|
|
Dangers of waist rotation |
Post Reply | Page <1 3456> |
Author | ||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Karakasevic here doing a FH loop
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
Sponsored Links | ||||
garwor
Silver Member Joined: 06/02/2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 730 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
youre right
|
||||
Equipment database
Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I'll be surprised if Kara doesn't have lower back problems with this kinda FH backswing, but maybe he doesn't do it often enough to cause problems unlike Waldner!
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I'm sure certain movements can worsen or hasten the lower back problems... but a lot of it seems to be genetic as well. I was watching some interviews and such a bit ago, where doctors were seeing 20 year old women with pretty badly injured lumbars -- and they had no exercise background or anything you'd suspect to be the obvious cause at such a young age. And then you have some lifters well into their old age still pumping iron, without any problems. Point being, much of the lumbar/back injuries were being blamed in large part on basic genetics. No reason to take your chances, though... work on the form/technique that gives you the least amount of pain/injury!!
|
||||
stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1022 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I wanted to say that with that 3-axis simplified model, I really feel like I learned something fundamental. Thanks a lot for that, it’s huge to me. WELL DONE BLAHNESS!!! PS: little correction from above, I should have written “The 2 lower ones ideally stay together on the same plane.” Edited by fatt - 04/16/2019 at 8:46pm |
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Thanks fatt for the compliments, it's probably one of my better contributions to the forum :)
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Checking in to say the thoracic rotation club is still working great for me as well! No back issues at all since taking up the new technique. None when chopping either. I think the backhand chop had been the real killer for me previously. Lunging sidestep with a complete lumbar twist... ow!
Still not perfectly fine tuned but much, much better than anything else
|
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Great to hear that! For me I feel that attackers moving to the deep FH to loop is also very similar to the backhand chop, turning the feet actually helps so much! I've been trying to ingrain this into my muscle memory...
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
No problems with waist rotation for me
|
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
You're welcome to use it till your lumbar gives out 20-30 yrs down the road or maybe if you're genetically lucky, never :) I have a 20's friend who came from Chinese TT sports school, he already has regular lumbar pain but also refuses to change his technique even after he agreed with me that waist rotation/bending is the key issue there!
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
serr
Super Member Joined: 09/10/2018 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
If I brace the core, does it mean I don't rotate my waist? I can't tell if I do the "no waist technique" properly
|
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
For me I use my belly button as a point of reference, if that moves relative to the hips then waist rotation is being used. Also the love handles should not be compressed or twisted in any way if you're not using your waist. Another way is tie your pants tight at the waist level, if you try to rotate the waist the pants will tell you that you're rotating from the waist lol... Generally if you're bracing your core well then you're can't be using waist rotation...
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Same thing I had. Guy complains about back pain every session, tried the thoracic technique for a few weeks of learning, was not able to learn it so reverted back to mr. Back pain! It took me about a week of heavy bracing and shadow practice to get it down to where I didn't use the lumbar. I may use it a few times here and there still, but nothing like the hundreds of times per day I was previously. Shit, even now if someone standing behind me calls for my attention, I just rotate with the thoracic lol... Another person who emphasizes the thoracic a lot is pro strongman Martins Licis. When watching his videos he always says do not bend from the lumbar, go from the thoracic.
|
||||
Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
The thoracic technique might be a nice add on, but the hips are more important. Using the hips makes it hard to mess up the technique and use the lumbar spine. Using the thoracic rotation is closer to the lumbar rotation and one might still use lumbar rotation on accident. Using the hips is the best thing to do. I'm saying this because I see a lot of posts about thoracic rotation on here, but not about the hip use.
|
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Would agree with you completely, a good hip rotation is the key, the thoracic rotation is a nice addon that can be used in bad positions and for some extra power....
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I'm in the process of eliminating waist rotation from my BH chiquita too...This will force me to use more arm there...see pics below for before and after transitions...
