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Tomahawk vs Sword serve |
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JohanFoludre
Beginner Joined: 09/24/2019 Location: Yakima,WA Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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Posted: 09/25/2019 at 1:25am |
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I know they both side-spin counter-clockwise (right handed server) looking from the top down at thw table.
1. But which one can be more spinny. 2. Which is more effective. I see Ding Ning doing the Tomahawk with some success but many Japanese seem to prefer the sword because it is easier to switch from sword to reverse sword at the last moment of contact . Lots of people use Tomahawk and does not seem very useful & it is hard to hide whether Tomahawk or reverse Tomahawk as well as sword & reverse sword |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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Never heard of this "sword" serve. Can you provide an example of it? Unless it is know by another name...
FdT
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JohanFoludre
Beginner Joined: 09/24/2019 Location: Yakima,WA Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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No it is known as sword serve. It is called as such because many Japanese do it like as in Samurai sword. I have seen Jun Mizutani do it and many Japanese girls. In fact there is a video in some US Open of a Japanese girl doing this in a very unusual fashion also with a high toss. In a Tomahawk serve , the racket moves left to right (parallel to the net) for a righty & of course right to left if it is a reverse tomahawk. The rackethead is above the wrist for the tomahawk serve which is equivalent in side-spin direction to a reverse pendulum serve where the rackethead is below the wrist and moves like a pendulum. The ball rotates counter-clockwise in a plane parallel to ground and table viewed from above looking down. Of course the pendulum serve is equivalent of reverse tomahawk. But in a sword serve (& reverse sword serve) , the racket head (though also above the wrist) is moving in a direction pointing straight at the receiver but only the racket edge and not the racket face is moving straight towards the opponent. It is like a Samurai warrior moving a sword , if you know what I mean ( ergo the name sword serve). But the big advantage of sword serve is that you can contact the ball with your forehand side (for sword serve) or backhand side (for reverse sword serve). So this doesn't give the opponent a lot of time to read the side spin direction. A (righty) sword server stand right in the middle of the table and serve a sword serve towards forehand corner of (righty) receiver (same side-spin direction as tomahawk serve or reverse pendulum serve) or for a reverse sword serve towards backhand corner of a righty receiver. (same side-spin direction as reverse tomahawk serve or pendulum serve)
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YoAss
Super Member Joined: 05/15/2017 Location: Tiel, NL Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Maybe there's a video of that sword serve somewhere? I get what you're saying, but it wouldn't hurt to see an actual execution.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Isn't that just a hook serve?
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DarkerMyLove
Super Member Joined: 08/23/2016 Location: taiwan Status: Offline Points: 167 |
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Is it possible you just answered you own question about which is more effective? (ie sword serve)
I have seen that sword serve with a few Japanese players but not too much. Either because it is not taught / not easy to master OR it is not super deceptive (yes it being fast movement has a certain deception). Or perhaps it is not easy to make 'variations' on the serves which would make it not so useful at higher levels or it is hard to keep the ball short. The fact that a youtube search on Sword serve table tennis garners no "tutorials" or videos says something I guess. To me the question about which is more 'spinny' is a question of one's own technique--> How well you are contacting the ball (brushing) and how fast can you more your arm (or wrist) would be the determination. |
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reflecx
Super Member Joined: 01/12/2011 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Are you referring to this serve as the "sword" serve? |
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WeebleWobble
Super Member Joined: 07/07/2012 Status: Offline Points: 490 |
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No, he's referring to the serve Miu Hirano mostly uses.
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hleett
Super Member Joined: 04/13/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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The harakiri serve? |
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vik2000
Super Member Joined: 06/29/2018 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 264 |
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This thread would've been a lot easier if OP simply provided a damn video showing what the hell a sword serve is.
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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Im thinking that it is the "Hook Serve", not , sword serve. Japan is not the world.
Here's a link of what I think OP is referring to. The guy on the video starts explaining the mechanics of it at around 10:00 so skip to that point.... FdT
Edited by Fulanodetal - 09/25/2019 at 1:18pm |
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Lightspin
Super Member Joined: 07/11/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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I am also somewhat mystified by the names but if I had to guess: The sword serve is a tomahawk serve where the racket edge is perpendicular to the end of the table. The racket also goes back to front along a line perpendicular to the end of the table straight towards the net. I am probably wrong though...
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Maybe Sword serve is a backhand serve like Dima?
