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Dealing with muscular soreness |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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Posted: 12/27/2019 at 11:04pm |
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@pingpongaddy:
Relaxing while playing is not a bad suggestion, but it is easier said than done!!! You see, there are folks like me who picked up bad habits and it took a long time to undo the damage. You see I used to use my wrist too much. So in order to use my forearm rather than my wrist I do have to maintain my wrist more stiff by keeping some tension. It is very hard to relax and not revert to "wristy" shots. FdT
Edited by Fulanodetal - 12/27/2019 at 11:06pm |
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taczkid
Super Member Joined: 05/19/2016 Location: ILLINOIS Status: Offline Points: 487 |
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Many time muscle soreness comes from bad shoes! Make sure that the shoes you play with have proper support, etc for you size, and are designed for table tennis. This will definitely improve muscle soreness. Always make sure before you go all out at practice etc, to have a quick 5 min stretch/warm up session! Drink plenty of water!
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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hi makalele unfortunately its quite difficult to pin down exactly why i finally managed to relax wih with grip and strokes. I respected my coach and he was able to demonstrate his very relaxed style. He would say loosen up and I did! I just focused on it every time I practised, and in matches I tried to think about relaxed technique rathe than winning and losing. really the pain was so bad with the elbow that it was clear to me that I had to change or stop playing. It would have been far better if i had learnt better relaxed technique from the start moreover now that I coach beginners i have become aware that its very difficult to teach youngsters to loosen up as the cause is often psychological. i once taught a kid with really awful tense uncoordinated strokes who couldnt combine backhand and forehand at all in spite of his strong motiivation. One day just for a change I asked him to try trad penhold bh instead of his normal shakehand style, and to my surprise he started executing a good trad ph block Immediately- and he looked relaxed ! so i asked him to try ph fh and again he performed correct and relaxed. He told me he had never even thought about ph before my conclusion ? not that he was a born ph player but that asking him to do a completely foreign stroke released him from all the subconscious inhibitions that mentally blocked him from learning at first. After a few ph sessions i tried him on shakehands again and he started to stroke much better. however a year later when he started competition, started to stiffen and show bad coordination under pressure for instance even though his strokes now seemed ok, his error rate with 3rd ball was terrible. so perhaps if you have an inborn tendency towards tension its difficult to overcome sorry this is a long way of saying "its all in the mind" Edited by pingpongpaddy - 12/23/2019 at 10:04am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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The issue is usually the twisting and turning at the lumbar region which should really be braced properly. I find that if I actively brace the lumbar region I don't have any lower back soreness at all.
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Simas
Super Member Joined: 09/04/2017 Location: EU Status: Offline Points: 450 |
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Lower back problems are often caused by lower body front and back muscle group imbalances. Soreness should indicate, that these muscle groups are weaker compared to other groups. More usually the case with the lower back soreness is that it is the outcome of some other muscle groups being weaker. And as you mentioned glutes are a very common cause. Try stretching lower back and strengthen glutes. Also it is a common case, that the problem is not with gluteus maximus (the big outer most muscle), but with gluteus medius (smaller muscle behind gluteus maximus), so look for exercises specifically for different gluteus muscle groups and see if your back is getting better in time. There are a lot of exercises and stretches on internet. But just wanted to state the obvious, first of all, go to the doctor
Drop here! Edited by Simas - 12/23/2019 at 5:42am |
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Simas
Super Member Joined: 09/04/2017 Location: EU Status: Offline Points: 450 |
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Drop here! I think that's a very good and very relevant advice. I had (and I am still in the risk zone) tennis elbow repeatedly and I also have an intuitive feeling that properly relaxing your arm could be a big part of solution to it. My FH technique is pretty good (it's EU - Timo Boll'ish style ) and it's pretty relaxed except the times when I wan't to make an all powerful all spinny topspin kill shot. At those moments my arm get's all locked to transmit maximum power from my upper body and I think that at these moment some damage to my tendon maybe added. I am trying to relax my arm at those particular moments when chasing the killshot... but that's sort of counterintuitive or smth and I am not that successful at those instances
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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I often have soreness in my lower back and glutes. Any good targeted exercises, esp. for lower back?
