Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - How USATT can help clubs?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

How USATT can help clubs?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>
Author
roundrobin View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/02/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4719
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:


USATT doesn't take a lot of money from clubs. The annual affiliation fee is around $50?


$75 (I thought you were on the club advisory committee...).

One obvious answer for the future is the support and development of interclub league play (building up from local and regional level). Larry Hodges has been advocating this idea tirelessly, and so far USATT has failed miserably.


We do have the BATTF and LATTF leagues already (and I was part of the LATTF development), so perhaps you should know the facts first.  As for the other areas except NY and TX, how are you going to develop interclub leagues when many clubs are hundreds of miles away?  Leagues are not the answer to table tennis development in the U.S... This is a tired suggestion for table tennis that can't possibly work in the U.S.  Those who keep preaching it have not actually done anything to make it happen themselves.  Yesterday we had a German visitor at LATTA, a very good 3rd league player over there.  He told me they have many clubs in his city that makes the league possible.  How are you doing to support leagues when even with all the clubs we have in L.A., players must drive up to 75 minutes each way (forget about public transportation, they don't exist) on week nights to play interclub league matches?  The gas alone is over $15 for many league players each time.




Edited by roundrobin - 05/05/2013 at 2:04pm
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red

Back to Top
amateur View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/29/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:



We do have the BATTF and LATTF leagues already (and I was part of the LATTF development), so perhaps you should know the facts first.  As for the other areas except NY and TX, how are you going to develop interclub leagues when many clubs are hundreds of miles away?  Leagues are not the answer to table tennis development in the U.S... Those who keep preaching it have not actually done anything to make it happen themselves.



I know about the California leagues, but are they part of a USATT network or independent ventures? Does a club need to be USATT-affiliated to play in the league? That's the kind of organizational cooperation that would be a positive development and would create an incentive to affiliate with USATT.

There are many more areas where leagues could be developed. It wouldn't have to be weekly play, maybe just a few weekends per year - look at NCTTA, it works there throughout the country.
Back to Top
roundrobin View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/02/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4719
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

I know about the California leagues, but are they part of a USATT network or independent ventures? Does a club need to be USATT-affiliated to play in the league? That's the kind of organizational cooperation that would be a positive development and would create an incentive to affiliate with USATT.


Certainly.  All clubs participating in BATTF and LATTF are USATT affiliated, and the leagues are part of the USATT network.  National top-division finals have been held at the U.S. Nationals each year.
The main reason U.S. leagues can not be as popular as European leagues is the lack of infrastructure (clubs).  It's very expensive and time consuming to play in U.S. leagues.  For example, LATTF league participants tend to be either very well-off financially, or college students who have lots of free time and do not have to work for a living.  Promoting leagues in the U.S. is to put the cart in front of the horse.


Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red

Back to Top
amateur View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/29/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

I know about the California leagues, but are they part of a USATT network or independent ventures? Does a club need to be USATT-affiliated to play in the league? That's the kind of organizational cooperation that would be a positive development and would create an incentive to affiliate with USATT.


Certainly.  All clubs participating in BATTF and LATTF are USATT affiliated, and the leagues are part of the USATT network.  

If that's the case (and indeed a requirement), then one can add "participation in interclub league play" as an additional benefit of USATT affiliation for clubs. I think that's pretty significant, provided further leagues are created around the country.
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16241
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 2:42pm
inter clubs leagues could work only with the active sponsorship of an airline company that has tremendous discounts in hotels chains. 
I can imagine players flying friday nights to play on saturdays and go back home saturday nights; one season lasts 4 months. I can be quickly expensive: double rr (one club match at home, one visiting) with -say- 10 clubs of 6 players each giving 15 single encounters per club match over one day; 18 club matches per club over the season x 10 = 180 club matches: 90 times, 7 single hotel rooms (the coach!) and 7 plane tickets have to be paid...unless of course some of the clubs are under 3 hours driving distance from each other.
Live streaming of matches with the help of a service like http://gigaom.com/2013/03/12/bittorrent-live-open-beta/ (there are many inexpensive solutions) would be necessary to measure the success of the endeavor.
It sounds like a hazardous bet; however the selection of best points with the visible signs of the sponsoring company could be good material for its advertising campaigns assuming making sense analogies support the campaign ( something like air planes going back and forth really fast from place to place all around the country); I bet that company would discover its bet reveals itself a fantastic investment decision overtime.
that's a lot of bets Confused.
Back to Top
LUCKYLOOP View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/27/2013
Location: Pongville USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 3:11pm
LEAGUES/CLUB competition could start out small:

