spin doubt

when will you generate more spin:

when your opponent hits topspin and you hit topspin too

or

when your opponent hit topspin and you chop it?

anyone who knows,please help!

tnx a lot andrew.

I'm a pips out penholder, so I try to continue spin when I can, adding to sidespin and looping or flipping underspin. I don't chop though.

-- Andrew

20 years, but only the last 8 very seriously.

--Andrew

Relooping will go faster, but the question was which will generate more spin, not which will generate more speed. Of course topspin to topspin will go faster, but topspin to underspin means the spin can build up.

-- Andrew

Sorry Andrew I agree with Jason this time.
When I analysed this 40 years ago i was fortunate to have a brother who is a physicist. No Doubt many of you are science whizzkids who got it right all on their own!
The following applies to normal rubber(inverted and sp)
Also please think of the items below as pure examples not match situations.
Some of you may not be comfortable being this scientific- Dont worry about it the natural approach is the easiest and most popular way to learn tt. However if you do follow this you may suddenly see how you can apply your spinning efforts more effectively - I know it was good for me.

destroyer spin wrote: when will you generate more spin:

====

when your opponent hits topspin and you hit topspin too.

yes in a topspin to topspin rally the last player to topspin has the opportunity to topspin more for the same effort as the other player
likewise in a chop to chop rally the last player has the opportunity to chop the ball with most spin. Try pushing heavy chop with yr practice partner. You will both have to go under the ball more and more as the spin increases.
=============

When your opponent hit topspin and you chop it?

no, when you chop against topspin, you will only increase the spin if you chop downwards faster than the topspinners racket moved upwards.
Likewise the topspinner will only increase the spin on the ball if his racket moves upward faster then the chop moved downward. This really helps me to play top against chop.- when the chopper chops one heavier I know why I must brush up a bit faster to go over the net.
If you apply 9 units of loop against 10 units of low chopped ball the ball goes in the net. 11 units of top means lift and more spin will be generated

anyone who knows,please help!

The key to understanding this is to realize that you must consider the relative speeds of bat and ball approaching each other. In chop to chop or top to top the speed of the brushing contact is increased by the spin. In top to chop or chop to top the speed of the brushing contact is reduced because the ball is revolving away from the approaching racket.
Now you can see why a high toss service helps you to generate topspin! (increased speed of falling ball approaching upward moving racket).
Now try this. Get partner to do tomahawk serve to yr bh.
Jab yr return back on the outside of the ball:- his spin will help you to send back a viscious sidespin block shot back.

Finally put yr racket on the table with normal rubber face up.
with another racket spin a ball such that it falls on the rubber from maybe six inches (Horizontal axis). The ball will kick forward,backward,forward backward, untill it loses momentum
btw
While its true that if opp chops three chops each heavier than the last and you loop them all back you are also looping heavier each time - otherwise you'd go in the net. But the chop is not helping you to put on spin- merely requiring that you spin heavily to return that chop!

"so,agooding2 it seems that i was right about the serve return."

Uh, no. You had the serve return backwards when describing returns of sidespin. Contacting on the left side of a counterclockwise spinning ball stops the spin and reverses it (just like pushing a backspin serve reverses the spin rather than adding to it) while contacting on the right side of the ball with a forward motion can continue the spin and give it back to the server.

What pingpongpaddy is describing is topspin to topspin, versus topspin to chop rallies, where speed and spin builds up. Not the same situation as a serve return. What I wonder is why the spin gets heavier and the topspinner has to compensate if the chopper isn't adding to the spin with their own chop motion?

-- Andrew

agooding2 wrote: What I wonder is why the spin gets heavier and the topspinner has to compensate if the chopper isn't adding to the spin with their own chop motion? -- Andrew

Sorry i wasnt clear enough.
lets assume that 10 units of chops can be returned by 10 units of loop, and 9 units of loop is in the net, 11 units is higher and more spin, 12 is too long

if the chopper gives it 9
and looper gives it 10
result is higher , more spin still good
but looper gives it 11 then too long

if chopper gives it 11 then looper should give 11 or 12
(10 would be in the net)

So what i am saying is that for the looper to add spin to the chopped ball he should be brushing the ball faster than the choppers stroke. This is why against the really heavy chop ball the slightly open racket roll topspin is effective because you are no longer competing bicep muscle v bicep muscle.

In the same way if i am chopping against you, and you always succeed in making me pop up with your loop, i can counteract this by brushing downward faster if I have the skill. (alternatively i could change the racket angle, but then that is outside this analysis of spin effect)

Folks
these two posts are not recommending looping and chopping stronger and stronger as a solution or tactic, its just observing what forces are at work.
Once you understand the principles the shot you may chooose non spin solutions in many case.

Ill just expand a bit on topspin to topspin as that is one of the more exciting shot to use.
Now because the first looper has put in 10 units of loop, the relooper only has to putin 3 units of effort to send back a 13 unit ... then the first guy puts in 3 and its up to sixteen etc. Notice how in those rallies the banana flight becomes more pronounced? What follows is that the relooper should put all his effort into quality of contact in order to get max spin.

Chops
Ever notice that when you do a really heavy chop serve to a strong player sometimes he can chisel it back with what seems a small wrist motion? Thats because your heavy chop serve has helped him to add backspin to the ball!

agooding2 wrote: "so,agooding2 it seems that i was right about the serve return." Uh, no. You had the serve return backwards when describing returns of sidespin. Contacting on the left side of a counterclockwise spinning ball stops the spin and reverses it (just like pushing a backspin serve reverses the spin rather than adding to it) while contacting on the right side of the ball with a forward motion can continue the spin and give it back to the server. What pingpongpaddy is describing is topspin to topspin, versus topspin to chop rallies, where speed and spin builds up. Not the same situation as a serve return. What I wonder is why the spin gets heavier and the topspinner has to compensate if the chopper isn't adding to the spin with their own chop motion? -- Andrew

I would say that the effect is the same whether topspin to topspin, backspin to backspin or sidespin to sidespin.
To get the idea of sidespin think of a righthander and a lefthander fh sidespin looping to each other. In that case the sidespin element of the loop will multiply more than if it were two right handers (where in respect of sidespin the spin reduces the speed of the sidespin stroke because the ball is not rotating toward the blade approaching it.

This is the test that will allow you to demonstrate the catapult effect of the rotating ball on the rubber.
In the test below the observer will see the rotation of the ball change direction with every bounce!

Finally put yr racket on the table with normal rubber face up.
with another racket spin a ball such that it falls on the rubber from maybe six inches (Horizontal axis). The ball will kick forward,backward,forward backward, untill it loses momentum
Now remember all motion is relative! In the above example the racket is stationary on the table and the ball is moving relative to the observer.
But relative to the ball the racket is moving!
Enough!

if the chopper gives it 9
and looper gives it 10
result is higher , more spin still good
but looper gives it 11 then too long

The looper can give it 11, he just has to close his blade more.  He can also give it 8 if he opens his face up enough.

cole_ely wrote: if the chopper gives it 9 and looper gives it 10 result is higher , more spin still good but looper gives it 11 then too long The looper can give it 11, he just has to close his blade more.� He can also give it 8 if he opens his face up enough.

I agree, but then in the open racket case we wouldnt be talking about the same thing.
I am not talking good/bad shots just simply whether top-top is easier increase spin against than top-chop.
Cole,
just put yr normmal inverted bat on the table, spin the ball with horizontal axis and observe where it kicks to. Then write down how it changes direction. After 3 4 bounces youll be convinced
Then imagine yr in umps chair watching two players chop push at each other. Thats one of the situations where it occurs
ANYWAY Happy NEW YEAR all

Interesting, but i would say that yes spin went back but it would have been the opposite spin:
HZW bat was motionless the ball was in motion. The spin from karlsons serve would have meant that the surface of the ball would either increase or decrease the overall speed of the brushing contact depending on whether it was
rotating toward hzw bat (increase)
rotating away hzw bat (decrease)
axis of spin contacts hzw bat (not much effect)

I read Letts stuff some time ago and was interested to do my bat on table test again and found that with 651,652,802, 802-40 the bounce skipping back and forth ws the same as for inverted.
I got the impression that he had observed well but not with the science of it to the forefront of his mind(and who can blame him, because its quite counter intuitive)
Andrew
in physics motion is relative:
it doesnt matter which moves ball or bat. Its how they move in relation to each other which defines the direction of brushing contact. Then the elasticity of the rubber having been dragged in one direction by the ball it is gripping rebounds thus spinning the ball. At relatively low amounts of spin and speed the effect of ball will be as I set out, because the traction limit of the rubber has not been reached. Certainly with spinny rubbers the traction is so great that it must be difficult to make the ball slip or skid on mark v or sriver for instance. This traction is why spin shots feel heavy: NEWTON said (to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction)the rubber is being
compressed (action) and rebounds (reaction)generating spin.

Since the bigger ball I do think there is a capacity for the ball to skid on sp (spinny incoming loop, light touch block with closed racket ) because I think I can hear the ball skid, and I can see the trajectory and bounce of the ball. I have discussed that in another thread.

agooding2 wrote: Yes, but what you're still missing is that if He Zhi Wen touched the ball on the side that the ball is rotating towards him, that would stop the spin and start it the other way. (case1) Only by touching lightly on the side that the ball is rotating away from him can he leave the spin on the ball or even increase the spin if he brushes the ball in the same direction that the ball is rotating in. (case2) Short pips makes this easier as the ball can skid on them, as you and I have both noticed on blocks. -- Andrew

Andrew i'm sorry it takes me a while to get my head round the clockwise terminology you used, but i think we are on the same wave-length

I agree that in case1 there is potential for him to get more spin in case1 than case2 because his brushing stroke lets say 5 units will be increased by the units caused by the sidespin rotation left on the ball after its bounced lets say 2 units.
If we apply case2 stroking with the effort on the side of the ball rotating away then the 2 units of rotation will work against him and should be subtracted from his 5 units. Of course he could move his racket faster to get abetter result.
A couple of things arise from this (using the existing ball rotation to generate spin)
one is that in case1 there is a chance to get stronger spin than the server will expect from the apparent effort of the receiver.
The other is that one can sometimes seem to be not generating spin at all when in fact the ball does the work for the receiver!

This is my last post of 2006
Happy NEW YEAR and good results to all

Andrew
Large ball sounds useful i'll look into it for what little coaching I do now.
what clued me up to the physics of spin was attending a tt training camp forty years ago at an indoor cricket(that english game) school which had a rubber floor. Every time a top spin hit the deck it bounced & rolled forward normally, but every chop bounced back, then forward, then back.. etc. I rang my brother and he said NEWTON and put the phone down!
The flarestorm is excellent. The most power of any pimple out rubber I have used and quite spinny too. The sponge is quite hard. However I may go back to Tyranno for my Bh its also high tension but softer and my bh is more of a control shot. As a shakehander I can have max on my fh and 1.5 on bh.
I first bought Flarestorm from a us web site for my fh, and i got the thickest which was 2.1. However i discovered that on the butterfly web site there was MAX (more than 2.2) I eventually got some Max from iruiru, but maybe you as a ph wont need max?
I must say i would like to see a high tension version of 802-40 as that was the rubber which had the best qualities for my fh. I got top sheets only from zeropong
and would cannibalize a japanese rubber for the faster sponge. But until that happens its flarestorm for me
I notice you are an sp ph . I play in a club dominated by chinese penholders, a couple of them sp. The big problem for them as ph is that they want to maximise power on fh but this means sacrificing control on Bh.
Before High Tension rubbers they were using chinese sp
651 or 802 but since bigger ball they are finding that they want even more power and chinese rubbers are only up to it at Max thickness, which is no good for control.
(They prefer 1.5 thickness so they can feel the wood)
Since High tension came out they have tried Tyranno and Raystorm and are much happier- good combi of touch on block and power on kill. The best of these guys is over 50 but would still be about 3000 uk rating. He's used the same racket for 30 years and is so fussy about the thickness of his rubber! I am quite lucky to have his input on matchplay - Play without fear is his favourite advice.
Well its 2007 now and I am going to get some sleep