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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I understand your pain. I started getting pain in my heel in early September. I kept playing through the pain until 12 days ago. Doctor said I fractured my heel and now I'm in a boot and not playing at all for another 5 weeks. It's so tempting to pick up a paddle and hit a few with friends.
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Makelele
Super Member Joined: 11/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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I think that soreness is almost inevitable in any hard work no matter how fit you are, but relaxation sure should help because when you are tense, a hard work is "harder". I think proper rest of the muscles (and specially having good sleep at night) are the best medicine for soreness. Concerning the stretching of some muscles after workout, I don't know if scientific evidence shows that is useful or not, but at least for me a very light strechting of my legs' muscles after workout "feels good". But relaxation seems to be not only good to the player's health, but also a key factor for stroke efficiency. A kind of "lost secret" that is well known by every player in theory but that not many people know how to make it part of their real ping pong life (including me).And when someone could achieve it, I'm always looking forward to hear how he did it. So would you mind sharing some specifics of that advice that you received and how did you manage to make of it an habit? Edited by Makelele - 12/22/2019 at 8:19pm |
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Makelele
Super Member Joined: 11/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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Deleted
Edited by Makelele - 12/22/2019 at 7:45pm |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Some great answers here.
Another perhaps more fundamental solution involves learning to relax your limbs when making your table tennis strokes. I have been playing and training for 50+ years. For the first 25 I experienced terrible tennis elbow to the extent of considering stopping altogether. Then I got some very good advice to learn to loosen up my grip and relax my stroke and within a couple of years the elbow inflammation which had been a constant companion disappeared almost completely. Before this I had just accepted that pain was a normal result of intense effort using the stories of Rod Laver icing his elbow as justification. Now I know better and mostly just suffer the normal lactic acid related aches |
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inactive dotec carbokev
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yes. Very good point worth making. Plus the NSAID use can be pretty hard on you.
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Joo Se Kev
Super Member Joined: 03/06/2006 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 208 |
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This 100%. Slowly building up to a given training volume and engaging the repeated bout effect by splitting your training into smaller, more frequent chunks is a great way to prevent excessive soreness. Beyond that, performing a proper warm-up (raise body temperature, dynamic stretches, movement prep, etc.) and supporting your training with proper nutrition and plenty of sleep is also super important. Want to do a bit extra? Post workout massage, compression garments, and post workout low intensity cycling as a cool-down all have some research supporting their efficacy. I would avoid frequent ice baths or heavy NSAID usage as both of those protocols have been shown to potentially interfere with training adaptations. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Here is a fantastic review article on the topic of delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS). It covers pretty much every possible treatment option that has been proposed and summarizes the studies as to whether they work or not (and whether they make things worse). It covers everything that has been mentioned here plus a bunch of things that haven't been mentioned (cryotherapy, compression, etc.). It is so comprehensive and readable I almost think we should sticky it. Edited by Baal - 11/05/2019 at 12:36pm |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1011 |
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I am surprised nobody mentioned iboprufen and other tylenol solutions:
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man_iii
Member Joined: 01/21/2017 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 74 |
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my bad :-D
Edited by man_iii - 11/05/2019 at 8:01am |
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Simas
Super Member Joined: 09/04/2017 Location: EU Status: Offline Points: 450 |
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by the way, I don't find muscle soreness to be that painful, I'd say it's a rewarding feeling for me :)
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lasta
Member Joined: 12/04/2018 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 86 |
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Light stretching and rest are ideal. If you really have to push through the pain and keep going: 1. A combination of Paracetamol and Ibuprofen. 2. Codeine, for stubborn all over soreness, but mix with caffeine to counter-act the "slowdown effects". 3. Indomethacin in localized sprays. I find the whole Tiger Balm and Eucalyptus oil stuff only works for temporary relief/distraction, won't keep you going. Topical lidocaine helps, but the duration is low too, also numbs the muscle group so you can't use it effectively. Paracetamol, Ibuprofen and Indomethacin shouldn't be problems for anti-doping tests. Not sure about Codeine.