Have a triangular or quad club team meet 1-4 times a year: For example, a Dallas club could host Austin, Little Rock, Oklahoma City with all club members getting guaranteed so many matches. The host team could be responsible for club facilities and trophies/plaques if given, since they don't have the expense of travel. This could be more fun than a tournament and less expensive. The host team would change for every meet. Ratings for matches don't have to be exchanged.

There could be various formats: a RR singles for various events like 2400, 2200, 2000, 1800, 1600, 1400. Each club would be allowed the exact same number of entries for each event or in total. Each event gives points for 1st, 2nd, 3rd place toward an overall club winner for highest points accumulation.

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 05/05/2013 at 3:13pm
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
Back to Top
amateur View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/29/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 3:12pm
@fatt: You're talking about a nationwide league with just the best clubs, that's the wrong approach. League play needs to be local or regional (depending on density of clubs), and for fun not for money. Then maybe throw in a national final for the best teams, but that's not the main priority.

@roundrobin: Leagues and clubs are like chicken and eggs, not carts and horses ;-)


Edited by amateur - 05/05/2013 at 3:13pm
Back to Top
ZApenholder View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/04/2012
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 4512
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 3:44pm
In South Africa:

We have "provincial (city)" association that host leagues - senior and junior leagues - this is all driveable by distance and no hotel is required etc.

We also will have a "provincial open (non team event)" and taking into the account of the league players results/log, a provincial team is chosen to compete in the national teams event, where at a same tournament is our national opens and national colours get awarded.

The league that we have here is a bit long (April to Aug), but from my understanding of many countries table tennis structure - Western Province (Cape Town, South Africa), has one of the best leagues (non pro) in the world.

10 teams in a division, with premier, 1st, 2nd, to 5th divisions (before they had 6th, 7th too)
there is also junior league with about 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th.
A junoir can play in both league.
senior league is on weeknights, while junior league is on a saturday.

senior/normal league division with 10 teams plays one home and one away, and matches are once a week, so that is 9+9 = 18 weeks of table tennis, with a 2 week break inbetween, as well as break week for the provincial open.

The home team needs to prepare snacks and cool drink.
fines are imposes for walk over, paid to the league office
league office manage the league, logs, schedule as well as valid reschedule.

junior league, i'm not so familar with, but they play once a month (or twice), at a neutral venue and 2 team matches are played on that day.

USA is very big, and the population is spread across a lot of cities, so i'm not sure if this same concept will work. As in South Africa, majority of our people is base in the main cities (include outskirt of the city that is driveable)
So a City league to choose state team, state team compete with other state in a annual team tournament.
President & Head Coach
Tony's Table Tennis
(Shop, Academy, Agency)
Yasaka Sponsored Coach
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2464
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

@fatt: You're talking about a nationwide league with just the best clubs, that's the wrong approach. League play needs to be local or regional (depending on density of clubs), and for fun not for money. Then maybe throw in a national final for the best teams, but that's not the main priority.

@roundrobin: Leagues and clubs are like chicken and eggs, not carts and horses ;-)

I think for league play to be successful in this country, you are right, it needs to be for all levels with an emphasis on fun.  Think of it like bowling leagues or tennis leagues.
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2464
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

In South Africa:

We have "provincial (city)" association that host leagues - senior and junior leagues - this is all driveable by distance and no hotel is required etc.

We also will have a "provincial open (non team event)" and taking into the account of the league players results/log, a provincial team is chosen to compete in the national teams event, where at a same tournament is our national opens and national colours get awarded.

The league that we have here is a bit long (April to Aug), but from my understanding of many countries table tennis structure - Western Province (Cape Town, South Africa), has one of the best leagues (non pro) in the world.

10 teams in a division, with premier, 1st, 2nd, to 5th divisions (before they had 6th, 7th too)
there is also junior league with about 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th.
A junoir can play in both league.
senior league is on weeknights, while junior league is on a saturday.

senior/normal league division with 10 teams plays one home and one away, and matches are once a week, so that is 9+9 = 18 weeks of table tennis, with a 2 week break inbetween, as well as break week for the provincial open.

The home team needs to prepare snacks and cool drink.
fines are imposes for walk over, paid to the league office
league office manage the league, logs, schedule as well as valid reschedule.

junior league, i'm not so familar with, but they play once a month (or twice), at a neutral venue and 2 team matches are played on that day.

USA is very big, and the population is spread across a lot of cities, so i'm not sure if this same concept will work. As in South Africa, majority of our people is base in the main cities (include outskirt of the city that is driveable)
So a City league to choose state team, state team compete with other state in a annual team tournament.

Thank you for sharing this.  I assume that they use "Divisions" rather than ratings? How does that work? How does the level go up/down as players win?

Leagues in America can be made to work, but they need to draw in the less serious ("recreational") players and that requires a change in attitude in how they are set up.
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16241
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

@fatt: You're talking about a nationwide league with just the best clubs, that's the wrong approach. League play needs to be local or regional (depending on density of clubs), and for fun not for money. Then maybe throw in a national final for the best teams, but that's not the main priority.
...
it's one of the approaches; if it leverages interest and motivation then the approach could prove pulling up everybody else, encouraging regional and local leagues; when I see how we get excited watching the pro tour events live via ittv I can't help thinking such a 'best usa club league' with live streaming would be successful; it would be a consequence of the ittv broadcast of pro tour and main world events, encouraging the idea of a cascading benefit going down the totem pole.

Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2464
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

@fatt: You're talking about a nationwide league with just the best clubs, that's the wrong approach. League play needs to be local or regional (depending on density of clubs), and for fun not for money. Then maybe throw in a national final for the best teams, but that's not the main priority.
...
it's one of the approaches; if it leverages interest and motivation then the approach could prove pulling up everybody else, encouraging regional and local leagues; when I see how we get excited watching the pro tour events live via ittv I can't help thinking such a 'best usa club league' with live streaming would be successful; it would be a consequence of the ittv broadcast of pro tour and main world events, encouraging the idea of a cascading benefit going down the totem pole.



I don't think such a league could generate enough interest.  It's not enough to have something that interests people who are already prone to watch ITTV, as we are already serious players. We need something that will attract all the casual players. I think we need to start by getting them involved and then they can learn to appreciate high level play.
Back to Top
clannewton View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/03/2008
Location: Melbourne,FL US
Status: Offline
Points: 299
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clannewton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 4:57pm
I agree with the empasis on local leagues. If you read thru this thread, you can already see many people complaining about the cost of club memberships, club rates, usatt memberships, rating fees, affiliation fees etc..., I believe airline costs to travel for league play would dwarf any of these other fees. So for the fisacally conservative players in our community(whose numbers are probably greater than we think), this talk of expensive travel cost is a non-starter.
Back to Top
ZApenholder View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/04/2012
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 4512
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:


Thank you for sharing this.  I assume that they use "Divisions" rather than ratings? How does that work? How does the level go up/down as players win?

Leagues in America can be made to work, but they need to draw in the less serious ("recreational") players and that requires a change in attitude in how they are set up.


You are more than welcome Smile
Division yes, or as they call it here, 1st league, 2nd league etc.
I do believe rating also has they advantages, and I did recommend them to sign up for rating central - but that is something else.

After the end of the season, 2 team will promote up to the next division, while 2 teams will demote down.

The club which enters this teams will register to fill in the players in the allocated teams that they have registered in a league/division.
A player is allowed to sub upwards, but not down. and After 3 subs, you need to stay in that division.
So ie, if a junior improves a lot in April and May, and was entered in the 4th league, then he can sub up to a 2nd league team (if the club has a team in there) and continue for the rest of the season.

So club determins where the players play.

Our lower leagues generally have what you call recreational players. whereby from 3rd league upwards, things tend to get a bit more serious Wink
President & Head Coach
Tony's Table Tennis
(Shop, Academy, Agency)
Yasaka Sponsored Coach
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16241
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

@fatt: You're talking about a nationwide league with just the best clubs, that's the wrong approach. League play needs to be local or regional (depending on density of clubs), and for fun not for money. Then maybe throw in a national final for the best teams, but that's not the main priority.
...
it's one of the approaches; if it leverages interest and motivation then the approach could prove pulling up everybody else, encouraging regional and local leagues; when I see how we get excited watching the pro tour events live via ittv I can't help thinking such a 'best usa club league' with live streaming would be successful; it would be a consequence of the ittv broadcast of pro tour and main world events, encouraging the idea of a cascading benefit going down the totem pole.



I don't think such a league could generate enough interest.  It's not enough to have something that interests people who are already prone to watch ITTV, as we are already serious players. We need something that will attract all the casual players. I think we need to start by getting them involved and then they can learn to appreciate high level play.
one could try to think the other way around: broadcasting US players competing at the highest level in the country may induce interest in the US pool of casual players; a simple proof is all those people coming to the club for the 1st time after watching a "best points" youtube video: they are mesmerized by the speed and spin and want to do the same; they look up a club in their area and get started for good.
Back to Top
BH-Man View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2013 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

LEAGUES/CLUB competition could start out small:

Have a triangular or quad club team meet 1-4 times a year: For example, a Dallas club could host Austin, Little Rock, Oklahoma City with all club members getting guaranteed so many matches. The host team could be responsible for club facilities and trophies/plaques if given, since they don't have the expense of travel. This could be more fun than a tournament and less expensive. The host team would change for every meet. Ratings for matches don't have to be exchanged.

There could be various formats: a RR singles for various events like 2400, 2200, 2000, 1800, 1600, 1400. Each club would be allowed the exact same number of entries for each event or in total. Each event gives points for 1st, 2nd, 3rd place toward an overall club winner for highest points accumulation.
 
Dude, I used to LIVE in that Bermuda TT Triangle of Non-Existant TT Club Death.
 
OKC is 3 hours from Dallas, Dallas is 3+ Hrs from Austin.
 
Round trip by an average car is $70 in fuel alone.
 
Who the ^*&#@ is going to do that once a week for leagues.
 
Scotty, can you beam me up?
 
Our USA problem is there are not a lot of people interested in playing Table Tennis at a club level, even in a USA city of 100,00 which should be large enough to support half a dozen clubs, you could be hard pressed to find even ONE USATT member. e.g. LAWTON, USA.
 
Our problem is further screwed up by how we in USA built our sities so spread out and next to zero effective public transportation.
 
If we get enough players interested, we can have a lot of clubs and do a lot of the things many of us suggested, but I am at a total loss at how to get the masses wanting to play TT in a club.
 
Austin TTC knows more a litle bit about this, (how to attract and retain new players) but they are not even a drop in the USA TT bucket.
 
Throw a dart at a USA randomly 100 times and see if a TT center is located within a 15 inute bike ride. Call me to claim your prize when you hit the jackpot. :)
 
RR from LA knows this and explained it already. Until we find a way to really interest a LOT of new players, we are screwed, even if USA Govt makes a new law that there will be 2 new TT centers built in every USA city with a population of over 25,000, even then, who the heck is automatically going to come?
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc
Back to Top
BH-Man View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 12:11am
Population density and ease or cost of moving within city is also a huge fator.
an exception might be where there are simply a boatload of players in a neighborhood willing to come out, like for example to the neighborhood Basketball Court. That happens even in a spread pout neighborhood.
 
If there are only 2000-4000 people in a square mile (average USA suburb with 1 acre lots or 1/2 acre lots) You got maybe 10,000 to 20,000 in 5 square miles. If one does not have a car or city traffic is a mess, one must have a bike or public transportation. No one is gpoing to walk 5-10 miles to a club if there is one in their city. You try walking there and police ask you if you are the high plains drifter or you run into baddies.
 
That situation, with a club within 5-15 miles of where one lives is very rare. Even if a club exists that close, it can cost a lot just to get there.
 
If population density is way higher, it makes everything much easier.
 
