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destroyer spin
Member Joined: 12/26/2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 at 5:17pm |
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when will you generate more spin: when your opponent hits topspin and you hit topspin too or when your opponent hit topspin and you chop it? anyone who knows,please help! |
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agooding2
Super Member Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Points: 243 |
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When you chop their topspin you are continuing and adding to their spin. That's why the spin gets heavier between an attacking player and a chopper as each time the chopper adds more spin to the topspin.
When you topspin their topspin, you have to cancel their spin and generate your own spin, just as when you push a push. -- Andrew |
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destroyer spin
Member Joined: 12/26/2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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tnx a lot andrew.
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destroyer spin
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By the way, what style do you play?
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agooding2
Super Member Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Points: 243 |
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I'm a pips out penholder, so I try to continue spin when I can, adding to sidespin and looping or flipping underspin. I don't chop though.
-- Andrew |
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destroyer spin
Member Joined: 12/26/2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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how long have you been playing?
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agooding2
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20 years, but only the last 8 very seriously.
--Andrew |
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Jason7036
Beginner Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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I don't think that what agooding2 said is correct. When hitting a topspin shot with topspin the force of the incoming spin is added to the applied, which means a lot of speed and spin results. When hitiing an underspin ball the incoming spin is not added much, so less speed and spin result. Think of it like soccer. If you kick a ball rolling towards you, it will generally go further then kicking a ball moving the same direction before and after you kick it. That is why topspin to topspin, or theoretically underspin to underspin shots go faster.
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agooding2
Super Member Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Points: 243 |
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Relooping will go faster, but the question was which will generate more spin, not which will generate more speed. Of course topspin to topspin will go faster, but topspin to underspin means the spin can build up.
-- Andrew |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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Judging by the results I get, the spinniest shot I hit is looping up vs heavy backspin. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Sorry Andrew I agree with Jason this time.
When I analysed this 40 years ago i was fortunate to have a brother who is a physicist. No Doubt many of you are science whizzkids who got it right all on their own! The following applies to normal rubber(inverted and sp) Also please think of the items below as pure examples not match situations. Some of you may not be comfortable being this scientific- Dont worry about it the natural approach is the easiest and most popular way to learn tt. However if you do follow this you may suddenly see how you can apply your spinning efforts more effectively - I know it was good for me.
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yes in a topspin to topspin rally the last player to topspin has the opportunity to topspin more for the same effort as the other player likewise in a chop to chop rally the last player has the opportunity to chop the ball with most spin. Try pushing heavy chop with yr practice partner. You will both have to go under the ball more and more as the spin increases. =============
no, when you chop against topspin, you will only increase the spin if you chop downwards faster than the topspinners racket moved upwards. Likewise the topspinner will only increase the spin on the ball if his racket moves upward faster then the chop moved downward. This really helps me to play top against chop.- when the chopper chops one heavier I know why I must brush up a bit faster to go over the net. If you apply 9 units of loop against 10 units of low chopped ball the ball goes in the net. 11 units of top means lift and more spin will be generated
The key to understanding this is to realize that you must consider the relative speeds of bat and ball approaching each other. In chop to chop or top to top the speed of the brushing contact is increased by the spin. In top to chop or chop to top the speed of the brushing contact is reduced because the ball is revolving away from the approaching racket. Now you can see why a high toss service helps you to generate topspin! (increased speed of falling ball approaching upward moving racket). Now try this. Get partner to do tomahawk serve to yr bh. Jab yr return back on the outside of the ball:- his spin will help you to send back a viscious sidespin block shot back. Finally put yr racket on the table with normal rubber face up. with another racket spin a ball such that it falls on the rubber from maybe six inches (Horizontal axis). The ball will kick forward,backward,forward backward, untill it loses momentum btw While its true that if opp chops three chops each heavier than the last and you loop them all back you are also looping heavier each time - otherwise you'd go in the net. But the chop is not helping you to put on spin- merely requiring that you spin heavily to return that chop! |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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destroyer spin
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i never thought about it that way. tnx a lot pingpongpaddy so,agooding2 it seems that i was right about the serve return. |
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agooding2
Super Member Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Points: 243 |
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"so,agooding2 it seems that i was right about the serve return."
