Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Tomahawk vs Sword serve
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

Tomahawk vs Sword serve

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
JohanFoludre View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 09/24/2019
Location: Yakima,WA
Status: Offline
Points: 10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohanFoludre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tomahawk vs Sword serve
    Posted: 09/25/2019 at 1:25am
I know they both side-spin counter-clockwise (right handed server) looking from the top down at thw table. 

1. But which one can be more spinny.
2. Which is more effective.

I see Ding Ning doing the Tomahawk with some success but many Japanese seem to prefer the sword because it is easier to switch from sword to reverse sword at the last moment of contact .

Lots of people use Tomahawk and does not seem very useful & it is hard to hide whether Tomahawk or reverse Tomahawk as well as sword & reverse sword

Back to Top
Fulanodetal View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/28/2013
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 2:06am
Never heard of this "sword" serve. Can you provide an example of it? Unless it is know by another name... 

FdT
Back to Top
JohanFoludre View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 09/24/2019
Location: Yakima,WA
Status: Offline
Points: 10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohanFoludre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 4:33am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

Never heard of this "sword" serve. Can you provide an example of it? Unless it is know by another name... 

FdT
 

No it is known as sword serve. It is called as such because many Japanese do it like as in Samurai sword.
I have seen Jun Mizutani do it and many Japanese girls. In fact there is a video in some US Open of a Japanese girl doing this in a very unusual fashion also with a high toss.

In a Tomahawk serve , the racket moves left to right (parallel to the net) for a righty & of course right to left if it is a reverse tomahawk. The rackethead is above the wrist for the tomahawk serve which is equivalent in side-spin direction to a reverse pendulum serve where the rackethead is below the wrist and moves like a pendulum. The ball rotates counter-clockwise in a plane parallel to ground and table viewed from above looking down.
Of course the pendulum serve is equivalent of reverse tomahawk.

But in a sword serve (& reverse sword serve) , the racket head (though also above the wrist) is moving in a direction pointing straight at the receiver but only the racket edge and not the racket face is moving straight towards the opponent. It is like a Samurai warrior moving a sword , if you know what I mean ( ergo the name sword serve).

But the big advantage of sword serve is that you can contact the ball with your forehand side (for sword serve)  or backhand side (for reverse sword serve).  So this doesn't give the opponent a lot of time to read the side spin direction.  A (righty) sword server stand right in the middle of the table and serve a sword serve towards forehand corner of (righty) receiver (same side-spin direction as tomahawk serve or reverse pendulum serve) or for  a reverse sword serve towards backhand corner of a righty receiver. (same side-spin direction as reverse tomahawk serve or pendulum serve) 
Back to Top
YoAss View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05/15/2017
Location: Tiel, NL
Status: Offline
Points: 96
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YoAss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 4:49am
Maybe there's a video of that sword serve somewhere?  I get what you're saying, but it wouldn't hurt to see an actual execution.
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Online
Points: 3199
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 4:52am
Isn't that just a hook serve?
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: TinArc 5
Back to Top
DarkerMyLove View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/23/2016
Location: taiwan
Status: Offline
Points: 105
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarkerMyLove Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 5:01am
Is it possible you just answered you own question about which is more effective?  (ie sword serve)

I have seen that sword serve with a few Japanese players but not too much.  Either because it is not taught / not easy to master OR it is not super deceptive (yes it being fast movement has a certain deception).  Or perhaps it is not easy to make 'variations' on the serves which would make it not so useful at higher levels or it is hard to keep the ball short.

The fact that a youtube search on Sword serve table tennis garners no "tutorials" or videos says something I guess.

To me the question about which is more 'spinny' is a question of one's own technique-->  How well you are contacting the ball (brushing) and how fast can you more your arm (or wrist) would be the determination.


Back to Top
reflecx View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/12/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 170
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reflecx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 7:11am
Are you referring to this serve as the "sword" serve?


