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STIGA VTT - Li Sun's Clinics

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    Posted: 08/02/2018 at 11:35am
This thread is started in response to the thread on Harimoto's FH, for easier reference in the future since Google doesn't seem to index as many Mytt threads as it used to.

Check out the playlist for all related videos.

Without further ado, the video of interest:



And a related one to go with it:


Edited by zeio - 09/30/2019 at 11:05am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 12:10pm
Great stuff zeio, as ever.  Many thanks for your efforts.

I attended a training day run by Andrew Rushton a few weeks back and he spent a lot of time emphasizing this.  In the past, we were coached to use as much waist rotation as possible, and to move the right leg (for right handers) waaaay back on FH strokes to allow for maximum weight transfer.

These days, it's counter productive.  The ball comes back far more often and you need to be ready for that - big waist rotation and a perpendicular stance impacts too much on recovery times.  He advocated a more neutral stance at all times on both wings and minimal use of the waist.  

He spent a fair time on bat position in the neutral stance as well to help with fast, close-in counters.

It's hard to break out of habits built up over decades of play...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 12:21pm
Waist rotation works well if the elbow doesn't fly away to the outside because you don't have a lot of centrifugal force pushing you off balance. 

Watch Gatien.

Of course, this is just part of a coordinated stroke.  if you exaggerate anything it will mess you up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Waist rotation works well if the elbow doesn't fly away to the outside because you don't have a lot of centrifugal force pushing you off balance. 

Watch Gatien.

Of course, this is just part of a coordinated stroke.  if you exaggerate anything it will mess you up.

What constitutes "exaggeration" changes as the game itself changes.  What you might call exaggerated these days might be considered a killer FH back in the 1980s, and a sensible technique to choose and refine.  A massive FH with maximum weight transfer can still be highly coordinated and rock-solid for balance, but leave you locked in position with a difficult path to recovery (although you could call that uncoordinated, depending on what you're choosing for your definition of course).  Not a problem when the shot will 80% likely be a winner, or force the opponent to lob giving you more time.  These days - problem.  I wouldn't call that uncoordinated personally - just a sub-optimal technique decision now that massive FHs come back more often. 

If you were coached back in those days, you may have been told to move your primary leg back to allow for max weight transfer and waist rotation on the FH wing.  That's not what they're coaching now, due to the plastic ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 1:28pm
I would use less waist if the rally is too fast near the table but for powershots or opening loops i would still jse waist rotation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 1:53pm
One trick I picked up from Stellan some years ago was to use a lot of waste rotation for the backswing when trying to loop half-long balls.  It is definitely not the only way of doing it, but I found that it really helps me track the ball better when I do that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Waist rotation works well if the elbow doesn't fly away to the outside because you don't have a lot of centrifugal force pushing you off balance. 

Watch Gatien.

Of course, this is just part of a coordinated stroke.  if you exaggerate anything it will mess you up.



Wang tao would be amazing playing with his counter style.now coaches would be coaching younger kids to play this style since youngers player have a lighter body to accelerate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 8:11pm
Thx Zeio for posting and translating the vids, as well as creating a separate thread.

However, the coach's words do not seem to match the actions of the demo player he is praising.

Coach says...

"All you have to do is flex the hip with the body facing the ball."

"Waist rotation this substantial is a big no-no." [This instruction seems okay, since it implies small waist movement. However...]

"The waist should stay put."

"The waist should remain still."

But, when I watch the demo player, his waist is clearly moving with his hips and his waist is definitely not facing the table. Sure it is less rotation than rotating at a 90 degree angle. 

As stated in the other thread, what is perhaps meant is less waist/hip rotation, which is fine, but the coach's explanation is completely misleading to me, at least in English.

Maybe it's a translation/language issue.

When I look-up hip flexion, I get this definition:
"The word flexion actually means to decrease the angle between two bones at joint. "

So what the heck is meant by hip-flexion in the first place, in a table tennis forehand swing context???? 


Edited by Ieyasu - 08/02/2018 at 8:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 8:37pm
[Wang tao would be amazing playing with his counter style.now coaches would be coaching younger kids to play this style since youngers player have a lighter body to accelerate]

A number of times in the last few decades of international traveling for table tennis I've had the great privilege of watching closed-door matches among the Chinese Men's National Team.  I have many stories.  