Uh, no. You had the serve return backwards when describing returns of sidespin. Contacting on the left side of a counterclockwise spinning ball stops the spin and reverses it (just like pushing a backspin serve reverses the spin rather than adding to it) while contacting on the right side of the ball with a forward motion can continue the spin and give it back to the server. What pingpongpaddy is describing is topspin to topspin, versus topspin to chop rallies, where speed and spin builds up. Not the same situation as a serve return. What I wonder is why the spin gets heavier and the topspinner has to compensate if the chopper isn't adding to the spin with their own chop motion? -- Andrew |
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destroyer spin
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are you 100% sure? cuz this what pingpongpaddy described seems to me very convincing even for the sidespin. if you're not 100% sure i would like pingpongpaddy to reply this. |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Sorry i wasnt clear enough. lets assume that 10 units of chops can be returned by 10 units of loop, and 9 units of loop is in the net, 11 units is higher and more spin, 12 is too long if the chopper gives it 9 and looper gives it 10 result is higher , more spin still good but looper gives it 11 then too long if chopper gives it 11 then looper should give 11 or 12 (10 would be in the net) So what i am saying is that for the looper to add spin to the chopped ball he should be brushing the ball faster than the choppers stroke. This is why against the really heavy chop ball the slightly open racket roll topspin is effective because you are no longer competing bicep muscle v bicep muscle. In the same way if i am chopping against you, and you always succeed in making me pop up with your loop, i can counteract this by brushing downward faster if I have the skill. (alternatively i could change the racket angle, but then that is outside this analysis of spin effect) Folks these two posts are not recommending looping and chopping stronger and stronger as a solution or tactic, its just observing what forces are at work. Once you understand the principles the shot you may chooose non spin solutions in many case. Ill just expand a bit on topspin to topspin as that is one of the more exciting shot to use. Now because the first looper has put in 10 units of loop, the relooper only has to putin 3 units of effort to send back a 13 unit ... then the first guy puts in 3 and its up to sixteen etc. Notice how in those rallies the banana flight becomes more pronounced? What follows is that the relooper should put all his effort into quality of contact in order to get max spin. Chops Ever notice that when you do a really heavy chop serve to a strong player sometimes he can chisel it back with what seems a small wrist motion? Thats because your heavy chop serve has helped him to add backspin to the ball! |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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destroyer spin
Member Joined: 12/26/2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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but is the same effect at sidespin?
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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I would say that the effect is the same whether topspin to topspin, backspin to backspin or sidespin to sidespin. To get the idea of sidespin think of a righthander and a lefthander fh sidespin looping to each other. In that case the sidespin element of the loop will multiply more than if it were two right handers (where in respect of sidespin the spin reduces the speed of the sidespin stroke because the ball is not rotating toward the blade approaching it. |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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destroyer spin
Member Joined: 12/26/2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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so what you are trying to say is that when my opponent (lets say he's a righthander) serves forehand sidespin (clockwise movement) when you close blade on right it will gain counter clockwise sidespin and that sidespin will be spinnier than when you close bat to left side. I hope you understand. |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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This is the test that will allow you to demonstrate the catapult effect of the rotating ball on the rubber.
In the test below the observer will see the rotation of the ball change direction with every bounce! Finally put yr racket on the table with normal rubber face up. with another racket spin a ball such that it falls on the rubber from maybe six inches (Horizontal axis). The ball will kick forward,backward,forward backward, untill it loses momentum Now remember all motion is relative! In the above example the racket is stationary on the table and the ball is moving relative to the observer. But relative to the ball the racket is moving! Enough! |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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agooding2
Super Member Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Points: 243 |
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If a right hander serves a forehand sidespin, then it will rotate to his right, (your left). Correct? If so that would be clockwise and you have the choice of either stopping his spin, by contacting on your right side or letting it continue or even adding to it by brushing it on your left side so you continue the spin. Try it yourself and see which return ends up with more sidespin. I'm not talking about multiple exchanges, just a simple serve return. You aren't going to give him as much spin by stopping his spin and then reversing it as you will by continuing his spin.