Edited by lasta - 11/05/2019 at 3:54am |
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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+1 There is treating muscle soreness vs preventing muscle soreness. 2 different things altogether ... Stretching, foam roller, massage, ibuprofen, doing light movement/exercise, and of course resting are all ways to treat muscle soreness. They are going to do virtually nothing for you as far as preventing muscle soreness though. Preventing muscle soreness is more about preparing your body for intense efforts by building up with regular exercise that is specific to the sport's particular mechanics, i.e. movements. You can do this by simply just participating in the sport only, starting with shorter and lower effort training sessions, and then ramping up to longer and more intense efforts along with proper rest in between training sessions. You can also use cross training, but you need to find other exercises or activities that complement your targeted sports mechanics. Finally, you can be very precise by using weight room and/or plyometric exercises that specifically target your sport's motions. The most important factors are having the correct effort level and regularity of your training sessions. If you do it right then you should be able to build up your training sessions such that you do not experience much muscle soreness along the way. If you don't maintain your workouts with enough regularity you will not progress and may even go backwards in preparing for intense effort of competition. I have found that cross training can really help build strength, as well as it provides a respite from playing TT only, which can lead to injury by too much repetition. For example, I do a lot of cycling (road and mountain bike) as well as a lot of X-C skiing and ice hockey in winter, and these activities are excellent at building a lot of lower body power. I need to find other activities though to better prepare for the twisting, turning, and lunging movements that are common in TT. Age is also a major factor. In my 20's and 30's I did more varied activities (e.g. rock climbing, running, hiking, cycling, tennis, squash, volleyball, basketball) and could seem to transition to new activities pretty quickly without much muscle soreness issues. Now in my mid-50's it is quite different and I'm much more careful to start slowly and ramp up when switching into an activity that I haven't been doing for awhile. For instance, if I haven't been running for a few months I know that when I start up again my first run will be very short. Unlike in younger days, if I just dart out and do a 3-mile run I will be sore as hell for a week! |
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Baal
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Pubmed is the best place to search the biomedical research literature. Scientists all over the world use it and it is free. You can type in key words like a Google search, or the name of an author, etc. What you get will be abstracts but there are often links to full articles you can get for free. Obviously, these are very technical articles but people can still find some of the answers they need. Here is the link: Here is an example. Using Pubmed, I just typed in the key words "stretching cycling performance" and found this one. (I won't tack on the whole abstract, basically they concluded that static stretching will hurt your performance if you are a road cyclist). J Strength Cond Res. 2011 Nov;25(11):2980-4. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0b013e318234e55f.
Time course of the effects of static stretching on cycling economy.I hope at least some forum members will find this useful. Many will know about it already. Edited by Baal - 11/04/2019 at 7:07pm |
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Simas
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Drop here! and after the elbow tendinitis is over, strengthening exercises
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Baal
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One last one. PLoS One. 2019 Jan 25;14(1):e0210318. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0210318. eCollection 2019. Dynamic stretching alone can impair slower velocity isokinetic performance of young male handball players for at least 24 hours.Author information
AbstractThere are many adult studies reporting static stretch (SS)-induced deficits and dynamic stretch (DS) performance improvements shortly after the intervention. However, there is only a single study examining stretch-induced performance changes with youth at 24 hours' post-stretch. The objective of this study was to examine physiological responses of young trained athletes at 24-hours after experiencing SS or DS protocols. Eight young male, elite handball players (age: 16.1±5.1 years) were tested prior to-, 3-minutes and 24-hours following the three conditions (DS, SS, Control) in a randomized and counterbalanced order. Similar volumes of SS (2 repetitions of 75s for each leg) and DS (5 repetitions of 30s for each leg) involved one stretch each for the quadriceps and hamstrings. Tests included (i) two 4s maximal voluntary isometric contractions (MVC) at 60° of knee flexion with 2-min rest, (ii) two maximal isokinetic contractions each at 60°/sec and 300°/sec with 1-min rest, and (iii) two drop jumps with 30-sec rest. To simulate a full warm-up, dynamic activity including 5 minutes of aerobic cycling (70 rpm; 1 kilopond), 4 submaximal isometric contractions and 4 drop jumps were instituted before the pre-tests and following the interventions. Two-way repeated measures ANOVAs revealed that 1) both the SS and control conditions exhibited knee extensor 