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Hugo CALDERANO x Timo Boll |
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jackwong23
Gold Member Joined: 08/14/2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1912 |
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if you pretent not see Stegerˊs complaint about the hiddeness of tanˊs serve, well, it is up to you. End of discussion. Umpires not calling tanˊs serves does not mean it is legal. His serves were illegal as the racket contact of his serves were not visible to his opponents. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I am not pretending to not see, it. I saw something and can not intepret what it was. You have not addressed my point that from the same point of view of that camera, Steger's serves were equally hidden. Clearly we are not going to convince each other, but I think it is a pretty small person who accuses other people of "cheating" on the basis of that evidence.
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Hugo's serves are just as legal as Timo's. Why? (edit: Both players' serves are tossed at a non-vertical angle except Hugo tosses higher, so it is more obvious.) The trajectory of Hugo's toss is as (if not more) vertical than Timo's serves, but it is because it is tossed higher, the ball falls down to the side of the table. So, if Timo were to toss his serve equally as high, the ball would too be falling quite a distance away from where tossed.
If you don't believe me, then I urge you to check Timo's serves in the video, just his first 3 serves will do. You will realise in each Timo's serve, the ball travels horizontally quite long in proportion to the vertical flight. So, the ball would too travel in the same manner as that in Hugo's serve, if Timo were to toss his serve as high. Think of physics. Remember, the rule is the ball must be tossed near vertical. Hugo's toss is as vertical as Timo's if not more so. (edit: The real questions would then be: 1) are both serving legally? 2) how should vertically be interpreted?) Edited by hithithit - 10/22/2014 at 12:19am |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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The issue is not the verticality or trajectory of the serve, but whether or not the ball remains visible to Timo for the entire duration. My opinion is that Timo probably can't see the serve from where he's standing, but since none of us possess supernatural powers, the only person in the universe that knows whether or not the serve is legal is Timo. Regardless of anything else, Calderano's serve is always illegal because he does not immediately remove his free arm "as soon as the ball has been projected" as the rule requires. |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Hey, thanks for your reply. Right, so we are questioning his free arm. In which case, I do see your point but the video is inconclusive as to whether the free arm obstructed Timo's view from where he was standing. As you have pointed out, Timo would know if visibility was hindered. Though note, Hugo's serve doesn't look too much different to the many Ma Long's serves he did in this video (yes, it is a training video, but nonetheless). Ma Long in training Edited by hithithit - 10/22/2014 at 1:33am |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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- blah - ignore - screwed up posting
Edited by hithithit - 10/22/2014 at 1:33am |
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naijachief
Gold Member Joined: 05/31/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1385 |
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Funny thread. The moral of the story is you cant beat Timo Boll unless you are using illegal serves and are somehow cheating or you are Chinese.....LOL
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who no know go know
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ZingyDNA
Platinum Member Joined: 09/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
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Yes, judging by this criteria, most top pros' serves are illegal. But umps can't fault most top pros' serves, can they? |
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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Criminy, these forums can be the official whiners club for nitpicking serves! Get over it people!
What Calderano is doing with his left arm is soooo common. ML, ZJK, FZD, XX, and YA all do the same thing, as so do so many others. Timo, Dima, and Samsonov are exceptions in that their serves kept in clear view throughout the serve, but IMO they're just being nice guys.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Ah, finally, the unstated subplot has been brought to light...