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
So instead of rotating and coiling the torso like ZJK which I believe is quite damaging to the lumbar, I'm switching to Harimoto's method where there is minimal lifting of the elbow and no torso rotation. I feel that the arm has to do more work in Harimoto's version, but throwing the arm forward like a punch also creates quite a lot of power.
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I've pretty much transitioned most of my technique to get rid of lumbar rotation, but tonight I still felt something weird in the lumbar area! After some examining, I discovered that my issue was that I can now do thoracic rotation without any bracing at all, so I got lazy and stopped bracing. But when I stopped bracing the core, lumbar rotation crept back in. Did some shadowing and confirmed that. Basically that means that bracing the core is pretty much a must for me to prevent lumbar rotation for the foreseeable future...
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
You're right that Harimoto-style thoracic rotation is safer than lumbar rotation. But high rep exaggerated twisting of the spine at any level is dangerous. And as you've noticed it's difficult to isolate rotational stress at one level by bracing the others. Harimoto should change his fh technique if he wants a long career. I expect he'll at least moderate it as his legs get stronger. Amateur players shouldn't copy his fh technique. We're asking for trouble if we do.
|
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Well if the choice is between thoracic rotation and lumbar rotation it's obvious that thoracic rotation is way safer (I would say majority of TT players are using lumbar rotation whether they realise it or not). I think basically what I learnt is that core bracing is essential to disabling lumbar rotation and you need to be disciplined about it. Harimoto seems to be bracing a lot given how straight his core is. I don't think he will have much lumbar or thoracic spine issues imo. With thoracic rotation, the joint between the thoracic spine and the ribs is what allows the rotation, and is the same mechanism that we use for breathing, so a few more reps wouldn't hurt all that much lol.... Also the extra whiplike power from combining the thoracic plus hip rotation is so addictive, it's like a drug
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
jonasnymose
Member Joined: 06/09/2013 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 37 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Yeah I just tried to do some ghost loops from forehand and backhand and doesn't seem natural to not move your legs while rotating.
|
||||
peterswenson
Beginner Joined: 12/22/2020 Location: Guilford CT Status: Offline Points: 1 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Suggestion from an amateur here: I've found that if I bend my left knee and then straighten up for the right hand forehand, my whole body rotates but my trunk does not rotate relative to the shoulders and hips. I think that might reduce the lower back strain. But of course it means more load on the knee. Your reaction?
|
||||
Peter Swenson
|
||||
obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Bending left knee, meaning your weight is on the left leg? If so, you wouldn't get any weight transfer since you're starting on the left leg and staying on the left leg?
|
||||
stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1022 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I keep thinking that the 2 feet jumping at the same time to rotate on a circle from (right handed player, clock system) 10-4 to 8-2 is the way to go to protect the lower back. The recovery might be the legs’ power for a bh loop If the block comes there.
|
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
@stilltt,
+1 Basically there needs to be weight transfer from right to left, and the feet and knees need to be free to allow the hip to rotate, which then transfers the rotational momentum to the upper body. I don't think the legs straightens that much (only by a bit for that upwards momentum against underspin but that's about it). I think there's also a lot to be talked about hip mobility. A lot of times with strength training we are way too quad dominant and neglect the glutes and the hip adductors. I've recently been trying to correct these imbalances as well with lunges, split squats, single leg reverse planks, resistance band side shuffles....I feel like my knees are a lot more stable since I've started training these neglected muscles. Now that I have a better understanding of the musculature, I'm finding that balance is so so important. Some injuries are caused by muscular imbalances, where you're too strong in one set of muscles and too weak in the opposing set of muscles. The muscles are attached to the joints so it makes sense that you preferably want the opposing muscles to be balanced so that the joints don't get pulled out of position by the stronger muscle.
|
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
For me the biggest change wasnt anything to do with the thoracic or lumbar area...it was the feet! As others have mentioned, your weight needs to leave the ground (not necessarily a big jump or anything) to allow the knees and body to turn without any antagonistic muscles holding you back. If you stay planted, often times your legs and hips are working against the lumbar. They want to stay grounded while your upper body wants to turn. Getting your feet off the ground, even if the toes are still touch a little, frees up the body to naturally turn without having any braking effect. At least that was my experience.