60°.s-1 (SS:-10.3%; p = 0.04, Control: -8.7%; p = 0.07) and 300°.s-1 (SS: -12.9%; p = 0.005, Control: -16.3%; p = 0.02) isokinetic deficits at post-test, 2) DS impaired knee flexor 60°.s-1 isokinetic work and power-related measures at post-test (Work: -10.1%; p = 0.0006; Power: -19.1%; p = 0.08) and at 24-hours' post-test (Work: 9.9%; p = 0.023; Power: -9.6%; p = 0.01), 3) DS (12.07% and 10.47%) and SS (13.7% and 14.6%) enhanced knee flexor 300°.s-1 isokinetic force and power-related measures compared to control. In conclusion, testing-induced knee extensor isokinetic impairments were counterbalanced by DS, however the hip flexion DS could have produced minor muscle damage for at least 24-hours decreasing knee flexor forces and power at 60°.s-1. Translation, stretching before you play may hurt your performance. And while studies on so-called static stretching concluded this quite a long time ago, this is a study on so-called dynamic stretching. There is no good evidence that it reduces sports injuries or affects DOMS. Edited by Baal - 11/05/2019 at 12:35pm |
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Baal
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Yes. Steroids have that effect (both glucocorticoids and testoserone). Banned by WADA obviously. Interestingly ibuprofen not so much. There are some small clinical trials that suggested deep tissue massage can help slightly, but like most studies of those kinds of treatments, placebo controls were inadequate. I have posted an abstract from a study on foam rollers below. There is an emerging consensus in the sports medicine literature that stretching before or after workout does not reduce soreness or prevent injury, and stretching before activity can impair performance. (Most of what I have read on this pertains to cycling and running). Some would say the jury is still out but the larger studies are not very encouraging. I still do some stretching myself because it feels good. I dont expect much else out of it.
Edited by Baal - 11/04/2019 at 6:38pm |
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obesechopper
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Muscle soreness, same techniques as any other sport. Having said that, I don't think anything has actually been proven to reduce or quicken the recovery of muscle soreness -- outside of steroids!
Best thing you can do is get some good sleep and let those little cells repair the damage :) There are tons of other methods people use, but the results seem to vary from person to person.
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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"Tennis elbow is not muscle soreness. It is tendon degeneration and inflammation. The only solution is rest or to change something about the way you play. Probably both."
When I started playing TT seriously and training with a coach I was working full time using a computer (think of my arm gripping the mouse), then I would go home and practice playing guitar for who knows how many hours. So I was using my right elbow quite a lot. I ended up with tennis elbow and since the pain would not go away I went to the doctor. They supplied an injection that stopped the swelling to the tendon. I think the actual name is tendinitis. However, I had to stop playing guitar for 2 years. When I practice the pain will come back depending on how hard I practice. Sucks because I was making good progress with my guitar playing. When playing TT, I have seen many good players suffer from back pain as well. I get some back pain too and when this happens I take it easy for a week or two. Getting older sucks man! It also gets longer to recover. Hot/cold patches can help. I sometimes use Voltaren to alleviate the pain. Knees too will hurt, but I solved that by adding more cushioning on my TT shoes. FdT
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cole_ely
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Me too. I've been jacking with it for 2 years now.
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qpskfec
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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If specific muscles are sore, then work on making those stronger.
For example, after playing, my calf muscles used to be sore the next day. I started doing calf raises, working my way up to 50 reps, 3-4 X per week. No more soreness. Repeat the process for other muscles. In any targeted exercise, start slow and work your way up. |
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Depending on how hard and serious you are training and how bad your fatigue is or if it is something else...Like an injury or weakness hanging around.
I would try Stretch well before, Stretch well after. Then Stretch a bit more. Foam roller as Baal said is handy. Try and Strengthen and increase endurance in legs with targeted training like squats, skipping and running speed and endurance training. This may sound simple but rest days are needed even if you are young and very fit or practice another element of the game like service, return etc. |
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Baal
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Post exercise soreness, 24 to 48 he after exertion is pretty normal even for very fit athletes after a hard workout. (It is referred to as delayed onset muscle soreness, or DOMS). Some people think a foam roller helps reduce that. If your legs hurt all the time that is different. Especially knee pain.
Edited by Baal - 11/05/2019 at 12:32pm |
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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Try Absorbine Jr. ?
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