In one session, I watched Wang Tao (the lefty, at-the-table, pips-out BH Wang Tao) play Liu Guoliang in Liu's international prime.  Wang put on an amazing display, slapping away every one of Liu's top serves, completely controlling the table and the contest, in a very big mismatch.  Such greatness! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 12:11am
"After the stamp, squeeze the 2 fingers and brush like hell"!!!  What fabulous advice! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 2:47am
I am a bit confused cause I don't exactly understand the meaning or the words "stamp" and "flexion" in this contest and generally most translations from chinese to english seem much too complicated or at least weird. Often seeing those in describing rubber properties on the back of a package
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote henningf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 4:19am
I’m struggeling to get exactly what he means, is it basicly(as a righthander): Don’t put your right foot too far back, and don’t swing too much? (Aka try to «push» more with the right foot?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 9:41am
Lots of hip replacements in 30 years time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:43am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Waist rotation works well if the elbow doesn't fly away to the outside because you don't have a lot of centrifugal force pushing you off balance. 

Watch Gatien.

Of course, this is just part of a coordinated stroke.  if you exaggerate anything it will mess you up.

What constitutes "exaggeration" changes as the game itself changes.  What you might call exaggerated these days might be considered a killer FH back in the 1980s, and a sensible technique to choose and refine.  A massive FH with maximum weight transfer can still be highly coordinated and rock-solid for balance, but leave you locked in position with a difficult path to recovery (although you could call that uncoordinated, depending on what you're choosing for your definition of course).  Not a problem when the shot will 80% likely be a winner, or force the opponent to lob giving you more time.  These days - problem.  I wouldn't call that uncoordinated personally - just a sub-optimal technique decision now that massive FHs come back more often. 

If you were coached back in those days, you may have been told to move your primary leg back to allow for max weight transfer and waist rotation on the FH wing.  That's not what they're coaching now, due to the plastic ball.


I think that philosophy predated plastic and came to dominate with 40 mm and maybe just before that (guys like KLH,, WLQ, Gatien, etc., even Waldner). 

About Wang Tao, he is another good example of a forehand that would work well today.  The guy had waist and lower back muscles of steel! 

The general point about ideas changing is a good one though.  I noticed that after looking at videos of Dragutin Surbek on the day I learned he had passed away.  Really nobody would coach any of what he did these days (except for fighting hard to the end).  But on the other hand, what Stellan Bengtsson did in that same era could still work now with some little modifications for new ball, especially the footwork stuff Andy mentioned.

In every era there have been different effective ways to play.  Players have different physical traits they have to deal with and in some cases compensate for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 12:12pm
I don't think the no waist concept is already a widely accepted idea in China. If it is then how come schools and clubs still use the waist and of course their super league and national teams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 12:20pm
It is basically playing more the women's style, longer,faster rallies closer to the table. That puts more pressure on timing and less on technique. If you want to see hip flexion used in place of waist rotation take a look at LSW's forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

I don't think the no waist concept is already a widely accepted idea in China. If it is then how come schools and clubs still use the waist and of course their super league and national teams
Yes! How come???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

It is basically playing more the women's style, longer,faster rallies closer to the table. That puts more pressure on timing and less on technique. If you want to see hip flexion used in place of waist rotation take a look at LSW's forehand.

Maybe a good compromise is to use more waist when you are further away where you will need more power and have more time to return to neutral stance?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

It is basically playing more the women's style, longer,faster rallies closer to the table. That puts more pressure on timing and less on technique. If you want to see hip flexion used in place of waist rotation take a look at LSW's forehand.

Maybe a good compromise is to use more waist when you are further away where you will need more power and have more time to return to neutral stance?

BRS: Care to explain what hip flexion is?

When I watch Liu Shiwen videos, I see exactly what tom has described. When she has time, the waist and hips are moving together and they are rotating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argothman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 2:15pm
Sit in a chair and turn your torso 90 degrees to look off to the side while keeping your legs, feet, and butt stationary: that is waist rotation.

Stand up, and turn your torso while keeping your shoulders in line with your hip bones, turn by putting your non-dominant leg down and inward, and let the legs and hip rotate your torso as one unit: that's hip flexion. You're not using your waist to move, you're using your legs and hip.

This is how I understand it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 3:28pm
 It is counter productive for many players to become obsessed with technique, i know it is a really good talking point to discuss what the very best at any given time a doing, but for most players, as long as technique is sound along with footwork, over emphasis on the fine tuning detracts from what can be achieved by focusing on other areas of the game. If you want to discuss how to get world class, have a look at a player such as Kreanga, and ask yourself how he did it with his own personal style. We are all different sizes, have different amounts of time to practice, different opportunities for practice, if you want to have the success that is realistic, allow your own style to develop, but use the wealth of information on forums such as this wisely. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZhouZhekai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 3:56pm
How does one use hip without slight waist moevent. Also who is Li Sung?