Back to Top
WeebleWobble View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/07/2012
Status: Offline
Points: 448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 10:14am
Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

Are you referring to this serve as the "sword" serve?



No, he's referring to the serve Miu Hirano mostly uses.
Back to Top
hleett View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/13/2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 307
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hleett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 11:31am
The harakiri serve?AngryLOLWink


Back to Top
vik2000 View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/29/2018
Location: Behind you
Status: Offline
Points: 229
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 11:52am
This thread would've been a lot easier if OP simply provided a damn video showing what the hell a sword serve is. 
Back to Top
Fulanodetal View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/28/2013
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 1:17pm
Im thinking that it is the "Hook Serve", not , sword serve. Japan is not the world.

Here's a link of what I think OP is referring to. The guy on the video starts explaining the mechanics of it at around 10:00 so skip to that point....



FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 09/25/2019 at 1:18pm
Back to Top
Lightspin View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/11/2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 3:47pm
I am also somewhat mystified by the names but if I had to guess:

The sword serve is a tomahawk serve where the racket edge is perpendicular to the end of the table.  The racket also goes back to front along a line perpendicular to the end of the table straight towards the net.

I am probably wrong though...
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13531
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 7:32pm
Maybe Sword serve is a backhand serve like Dima?
Back to Top
Fulanodetal View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/28/2013
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Maybe Sword serve is a backhand serve like Dima?

Id say that the arm swing is like a tomahawk serve but the stance is more like a regular pendulum serve. Ive seen it being called "The Punch" serve as well.

FdT
Back to Top
Jackcerry View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/06/2018
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 89
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jackcerry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 8:59pm
I think it’s just the hook serve like this one in the last video I made, it’s a great serve because you can put underspin, topspin or sidespin just contacting the ball with the rubber in different positions but with the same movement

Back to Top
vik2000 View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/29/2018
Location: Behind you
Status: Offline
Points: 229
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2019 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Jackcerry Jackcerry wrote:

I think it’s just the hook serve like this one in the last video I made, it’s a great serve because you can put underspin, topspin or sidespin just contacting the ball with the rubber in different positions but with the same movement


The hook serve can be deceptive once you mastered it but these receivers are just newbies. Even the server hasn't really mastered the serve. I could tell what spin he was doing most of the time and he just couldn't keep his serve low and short in many cases.

You are better off learning from these guys in the video below. Unfortunately no translation for those who don't speak Japanese.


Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 619
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2019 at 11:23am
Hi,

Let's attempt a clarification.

Tomahawk:  All tomahawk service motions are forehand motions.  A synonym for the tomahawk service motion is hook.

Sword:  All sword service motions are backhand motions.

Most service motions do not have names.  Two accepted names are pendulum and reverse pendulum

Those motions which do not have names are described via noting a phrase that summarizes the service shot type itself.  To do so, usage is made of both the service motion attributes and the produced characteristics of the service.  An example is: backhand, left-sidespin-topspin serve.  Another example is: long, forehand nospin serve.

Thanks,
Advances in a field are best achieved by constructs that fully reflect the phenomena of interest and are rooted in a theory that specifies their determinants, mediating processes, and its effects.
Back to Top
hleett View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/13/2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 307
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hleett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2019 at 1:47pm
Tomahawk=戰斧式FH。Sword=拔劍式BH。

Edited by hleett - 09/27/2019 at 1:50pm
Back to Top
acpoulos View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/10/2007
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2019 at 3:01pm
Been doing this serve since mid 60s. We called it a twist serve (inspired by a twist serve in tennis).
Tony
Back to Top
Skyline View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 07/01/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 3781
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2019 at 4:48am
https://youtu.be/bmqdiSYau8Q

A former dutch top player made it his trademark
Back to Top
DannyKahn View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 09/28/2019
Location: Midland, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DannyKahn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2019 at 12:12am
Originally posted by acpoulos acpoulos wrote:

Been doing this serve since mid 60s. We called it a twist serve (inspired by a twist serve in tennis).