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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+1 This topic was pretty much laid to rest after that Chinese comment... Think that's about all we needed to hear. :)
Edited by suds79 - 10/22/2014 at 11:42am |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Timo and Dima are no exceptions. You can see in this video, they too also leave their free hands in the air for a large period of time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBBwdZMOfUc |
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LOOPMEISTER
Platinum Member Joined: 11/13/2008 Location: U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 2486 |
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------ Hugo Calderano has been improving like crazy in 2014. Anyone who follows many TT channels on YouTube, and watches a lot of matches (like me) knows this. Its no surprise that he can take out Timo. Timo is also in a transition zone right now. He has to fight harder than ever to stay competitive at the elite pro level. |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Timo and Dima serve no differently to the Chinese. In some serves, the free hand moves away just moments before the ball is struck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBBwdZMOfUc |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Here we go again... read before posting... The point naijachief was making was that people are really complaining because Timo Boll lost to a lower ranked non-Chinese player.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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I think I have highlighted that Hugo's free arm's position and movement during service is no different to that of Ma Long, Timo and Dima. And prior to that, I have highlighted his ball toss trajectory is as vertical (if not more so) than Timo's.
Hence, I think Hugo serves as legally as others - Ma Long, Timo and Dima. I just think some people are just shocked to see Timo getting beat by someone who isn't an established household name player. But, you got to remember, no one is invincible in sport. Upsets do happen. |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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I don't know if any of you guys are referring to me or not, but let me make it clear that I personally could care less whether or not Timo Boll loses to a non-Chinese player. Boll did not lose this match because Calderano did not remove his free arm, but that doesn't change the fact that Calderano's serve is illegal according to the rules. So is the high toss serve of Ma Long, Ovtcharov, and many others...
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GMan4911
Silver Member Joined: 08/31/2012 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 830 |
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Even though Calderano doesn't remove his free arm, at least it doesn't obstruct your view of the serve, IMO. What's illegal is him hiding the serve with his body and difficult to see unless you're standing on the opposite diagonal. Either way, except for a few instances, Boll didn't seem to have any problems with it.
That raises the question - is it the responsibility of the receiver to stand in a position so that he can see the serve clearly? The rule only states that it is the responsibility of the server to ensure that the serve is not hidden and if Boll were standing more to his right, it would be hidden. |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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According to the rules, It is the responsibility of the server to make sure that the serve is always visible to the receiver at all times until the ball is struck. Imagine the following scenario: Two right handed players are playing and both the server and receiver are standing in the classic backhand corner positions. The server is making his serves relatively close to his body, but he is still "absolutely certain" that the receiver can see all his serves. He is having good success serving short to his opponent's forehand. In order to counter this, the receiver decides he is going to step over to his right after the ball is tossed and play the modern backhand flip from the FH side. According to the rules as written, the server would need to detect this movement from the receiver and make a last minute adjustment to his serve (by opening up his body) after he has already tossed the ball, in order to ensure that he is absolutely certain the receiver can see the ball. So yes, not only is it stupid to presume that an umpire can tell whether or not a serve is visible for a receiver, but is also ridiculous to expect a server to be certain that his serve is visible to a moving target.
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Well, this answers the question about whose responsibility to ensure the ball is visible at all times during service.
2.06.06 It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yes. And if the umpires are satisfied that pretty much settles the matter.
Anyway, it is nice to see someone new emerge, especially someone from one of the continents not well represented among the top echelons. It's good for the sport. |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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From what I have gathered, it seems like a number of people just want to find excuses or reasons on why Timo was defeated, thus all these talks on Hugo's serves being illegal. Nothing to do with Hugo being non-Chinese, or Timo beat by a lower ranked non-Chinese, because if that was the case, the discussion would have turned to who else (lower ranked) have beat Timo in the past. And the discussion would then probably led to Chinese vs European strokes. I think, thus far, I have proven Hugo's serves are as legal as anyone else's, be it Ma Long, Dima and Timo. I think people who are questioning Hugo's serves just have to eat a slice of humble pie and Come to terms that Hugo played better on the day, and to his credit. No one is invincible. |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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the thing is if his serves look a bit dodgy to some members here and seem to give the server some advantage, then thats it, It dosn't have be argued and won
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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+1 I too hope to see more successes from the developing continents - South America, Africa, North America and Oceania; as that would mean the sport is taken seriously by more people globally - statistics reasoning. |
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