upper body rotation is largely completed by the thoracic spine and hips. That's why I've always used trunk/torso rotation instead when writing on forums and subbing videos, such as this one, even if they actually meant waist rotation. Still, trunk rotation is de-emphasized nowadays for reasons as you stated. Edited by zeio - 08/04/2018 at 8:14am |
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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Haha smackman...good one.
Speaking of waisting time, I am going to ask a couple of Chinese players rated over 2400 who speak the King's English, what they think that coach is saying. I agree with Tinykin's post... I'm just curious whether this coach is not communicating clearly or I'm a pedantic idiot.
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Tinykin
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Yes, as per PythonMonty, follow the coaches who say, "use your legs". i'e focus on powering from that push onto the leg, the rest will follow. Edited by Tinykin - 08/04/2018 at 1:55am |
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smackman
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maybe a waist of time
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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You can call me pedantic, but I'd call it oblique, at best, misleading at worst.
When I read,"The waist should stay put." or "The waist should remain still" without any qualification, I take it as he says it. "Staying put" means do not move at all! It does not mean follow. Or this, ""All you have to do is flex the hip with the body facing the ball." Sorry, I think that is very poor communication for a coach. Maybe his audience is advanced players and they get it. However, "the waist should stay put as it follows the hips" is confusing to me as well. The waist is moving so it cannot stay put... you can call me pedantic, but I think it's a confusing way to express it. As others have said, the waist follows the hip... power from the ground, up... and all o' that. It sounds like we will have to agree to disagree on this minor point. I do agree with what you are saying with respect to the intended technique.
Edited by Ieyasu - 08/03/2018 at 10:32pm |
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PythonMonty
Member Joined: 01/22/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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You don't. The point of the video is that your shoulders should stay in line with your hips; rotation and weight transfer should come from your legs moving your whole torso. There's often confusion when talking about this stuff between the body part that moves and the body part that causes the movement. So if your coach tells you to rotate your hips, he's telling you to use your legs. Legs move hips (and the rest of the torso) relative to the ground. Waist/core muscles move shoulders relative to the hips. So "no waist rotation" means keep your shoulders in line with your hips. For a right hander, right-sided hip and knee flexion/extension is the main engine of rotation and weight transfer for efficient forehand shot mechanics. Many players rely as much or more on core muscles turning shoulders relative to hips, but this is less efficient and requires twisting the lower back over and over again which the lower back does not appreciate. If for no other reason, follow the advice in this video to keep your lower back from getting aggravated and taking revenge on you.
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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the demo players didn't look like they were brought in for that purpose. I think they were taking the seminar. that might be why they couldn't do exactly what the coach wanted them to
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Tassie52
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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Tassie52, I get how the head can rotate separately from the body, and vice versa. Argothman's explanation is perfectly clear.
But again... look at the video... the demo player's waist is moving. How do you rotate the hips without the waist following? Show me a video, and I'll say thank you... Edited to add: Saying, "the waist should stay put," is different from saying the waist follows the hip.
Edited by Ieyasu - 08/03/2018 at 8:23pm |
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Tassie52
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Perhaps another analogy might be useful. If I want to look behind me, I can turn my head (head rotation). Or we can imagine I'm wearing a neck brace which keeps my head perfectly still and turn my body (body rotation). In the latter instance, you wouldn't say "you can't have body rotation without the head moving as well". Of course the head "moves" - that's the whole point - but it's the body which is causing the movement. Apply the same thinking to hips and waist. The hips turn but the waist "should stay put". Argothman's explanation is perfectly clear.
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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Argothman, thanks for taking the time to explain hip-flexion as you understand it. And... if I understood it, that still does not explain how one can have hip-flexion without the waist moving as well. Sure, I agree with what you wrote, "... let the legs and hip rotate your torso as one unit: that's hip flexion. "
Totally agree, but again that is not what the coach says in the video. He said, "the waist should stay put," and "the waist should remain still." And yet he calls for hip-flexion. The demo player contradicts what the coach was saying. Other posters have made correct observations, but none have reconciled this apparent contradiction. I'd hate to say it, but until I hear something to the contrary it sounds like this guy was talking out of his azz. (And yes, I realize he could beat me to a pulp, figuratively speaking, in a match.) And, I get it... apparently the Chinese are now learning to use less rotation... fine, but this verbal explanation does not make sense in English.
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hunkeelin
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moving waist for recovery is way faster than recover with your hand. What the dude's saying in the vid is just ways to speed up recovery. The amount of waist turning and wind-up depends on the time adjustment you got, if your opponent with speed then obviously you don't wind-up. That's the point of the video, not no waist rotation.
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APW46
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it is all because the plastic ball has speeded the game up, using the waste rotation for power makes the stroke more of a commitment and this loses a player time in the quick tempo of the game to recover for the next stroke, in effect, the extra waist rotation puts the player behind in tempo, because the extra power that it used to give is meaningless. it makes the mens game move closer the the women's game in tempo, and committing to a larger stroke to gain more power ( spin/pace) is now becoming counter productive.