I'd done the thoracic only version for a number of months and while it worked well to start with... I developed a new set of pains! Watching liu song more, I adopted a nearly 100% hip rotation technique, trying not to twist at the lumbar at all and not really at the thoracic much either. The difference for me was the mini jump. Otherwise I risked knee torques, back strains and all that good stuff. The only downside now is the knees take more of a pounding than before, depending how high and often you jump.
|
||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
+1 on freeing the feet. The knees are a simple one direction joint which can't rotate without the help of the other ball/socket joints like the hips and the ankles. So if there's a problem it's often in the feet or the hips. However, I think it's not just about feet being not planted, it's a lot more complicated than that. You actually still need to plant your feet to obtain maximum reaction force from the ground. It's all about "unplanting" strategically. To rotate I simply lift the heels off the ground and rotate about the front of the foot. So for e.g. during FH backswing you have your left heel off the ground and right foot fully planted onto the ground with 90% of the bodyweight is on the right foot. Then as your rotate and transfer your weight to the left leg, the right heel leaves the ground which allows the right foot to rotate, while the left foot rotates back to facing the front and at the end your left heel should be planted on the ground with your right heel being off the ground, with 90% of the bodyweight on the left foot). This achieves the objective of complete weight transfer as well as rotating the hips safely, powerfully and freely. On thoracic rotation, I too started off with thoracic rotation, but nowadays I think the hip rotation is primary -> the thoracic rotation for me is like a secondary booster which comes in super handy when I need to do a deceptively powerful FH safely when out of position (say when I'm jammed bad in the elbow and didn't manage to get the feet out of the way) rather than resorting to twisting at the lumbar. And it definitely happens in matches because people will absolutely jam you hard at my level. A lot of people are quite surprised at how much power I can get in those cramped chicken wing positions lol. But there's a chicken and egg problem here too, if you're overly reliant on this thoracic mechanism then you will become so lazy on your feet that you stop trying to get out of the way when being jammed . I'm starting to have to consciously train to not rely on these crutches these days and always try to move my feet swiftly into position first before doing anything else. Off topic, but I feel like the crossover footwork is also a crutch as it allows you to loop very wide balls without your right foot being in position, best not to rely on it too much. |
||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
||||
obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Probably depends also on your past injuries and physical abilities/limitations on the technique you adapt.
I like to start mine, perhaps with an over exaggeration just to reduce strain on the spine, by having my right foot pointing to the right- like I'm going to take off running in that direction, foot parallel to the end of the table. Then I'll do the mini jump and bring my whole body rotating forward so the toes of the right foot are now pointing directly at the table, or close to it. Slower recovery time and not great for the bap de bap de bap play style, which is why I have to be more choosy when to use it. And more precise with the shot (avoid power zones etc), as it needs to be a winner or good enough to receive a weak return. When playing new people, it will some times be blocked back by players who use the weird, gimpy strokes such as playing backhand chicken wing on the forehand side. So those adjustments have to be made, but the general positions are the go to. I like the body shot best, and as a change up out to the corners. I either block or chop to setup the attack, being content to defend and save energy if they wish to attack me repeatedly. The pro women do a lot of movement even during the machine gun fire points, but I dont have the training or desire to take on that!
|
||||
aerial
Super Member Joined: 01/11/2015 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 499 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
for me, the most important thing is to engage the hips and not the waist.
there is no transfer of strength from the ground up without hips.
|
||||
stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1022 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I like to think about what to do now with the recovery from that secure and efficient fh. I hope people will promote what I think is the right way to teach the fh loop: jump from both feet and there is a road to success that is at least as good as any other school. The memory of Fan Yiyong training hard for the US Nationals inspired me to understand a safe and strong fh, and his bh was so devastating!
Edited by stiltt - 12/23/2020 at 12:29am |
||||
Post Reply | Page <1 3456> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |