What one should look for in "a Coach"?
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Topic: What one should look for in "a Coach"?
Posted By: skip3119
Subject: What one should look for in "a Coach"?
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 11:21am
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If one wants to get a TT "Coach" for oneself or for one's offspring, what one should look for in that "Coach"?
(It probably has been discussed long time ago. With so many new members joined since then, it just may be worthwhile to re-visit this subject.)
Thank you very much for your thoughts.
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Update (after seeing a few replies): Your thoughts could include but not limited to the following.
The prospective "coach's" skill level, sportsmanship, character, etc.
------------- skip3119 |
Replies:
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 11:34am
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Knowledge Experience ability to teach affordable committment ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: BizLawProf
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 11:34am
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Yes, it's worthwhile to revisit especially in light of the flaming going on over a purported coach's attitude in another recently-closed topic here. I've hired a coach to work with some of my boys when we make it to the big city in our state. The reason I go with him is because he's patient, was very good (albeit not world class) as a player back in his prime, still has solid fundamentals and can hand most serious players' heads to them in a match even though he may be 2 or 3X their age, and doesn't beat his students down to prove his own superiority. He's a good role model as a sportsman. I want my boys to develop as human beings as well as players. |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 11:39am
Do "knowledge & experience" imply "skill level", in that, the coach must have certain "minimum skill level"? ------------- skip3119 |
pingpongpaddy wrote:Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 11:44am
What do you think? ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 11:49am
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Help their students to think on their own, outside the box. So they can come back even though down 0-2 in a match. -------------  Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 12:08pm
Available (date and time that is convenient for me), and affordable (a few hour lesson is not going to help, so I need to be able to afford long term), after a few lessons, if I don't feel the Coach is right for me, then I move on, but any Coach I work with is good for me so far. Not every one has the luxury of playing in LA, where there are many Coaches, and rich enough to afford to hire any Coach you want, so you can not be too picky. Note: The most important part to improve is to apply yourself, instead of expecting too much from the Coach. I was told that for every hour of lesson, I need about 6 hours of practice (what I learn), and 3 hours of playing game (apply what I practice). The only problem is I normally don't have 10hrs/week to do so  .
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Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 12:13pm
You should take videos of your training sessions so you can go over them at a later date. I always encourage my students to do that. ------------- Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 12:22pm
. But you are right, the problem was GONE afterward (I am too scared to make another video to confirm though).
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Posted By: ybok
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 12:28pm
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A good coach should not bend to your will, should be a little scary, should watch you closely, should be action oriented and not talk a lot, should be unnervingly honest about you, should give short clear direction, should love teaching fundamentals. Pick an older coach if all other things are equal. Most of this is from 'The Little Book of Talent' by Daniel Coyle.
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Posted By: BMonkey
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 12:59pm
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First, you should figure out what kind of student you or your offspring are. Are you in it for the long haul (meaning wanting to be a frequent student over a long period of time)? Are you in good health? Will you skip training for every little "important" event that comes along? Do you take direction well? Do you have realistic goals defined for yourself that your coach can bring you to? Do you know your current level? (honestly) Being honest with yourself about who you are, can make it easier to pick a coach. For example, Bojan Tokic came to the US for a training camp this summer in Atlanta. We had a 50 year old female 1100 player who only plays casually, travel halfway across the country to this and get coaching from him and I couldn't help but roll my eyes a bit. Talk about overkill. Total waste of her money and his time in my opinion. The bigger your goals, the bigger the qualifications needed for your coach, but also, the bigger the commitment needed from you the student.
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Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 1:26pm
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Do the prospective coach's "sportsmanship" & "character" count for anything beside the minimum skill level? Or, they are non-factors.