Maybe a misnomer because the twist serve in tennis (known as the American twist) only breaks from left to right of a righty sever  (towards the left the receiver)  and not the other way which is the slice serve.

Also the sword serve (from a righty server) will break towards the right of the receiver (like a slice in tennis) but a reverse sword wlll go the opposite way (towards the left of the receiver like a twist aerve in tennis) .      
Back to Top
Slowhand View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 11/08/2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 120
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2019 at 12:36am
Can someone perhaps link a video of a sword serve? Apparently it's not a tomahawk serve. Is it another name for a hook/punch/jab serve? Don't think I've noticed a pro player using the backhand side of the blade to hit a reverse hook serve but I'm sure it's doable. Is that a sword serve? What the hell is a sword serve?
Back to Top
liXiao View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/27/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6055
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote liXiao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2019 at 11:56am
OP is talking about the "Prince Serve" or 王子サーブ, famously used by Haruna Fukuoka. This was developed by Rokuro Sakuma at his academy. His students include Ai Fukuhara, Haruna Fukuoka, Keiko Okazaki, and Akiko Takeda. All of them sans Fukuhara were OX Long pips block and smash type players, and he is the one behind Nittaku's Goriki line of blades and rubbers. 

Here is Okazaki against Tian Jing Zorner: 



and here is Sakuma explaining the serve in a training video he did with Fukuoka:




Edited by liXiao - 09/29/2019 at 11:58am
DHS PF4 08
TSP Triple Power
TSP Curl P3α-R OX
Back to Top
Fulanodetal View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/28/2013
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2019 at 3:54pm
Don't we know this as "The Reverse Tomahawk" serve? Isn't this Ding Nings signature serve? I remember seeing a young Kenta Matzudaira doing it many times as well

FdT
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13531
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2019 at 12:37am
I remember her!  That is a really strange serve for sure.  Doesn't seem real sword like.
Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 619
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2019 at 8:15am
Hi,

With exceeding happiness it may now be confidently expressed that the table tennis world, in its ever-evolving nomenclature developmental process, has finalized the selection of the final term for this serve, namely "sword" or "harakiri" or "reverse tomahawk" or "punch" or "twist" or "American twist" or "Prince".  

It is in these moments of emerging, crystal clear clarity that boldly we go.

Thanks,  


Edited by DonnOlsen - 09/30/2019 at 8:16am
Advances in a field are best achieved by constructs that fully reflect the phenomena of interest and are rooted in a theory that specifies their determinants, mediating processes, and its effects.
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Pongville, WA
Status: Online
Points: 16504
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2019 at 10:26am

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

With exceeding happiness it may now be confidently expressed that the table tennis world, in its ever-evolving nomenclature developmental process, has finalized the selection of the final term for this serve, namely "sword" or "harakiri" or "reverse tomahawk" or "punch" or "twist" or "American twist" or "Prince".  

It is in these moments of emerging, crystal clear clarity that boldly we go.

Thanks,  
LOL You have such a civilized way to express frustration.

In my imaginary vacation in Switzerland where I moved no less fictitious money between all those pretend accounts, I stopped by the local fanciful club where they call that serve the « knife ».

Back to Top
acpoulos View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/10/2007
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2019 at 12:54pm
Wenger or Victorinox?
Tony
Back to Top
kenneyy88 View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/06/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2019 at 8:45pm
So its a Wind Shield Wiper serve. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_DQiqF9vlo
Back to Top
Fulanodetal View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/28/2013
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2019 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

So its a Wind Shield Wiper serve. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_DQiqF9vlo

Nope. The japanese girl in the video provided is making contact with the back of her hand, not the front. Similar motion though, I had the same reaction until I saw which side of the racket she was making contact with. IT is definitely a "Reverse Tomahawk". End of story.



FdT
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.