Edited by ZhouZhekai - 08/03/2018 at 3:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by ZhouZhekai ZhouZhekai wrote:

How does one use hip without slight waist moevent. Also who is Li Sung?
 it is all because the plastic ball has speeded the game up, using the waste rotation for power makes the stroke more of a commitment and this loses a player time in the quick tempo of the game to recover for the next stroke, in effect, the extra waist rotation puts the player behind in tempo, because the extra power that it used to give is meaningless.  it makes the mens game move closer the the women's game in tempo, and committing to a larger stroke to gain more power ( spin/pace) is now becoming counter productive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 6:15pm
moving waist for recovery is way faster than recover with your hand. What the dude's saying in the vid is just ways to speed up recovery. The amount of waist turning and wind-up depends on the time adjustment you got, if your opponent with speed then obviously you don't wind-up. That's the point of the video, not no waist rotation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 6:38pm
Thinking of ZJK and reading the thread I was wondering if the recovery start point is what creates the injury, when the waist stops rotating so brutally at the end of the swing and starts rotating back with much explosiveness. If that makes sense we can think of a «Fluider and less violent recovery ».
In an old Wang Liqin training vidéo I observed his elliptical fh recovery at warm-up time and some swing energy was recycled into the recovery so the paddle never went down to speed 0 at the end of the swing. I now naturally wonder wether or not a dance move would allow the same concept to apply and protect the player’s lower back/sacrum etc... For now I can only think of the "Feet-Across-A-Circle" looping style where we jumps from our 2 feet that start at 9am-3pm (12pm points at the opponent) on an imaginary circle, rotate right to 11am-4pm in the back swing, left to 8am-1pm in the swing, recover to 9am-3pm. It seems the force of the legs applies less pressure on the lower back and sacrum in that technique; one question: is it a technique that can still dominate? I don’t see why not.

Edited by fatt - 08/11/2018 at 4:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 7:47pm
Argothman, thanks for taking the time to explain hip-flexion as you understand it. And... if I understood it, that still does not explain how one can have hip-flexion without the waist moving as well. Sure, I agree with what you wrote, "... let the legs and hip rotate your torso as one unit: that's hip flexion. "

Totally agree, but again that is not what the coach says in the video. He said, "the waist should stay put," and "the waist should remain still." And yet he calls for hip-flexion. 

The demo player contradicts what the coach was saying.

Other posters have made correct observations, but none have reconciled this apparent contradiction. I'd hate to say it, but until I hear something to the contrary it sounds like this guy was talking out of his azz. (And yes, I realize he could beat me to a pulp, figuratively speaking, in a match.)

And, I get it... apparently the Chinese are now learning to use less rotation... fine, but this verbal explanation does not make sense in English.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Argothman, thanks for taking the time to explain hip-flexion as you understand it. And... if I understood it, that still does not explain how one can have hip-flexion without the waist moving as well. Sure, I agree with what you wrote, "... let the legs and hip rotate your torso as one unit: that's hip flexion. "

Totally agree, but again that is not what the coach says in the video. He said, "the waist should stay put," and "the waist should remain still." And yet he calls for hip-flexion. 

The demo player contradicts what the coach was saying.

Other posters have made correct observations, but none have reconciled this apparent contradiction.
No, the coach (and translation) are perfectly correct.

Perhaps another analogy might be useful.  If I want to look behind me, I can turn my head (head rotation).  Or we can imagine I'm wearing a neck brace which keeps my head perfectly still and turn my body (body rotation).  In the latter instance, you wouldn't say "you can't have body rotation without the head moving as well".  Of course the head "moves" - that's the whole point - but it's the body which is causing the movement. 

Apply the same thinking to hips and waist.  The hips turn but the waist "should stay put".  Argothman's explanation is perfectly clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 8:06pm
Tassie52, I get how the head can rotate separately from the body, and vice versa. Argothman's explanation is perfectly clear.

But again... look at the video... the demo player's waist is moving. How do you rotate the hips without the waist following? Show me a video, and I'll say thank you... Wink

Edited to add: Saying, "the waist should stay put," is different from saying the waist follows the hip.


Edited by Ieyasu - 08/03/2018 at 8:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Tassie52, I get how the head can rotate separately from the body, and vice versa. Argothman's explanation is perfectly clear.

But again... look at the video... the demo player's waist is moving. How do you rotate the hips without the waist following? Show me a video, and I'll say thank you... Wink

Edited to add: Saying, "the waist should stay put," is different from saying the waist follows the hip.
You're being overly pedantic.  The coach is actually saying, "The waist should stay put as it follows the hips."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:15pm
the demo players didn't look like they were brought in for that purpose. I think they were taking the seminar. that might be why they couldn't do exactly what the coach wanted them to
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