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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Id say that the arm swing is like a tomahawk serve but the stance is more like a regular pendulum serve. Ive seen it being called "The Punch" serve as well. FdT
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Jackcerry
Super Member Joined: 07/06/2018 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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I think it’s just the hook serve like this one in the last video I made, it’s a great serve because you can put underspin, topspin or sidespin just contacting the ball with the rubber in different positions but with the same movement
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vik2000
Super Member Joined: 06/29/2018 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 264 |
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The hook serve can be deceptive once you mastered it but these receivers are just newbies. Even the server hasn't really mastered the serve. I could tell what spin he was doing most of the time and he just couldn't keep his serve low and short in many cases. You are better off learning from these guys in the video below. Unfortunately no translation for those who don't speak Japanese. |
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DonnOlsen
Gold Member Joined: 11/15/2008 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1751 |
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Hi,
Let's attempt a clarification. Tomahawk: All tomahawk service motions are forehand motions. A synonym for the tomahawk service motion is hook. Sword: All sword service motions are backhand motions. Most service motions do not have names. Two accepted names are pendulum and reverse pendulum. Those motions which do not have names are described via noting a phrase that summarizes the service shot type itself. To do so, usage is made of both the service motion attributes and the produced characteristics of the service. An example is: backhand, left-sidespin-topspin serve. Another example is: long, forehand nospin serve. Thanks,
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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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hleett
Super Member Joined: 04/13/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Tomahawk=戰斧式FH。Sword=拔劍式BH。
Edited by hleett - 09/27/2019 at 1:50pm |
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Skyline
Premier Member Joined: 07/01/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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DannyKahn
Beginner Joined: 09/28/2019 Location: Midland, Texas Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Maybe a misnomer because the twist serve in tennis (known as the American twist) only breaks from left to right of a righty sever (towards the left the receiver) and not the other way which is the slice serve. Also the sword serve (from a righty server) will break towards the right of the receiver (like a slice in tennis) but a reverse sword wlll go the opposite way (towards the left of the receiver like a twist aerve in tennis) .
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Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Can someone perhaps link a video of a sword serve? Apparently it's not a tomahawk serve. Is it another name for a hook/punch/jab serve? Don't think I've noticed a pro player using the backhand side of the blade to hit a reverse hook serve but I'm sure it's doable. Is that a sword serve? What the hell is a sword serve?
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liXiao
Premier Member Joined: 11/27/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6145 |
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OP is talking about the "Prince Serve" or 王子サーブ, famously used by Haruna Fukuoka. This was developed by Rokuro Sakuma at his academy. His students include Ai Fukuhara, Haruna Fukuoka, Keiko Okazaki, and Akiko Takeda. All of them sans Fukuhara were OX Long pips block and smash type players, and he is the one behind Nittaku's Goriki line of blades and rubbers.
Here is Okazaki against Tian Jing Zorner: and here is Sakuma explaining the serve in a training video he did with Fukuoka: Edited by liXiao - 09/29/2019 at 11:58am |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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Don't we know this as "The Reverse Tomahawk" serve? Isn't this Ding Nings signature serve? I remember seeing a young Kenta Matzudaira doing it many times as well
FdT
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I remember her! That is a really strange serve for sure. Doesn't seem real sword like.
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DonnOlsen
Gold Member Joined: 11/15/2008 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1751 |
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Hi,
With exceeding happiness it may now be confidently expressed that the table tennis world, in its ever-evolving nomenclature developmental process, has finalized the selection of the final term for this serve, namely "sword" or "harakiri" or "reverse tomahawk" or "punch" or "twist" or "American twist" or "Prince". It is in these moments of emerging, crystal clear clarity that boldly we go. Thanks,
Edited by DonnOlsen - 09/30/2019 at 8:16am |
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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1012 |
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In my imaginary vacation in Switzerland where I moved no less fictitious money between all those pretend accounts, I stopped by the local fanciful club where they call that serve the « knife ». |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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So its a Wind Shield Wiper serve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_DQiqF9vlo |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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Nope. The japanese girl in the video provided is making contact with the back of her hand, not the front. Similar motion though, I had the same reaction until I saw which side of the racket she was making contact with. IT is definitely a "Reverse Tomahawk". End of story. FdT
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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You can do windshield wiper serves with the reverse side. For tomahawk, the blade is more towards the table with a hook.
Edited by kenneyy88 - 09/30/2019 at 11:10pm |
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