------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: in2spin
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 1:29pm
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a slightly different perspective: do the students (if they are children) - truly want to play tt? do they have a desire to want to improve and learn? one of my big pet peeves is former or current tt parents who automatically assume their kids want to play tt also, the kids are subsequently dumped off on a teacher/coach - who is willing to teach, however the kids/students are not willing to learn. the worst thing as a coach is expectation that the students want to learn tt, when in truth all you are doing is baby sitting. a student will only improve if they themselves have the desire to want to learn and improve. some kids/students thrive at the beginning in a group setting, using peer group pressure to improve (kid A hit 20 fh's in a row, i want to try to beat that...). some kinds/students want or need one-on-one coaching. it really is about individual desire and the ability to use that desire to extract successful skills. if a kid/student doesn't want to learn - it doesn't matter how good the coach is conversely - a good coach will be able to create the enthusiasm and "spark" necessary to attract that willingness to improve and learn. the actual playing ability of the coach is not as important as recognition of what level the student is at, and how to make the student improve, and gain ability to understand, grasp concepts and improve :)
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Posted By: N.Cali PLayer
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 1:39pm
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The most important thing in my mind is to ask people their experiences with the coaching from the coach you might be interested in hiring. Its a business and you should treat it as such, meaning get referrals. In this case, referrals would be asking students, or parents of students what they feel are coaches strengths and weaknesses. In my area there are 3 different coaches, and various people have used them, so I can ask around in a constructive way what are there thoughts on the differences. This is a polite way of asking  When you looking for help with a jr, the best situation is group instruction, its cheaper and more fun for the child. |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 2:05pm
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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 2:07pm
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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 2:10pm
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 2:48pm
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Where do you live? |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 2:56pm
I have coached high school kids and young club players. The problem is them not wanting to learn, the problem is they have an attention span of a rock, easily getting distracted by external things like girls, talking, boys, basketball in the next court, IPhones, electronic messages, can I go to the bathroom?, I'm tired, he is cheating, do I have to play with a girl?  The biggest attribute a coach can have coaching kids is PATIENTS! Mid Level and advanced players need experienced certified coaches but there are exceptions. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 3:20pm
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Find the right balance between talking and playing: Too many coaches have a hard time to explain complex ideas about strokes and are not prepared well enough to express in a minimum amount of words what they want from their coachees so the coachee may be frustrated to stand and listen with 'respect' to long explanations that eats up too much time out of the hour of training. Those who do not talk at all don't bring the best of themselves either and the coachee keeps doing the same thing for too long without progressing as fast as (s)he could. It's all in the balance baby! ------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 6:15pm
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In some parts of the country, the biggest challenge in finding a coach is simply finding a coach -- any coach! When I was a kid growing up, after we moved back to the US, there was precious little coaching to be had where I was living. Probably still true there. Hopefully you have choices, but you may not. If you have lots of choices, maybe you could watch them coach a bit. Depends on your level, kids ages, goals, etc. No one size fits all. Maybe the best coach for your kids is not the best coach for you and vice versa. There is a person here who is an absolute genius with small kids and it's not like she's bad with adults, but with kids she is amazing. And there is a guy here who is great with under-2000 middle aged players. He really helps people get better but he pretty much refuses to coach kids. |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 7:13pm
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A coach like a teacher in general can only guide, not learn for the student, and teachers who aren't cognizant of this are responsible for many failures in serious teaching. They often look for "disciples" or even their protege, which can lead to worse results than you would think for the effort put in. When the relationship is slight like in large classrooms, both the responsibility and failures are more in the students' hands, yet the product here is often just as good as private tutor. Worth thinking about for a min. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 7:20pm
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More specifically, at low level it really is like baby sitting. You're looking more for and motivating basic enthusiasm. Once the student can get over the hump of doing some disciplined work (ie teachable) simple basic skills go a long way. Anyone who can read the manual can do this, which is why autodidactic types can get pretty far. The most important thing here which some experience can help is avoid bad habits. Only at higher level is some advanced understanding of the subject really necessary. However, the way basic economics works, when the market is saturated people naturally go for better players to teach them at similar rates even when it's pretty unnecessary. More specific to TT, some play ability does matter in drilling/practice partner more than coach. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 7:58pm
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I have introduced many people to the game as a coach and each time I was never forgetting to underline that whatever I was saying was not arguable, accepted as dogma by all coaches; that I liked to talk about the game and was just giving food for thoughts; that it was his or her responsibility to do some research and assemble all info gathered from me, other players and the web (youtube, forums...) to build his or her own game. That way I never had any problem that comes with the master-disciple relationship; it was more like 2 new tt buddies meeting each other and enjoying time together doing what they both like a lot. They ALL came back after the introductory hour; my record is 1.5 hour/week at his home for almost 2 years. Since it works so well I keep doing it that way even though I am not motivated to coach anymore. ------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 10:23pm
So do you take PayPal ?  ------------- Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 08/29/2013 at 10:36pm