Think of it this way, which has more spin: 1) A loop off an underspin serve or push or 2) A loop off of a topspin ball? The loop off underspin has more spin because you are adding to the spin. Particularly with non grippy surfaces, like short pips that is one of the few ways you can give your opponent heavy spin by continuing their spin. The loop off topspin, even for inverted players is generally faster and flatter, not spinnier. In relooping rallies or with multiple pushes, I can see how the spin can build up through a catapult effect multiplying the spin, but the spin also builds up in topspin to chop rallies as with each exchange the looper has to work harder and harder to get the ball over the net and the ball tends to end up in the bottom of the net when the looper can't lift it anymore. See Ma Lin versus Joo in the 2004 WC for an example. Ma couldn't get the ball over the net after a few strokes. Joo was both chopping and his pips let the spin continue so the underspin coming back to Ma was heavier each time. One of the reasons the Chinese said afterward that they didn't do well against the long pip choppers (Joo and Che Weixing) is that they were used to short pips choppers who didn't return as heavy a spin as the long pips choppers did. -- Andrew |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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if the chopper gives it 9 The looper can give it 11, he just has to close his blade more. He can also give it 8 if he opens his face up enough. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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destroyer spin
Member Joined: 12/26/2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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i'm logging out. Time to go to bed. Tomorrow it will be PARTY for new year!
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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I agree, but then in the open racket case we wouldnt be talking about the same thing. I am not talking good/bad shots just simply whether top-top is easier increase spin against than top-chop. Cole, just put yr normmal inverted bat on the table, spin the ball with horizontal axis and observe where it kicks to. Then write down how it changes direction. After 3 4 bounces youll be convinced Then imagine yr in umps chair watching two players chop push at each other. Thats one of the situations where it occurs ANYWAY Happy NEW YEAR all |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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agooding2
Super Member Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Points: 243 |
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Yes, the grippiness of the rubber means you can reverse the spin and change it from one direction to another. It doesn't mean that reversing the spin will add to it unless you factor in racket angles and increased force applied in order to reverse the spin.
A serve return of sidespin is not in the same category as a relooping rally as generally you don't rally sidespin to sidespin. Here's what Greg Letts, the About.com guide had to say about adding to the spin using short pips: http://tabletennis.about.com/od/basicconcepts/a/play_short_pips_2.htm From Greg Letts, Your Guide to Table Tennis / Ping-Pong. Suggestion #4: Send It Back "Not only are most short pips relatively unaffected by the spin put on the ball by an opponent, they are also quite good at sending that spin straight back at him. As part of my research for this article (yes, I do do research from time to time!), I was watching a DVD of Peter Karlsson of Sweden play He Zhi Wen of Spain in the 2005 World Championships. It was quite interesting to watch Karlsson serving the ball with heavy sidespin, only to have He Zhi Wen touch the ball back without trying to spin it himself, just allowing Karlsson's spin to keep going. The ball would often bounce sideways on Karlsson's side of the table, making life difficult for the Swede. Most inverted rubber players seem to kill the spin when returning serve in contrast, or put their own spin on the ball, so the ball rarely jumps sideways like that on the return of serve. A shot that looked so simple by He Zhi Wen actually became very effective." So Letts is saying that He Zhi Wen sends back more spin to Karlsson by letting the sidespin continue rather than by cancelling it and trying to add his own. This is more difficult to do with grippy inverted rubbers as the grip makes it harder to continue the spin. Also the spin is the opposite direction from what Karlsson is used to, which makes his life even more difficult. -- Andrew |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Interesting, but i would say that yes spin went back but it would have been the opposite spin:
HZW bat was motionless the ball was in motion. The spin from karlsons serve would have meant that the surface of the ball would either increase or decrease the overall speed of the brushing contact depending on whether it was rotating toward hzw bat (increase) rotating away hzw bat (decrease) axis of spin contacts hzw bat (not much effect) I read Letts stuff some time ago and was interested to do my bat on table test again and found that with 651,652,802, 802-40 the bounce skipping back and forth ws the same as for inverted. I got the impression that he had observed well but not with the science of it to the forefront of his mind(and who can blame him, because its quite counter intuitive) Andrew in physics motion is relative: it doesnt matter which moves ball or bat. Its how they move in relation to each other which defines the direction of brushing contact. Then the elasticity of the rubber having been dragged in one direction by the ball it is gripping rebounds thus spinning the ball. At relatively low amounts of spin and speed the effect of ball will be as I set out, because the traction limit of the rubber has not been reached. Certainly with spinny rubbers the traction is so great that it must be difficult to make the ball slip or skid on mark v or sriver for instance. This traction is why spin shots feel heavy: NEWTON said (to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction)the rubber is being compressed (action) and rebounds (reaction)generating spin. Since the bigger ball I do think there is a capacity for the ball to skid on sp (spinny incoming loop, light touch block with closed racket ) because I think I can hear the ball skid, and I can see the trajectory and bounce of the ball. I have discussed that in another thread. |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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agooding2
Super Member Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Points: 243 |
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Yes, but what you're still missing is that if He Zhi Wen touched the ball on the side that the ball is rotating towards him, that would stop the spin and start it the other way.