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ZhouZhekai
Member Joined: 05/24/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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How does one use hip without slight waist moevent. Also who is Li Sung?
Edited by ZhouZhekai - 08/03/2018 at 3:58pm |
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APW46
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It is counter productive for many players to become obsessed with technique, i know it is a really good talking point to discuss what the very best at any given time a doing, but for most players, as long as technique is sound along with footwork, over emphasis on the fine tuning detracts from what can be achieved by focusing on other areas of the game. If you want to discuss how to get world class, have a look at a player such as Kreanga, and ask yourself how he did it with his own personal style. We are all different sizes, have different amounts of time to practice, different opportunities for practice, if you want to have the success that is realistic, allow your own style to develop, but use the wealth of information on forums such as this wisely.
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Argothman
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Sit in a chair and turn your torso 90 degrees to look off to the side while keeping your legs, feet, and butt stationary: that is waist rotation.
Stand up, and turn your torso while keeping your shoulders in line with your hip bones, turn by putting your non-dominant leg down and inward, and let the legs and hip rotate your torso as one unit: that's hip flexion. You're not using your waist to move, you're using your legs and hip. This is how I understand it!
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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BRS: Care to explain what hip flexion is? When I watch Liu Shiwen videos, I see exactly what tom has described. When she has time, the waist and hips are moving together and they are rotating.
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tom
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Maybe a good compromise is to use more waist when you are further away where you will need more power and have more time to return to neutral stance?
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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Yes! How come???
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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It is basically playing more the women's style, longer,faster rallies closer to the table. That puts more pressure on timing and less on technique. If you want to see hip flexion used in place of waist rotation take a look at LSW's forehand.
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yogi_bear
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I don't think the no waist concept is already a widely accepted idea in China. If it is then how come schools and clubs still use the waist and of course their super league and national teams
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Baal
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I think that philosophy predated plastic and came to dominate with 40 mm and maybe just before that (guys like KLH,, WLQ, Gatien, etc., even Waldner). About Wang Tao, he is another good example of a forehand that would work well today. The guy had waist and lower back muscles of steel! The general point about ideas changing is a good one though. I noticed that after looking at videos of Dragutin Surbek on the day I learned he had passed away. Really nobody would coach any of what he did these days (except for fighting hard to the end). But on the other hand, what Stellan Bengtsson did in that same era could still work now with some little modifications for new ball, especially the footwork stuff Andy mentioned. In every era there have been different effective ways to play. Players have different physical traits they have to deal with and in some cases compensate for.
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APW46
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Lots of hip replacements in 30 years time.
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henningf
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I’m struggeling to get exactly what he means, is it basicly(as a righthander): Don’t put your right foot too far back, and don’t swing too much? (Aka try to «push» more with the right foot?)
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Kolev
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I am a bit confused cause I don't exactly understand the meaning or the words "stamp" and "flexion" in this contest and generally most translations from chinese to english seem much too complicated or at least weird. Often seeing those in describing rubber properties on the back of a package
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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"After the stamp, squeeze the 2 fingers and brush like hell"!!! What fabulous advice!
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DonnOlsen
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[Wang tao would be amazing playing with his counter style.now coaches would be coaching younger kids to play this style since youngers player have a lighter body to accelerate]
A number of times in the last few decades of international traveling for table tennis I've had the great privilege of watching closed-door matches among the Chinese Men's National Team. I have many stories. In one session, I watched Wang Tao (the lefty, at-the-table, pips-out BH Wang Tao) play Liu Guoliang in Liu's international prime. Wang put on an amazing display, slapping away every one of Liu's top serves, completely controlling the table and the contest, in a very big mismatch. Such greatness!
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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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Thx Zeio for posting and translating the vids, as well as creating a separate thread.
However, the coach's words do not seem to match the actions of the demo player he is praising. Coach says... "All you have to do is flex the hip with the body facing the ball." "Waist rotation this substantial is a big no-no." [This instruction seems okay, since it implies small waist movement. However...] "The waist should stay put." "The waist should remain still." But, when I watch the demo player, his waist is clearly moving with his hips and his waist is definitely not facing the table. Sure it is less rotation than rotating at a 90 degree angle. As stated in the other thread, what is perhaps meant is less waist/hip rotation, which is fine, but the coach's explanation is completely misleading to me, at least in English. Maybe it's a translation/language issue. When I look-up hip flexion, I get this definition: "The word flexion actually means to decrease the angle between two bones at joint. " So what the heck is meant by hip-flexion in the first place, in a table tennis forehand swing context????
Edited by Ieyasu - 08/02/2018 at 8:12pm |
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mykonos96
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Wang tao would be amazing playing with his counter style.now coaches would be coaching younger kids to play this style since youngers player have a lighter body to accelerate |
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koshkin
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One trick I picked up from Stellan some years ago was to use a lot of waste rotation for the backswing when trying to loop half-long balls. It is definitely not the only way of doing it, but I found that it really helps me track the ball better when I do that.
ILya
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