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a coach must be min 2650 level and have a youtube vid of himself well that's what most posters ask ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: SeeReed
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 2:44am
Armed with above guidelines go to your local TT tournaments. Look how the coach interact with their student(s). If you have chance, go talk to the parents, player or club member about their coach. In most cases, you will have chance talk to the coach too. If you interest in some coach and want to find out their rates. Go talk to the coach or club manager. |
Posted By: BizLawProf
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 12:45pm
Of course they're huge factors, especially if it's a child who's being coached. If I throw my kids into the hands of some frustrated, embittered ex-playing pro who never quite got to the level he/she wanted and now has a general contempt for the world, why would I not expect that attitude to affect my kids? Anyone want this guy coaching your kids? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 1:16pm
LOL, in Nebraska? That one made my day! ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 1:21pm
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In my mind good coach will: 1. Have knowledge of the game and the sport - must know what it takes to "build a player" 2. Understand technique and its history - including new trends and must have ideas where the next trends might be 3. Have patience 4. Be a mentor and educator - need to teach other things besides technique 5. Be a good motivator committed to driving player's development. If the player stagnates because he does not trust the coach or believe in what the coach teaches, the relationship will not work, so its best for both player and coach to part. 6. Be capable of thinking outside the box. Each player will need individualized attention with different strengths, and different methods necessary to let the player develop technical, mental, and physical skills. 7. Know how to teach material and coach in a match without negative pressure, negative emotions, but with positive objective instructions 8. Will be committed to the player during the lessons as well as outside the lesson, phone, email, etc. Players need support and input outside of the court and sometimes they are very important. 9. Will know how to keep player's interest in the game, making lessons interesting, insightful, and fun. ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 1:23pm
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Obviously all of the abovementioned require excellent communication. ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 2:51pm
+1. I also believe there are different levels of coaches. Once the student is ready for the next level, the coach needs to prepare and hand off the student to a higher level coach. ------------- Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 2:52pm
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I don't think that a coach has to be at 2650 level. Not at all. Actually all coaches here in MA (that I know of) have no USATT rating whatsoever. They coach a lot and they do not have time for training. They, probably, also do not have any desire to go and play tournaments - they are fed up with competition play from first 20-30 years of their lives. However, their coaching level is no doubt extremely high. They are very knowledgeable, they see your problems right away, they understand very quickly what your limitations are, what you can and what you cannot do, etc. You will never hear one of them telling a 50-year old overweight "student" that he needs to do a Falkenberg drill to work on his footwork... that's what I (in person) heard one of alleged coaches tell a guy in another club (somewhere else). Also good coach has to be patient, has to set proper, achievable goals etc etc. Ideally he would be able to come to the tournaments with you - but that is unheard of in New England (unless the tournament happens to be taken place in his club). ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 2:59pm
Well, if you want them to do what it takes to win.... Srsrly that looks like some of the little league parents. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 7:06pm
------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 7:10pm
I agree. If player is not used to the drill (no matter age), super fast pace is just silly. Rather build up momentum, and even give the ball some arc too. |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 9:01pm
it is close to impossible to have a correct falkenberg drill without a quick pace; slow pace for fatt students in that drill is only possible when the coach is feeding; but then the point of the drill is kind of ruined  as the cycle gets broken into pieces and we have not the desired rhythm; but imo it is still good to build the drill into the person's muscle memory and go up in speed from there.------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: bogeyhunter
Date Posted: 08/30/2013 at 11:43pm
For kids, I would put Character as a must. I wouldn't hire coaches who someday teache "here's how to cheat" or "to win at all cost". I want my kid to play fair so a coach must be a role model. Must be able to make my kid understand "why you need to do this" and how to adjust things". Kids must be able to think and adjust when things don't go exactly like in lesson. If kids can do this, in the future they will find ways to come back after being down 0-2 or 0-3. ------------- www.NexyUSA.com We also carries Sauer & Tröger. Lissom O+EASY P 1mm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_65FLO2Lneo https://youtu.be/YgYFPJCBCr0 https://youtu.be/NeHp789Lb1c https://youtu.be/_65FLO2Lneo |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 08/31/2013 at 4:26am
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What if the kids are dumb? I've been told that kids are pretty dumb and that's why they teach simple things in lower grades. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/31/2013 at 12:09pm
This post reminds me of one other thing you should look for that is obvious but needs mentioning. A coach for your kids should actually like kids. |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 08/31/2013 at 2:30pm
By the same token, when they can do Falkenberg at slow pace 'forever' with good balance they are on the way to being good players ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: BizLawProf
Date Posted: 08/31/2013 at 2:49pm
Students of those type of coaches usually don't win. They may reach a fairly high level based on their coach's take-no-prisoners attitudes, but they oft plateau and never achieve greatness. Of course, in the movie, that coach's star didn't win, the kindly coach's pupil won the big tournament. I know it's just a movie, but it contains a truth: more often than not if kids learn that winning at all costs is the goal, they'll lose proper perspective, put undue pressure on themselves, and gag when the pressure's on. I've seen it happen to talented kids in other sports. Either that, or their sociopathic coach's attitude burns them out before they ever reach their primes. |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 08/31/2013 at 3:44pm
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36-24-36 ... ------------- Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 08/31/2013 at 4:05pm
| A good coach has good communication skills, they can explain not only WHAT but WHY? |