Only by touching lightly on the side that the ball is rotating away from him can he leave the spin on the ball or even increase the spin if he brushes the ball in the same direction that the ball is rotating in. Short pips makes this easier as the ball can skid on them, as you and I have both noticed on blocks. -- Andrew |
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pingpongpaddy
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Andrew i'm sorry it takes me a while to get my head round the clockwise terminology you used, but i think we are on the same wave-length I agree that in case1 there is potential for him to get more spin in case1 than case2 because his brushing stroke lets say 5 units will be increased by the units caused by the sidespin rotation left on the ball after its bounced lets say 2 units. If we apply case2 stroking with the effort on the side of the ball rotating away then the 2 units of rotation will work against him and should be subtracted from his 5 units. Of course he could move his racket faster to get abetter result. A couple of things arise from this (using the existing ball rotation to generate spin) one is that in case1 there is a chance to get stronger spin than the server will expect from the apparent effort of the receiver. The other is that one can sometimes seem to be not generating spin at all when in fact the ball does the work for the receiver! This is my last post of 2006 Happy NEW YEAR and good results to all |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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agooding2
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I know, sidespin depends on the perspective of the server and receiver. It would be much easier if we had a diagram or saw it done in person.
My coach uses a bigger ball (size of a baseball or cricket ball) to demonstrate it as then it's easier to see. I see you're going with Flarestorm on both sides now. How do you like it compared to other rubbers you've used? Is there a clear tension effect? Anyway, Happy New Year to you too. We've got 5 more hours to go on this side of the pond. -- Andrew |
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pingpongpaddy
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Andrew
Large ball sounds useful i'll look into it for what little coaching I do now. what clued me up to the physics of spin was attending a tt training camp forty years ago at an indoor cricket(that english game) school which had a rubber floor. Every time a top spin hit the deck it bounced & rolled forward normally, but every chop bounced back, then forward, then back.. etc. I rang my brother and he said NEWTON and put the phone down! The flarestorm is excellent. The most power of any pimple out rubber I have used and quite spinny too. The sponge is quite hard. However I may go back to Tyranno for my Bh its also high tension but softer and my bh is more of a control shot. As a shakehander I can have max on my fh and 1.5 on bh. I first bought Flarestorm from a us web site for my fh, and i got the thickest which was 2.1. However i discovered that on the butterfly web site there was MAX (more than 2.2) I eventually got some Max from iruiru, but maybe you as a ph wont need max? I must say i would like to see a high tension version of 802-40 as that was the rubber which had the best qualities for my fh. I got top sheets only from zeropong and would cannibalize a japanese rubber for the faster sponge. But until that happens its flarestorm for me I notice you are an sp ph . I play in a club dominated by chinese penholders, a couple of them sp. The big problem for them as ph is that they want to maximise power on fh but this means sacrificing control on Bh. Before High Tension rubbers they were using chinese sp 651 or 802 but since bigger ball they are finding that they want even more power and chinese rubbers are only up to it at Max thickness, which is no good for control. (They prefer 1.5 thickness so they can feel the wood) Since High tension came out they have tried Tyranno and Raystorm and are much happier- good combi of touch on block and power on kill. The best of these guys is over 50 but would still be about 3000 uk rating. He's used the same racket for 30 years and is so fussy about the thickness of his rubber! I am quite lucky to have his input on matchplay - Play without fear is his favourite advice. Well its 2007 now and I am going to get some sleep |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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agooding2
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I'm using Joola Tango Ultra, which is soft but tensioned so still pretty fast. I used to use 2.0 but now I use 1.8 for better control. I still have plenty of power but I always have hit extremely hard so power wasn't an issue.
I'm now trying Dawei 388B which has excellent spin, maybe even better than 802-40 and a softer feel as well. Raystorm felt too hard for me as my Joola Guo 3C is very hard. If I had a softer blade like the hinoki I used to use I'd feel differently I'm sure. -- Andrew |
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