If cities built themselves with a LOT of high rise Apartments, you can fit a LOT more people on a square mile. One can fit 160 people in one of those high rise 20 floor bulidings and 240 of them in a square mile to come up with around 38,000 people in that same square mile and over 150,000 in 5 square miles. That is some serious numbers and that makes it real easy to have a lot of population to draw from to make a local club that is close enough to walk to.
 
heck, my club is a 5 minute walk around a quarter mile away.
 
That kind of population density helps a lot. So does public transportation. I can get on a bus for ONE DOLLAR ride for 10 minutes and be at another club 3 miles away. Bus another 15 minutes and be at the club on the far south side of the city.
 
Root problem though is enough players interested in coming out to a club and the immediate presence of a club.
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc
Back to Top
tt4me View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/17/2013
Location: RC Poverty Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 1:07am
Quote
Our problem is further screwed up by how we in USA built our sities so spread out and next to zero effective public transportation.
Very true.  The idiots that run the public transportation should do time in Germany so they can see it done right.

Quote
Throw a dart at a USA randomly 100 times and see if a TT center is located within a 15 inute bike ride. Call me to claim your prize when you hit the jackpot. :)
I agree but I have my own 'club' because it is inconvenient to go to the city club 25 miles away.  Traffic is very bad during rush time after work and when the weather is bad it is even worse.

Quote
RR from LA knows this and explained it already. Until we find a way to really interest a LOT of new players, we are screwed, even if USA Govt makes a new law that there will be 2 new TT centers built in every USA city with a population of over 25,000, even then, who the heck is automatically going to come?
Bad idea.  The gov should stay out of this.  Get this, the gov takes more than it gives.  This is irrefutable.  

Quote
Population density and ease or cost of moving within city is also a huge fator.
an exception might be where there are simply a boatload of players in a neighborhood willing to come out, like for example to the neighborhood Basketball Court. That happens even in a spread pout neighborhood.
 
If there are only 2000-4000 people in a square mile (average USA suburb with 1 acre lots or 1/2 acre lots) You got maybe 10,000 to 20,000 in 5 square miles. If one does not have a car or city traffic is a mess, one must have a bike or public transportation. No one is gpoing to walk 5-10 miles to a club if there is one in their city. You try walking there and police ask you if you are the high plains drifter or you run into baddies.
Running into baddies and other low life scum comes with high density populations.  I would move away.

Quote
That situation, with a club within 5-15 miles of where one lives is very rare. Even if a club exists that close, it can cost a lot just to get there.
Yes, more than the cost of the nightly fee.

Quote
If population density is way higher, it makes everything much easier.
Yes but I wouldn't want to live there.  I have liked where I am living now but two apartment complexes are being build on either side of me.  It is time to move.

Quote
Root problem though is enough players interested in coming out to a club and the immediate presence of a club.
Baal mentioned he is 40-45 minutes away from the HTTC.   I know I wouldn't travel that long or far just to play TT. I would never have got started.  Actually, I have drastically stopped visiting the club the last two years.  I have my own solution/club. We don't need no USTTA or ITTF.   I wonder how many there are like me that are 'off the grid' so to speak.

Back to Top
LUCKYLOOP View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/27/2013
Location: Pongville USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 5:47am
<<<<<<<     ORIGINALLY By BH-Man
Who the ^*&#@ is going to do that once a week for leagues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My suggestion was for 1-4 times per year to have a meet with 4 clubs at different locations. That is only once every 3 months if done 4 times a year. A person could use it as weekend getaway and enjoy the town too.
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
Back to Top
clannewton View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/03/2008
Location: Melbourne,FL US
Status: Offline
Points: 299
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clannewton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 9:05am
I think we have gotten way off topic. Remember the question was, what can the usatt do to help clubs. I think the parameters that are established are: it can't be financial help, it also can't be expertise help, it can't be manpower help, it can't be organizational help. But if you do have an idea that has a proven track record, it might have a chance of being considered. Of course these ideas must come from you as is it seems there is an idea void in the usatt. Remember, interating everything that is wrong with our system without a possible solution won't appear to be helpful and this thread just becomes a bitching rant. I think they are looking for some feasable solutions, with empasis on the word feasable!
Back to Top
clannewton View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/03/2008
Location: Melbourne,FL US
Status: Offline
Points: 299
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clannewton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 10:49am
Here is a proposal that the usatt could help with.  I have written on another thread about the club in orlando's marriage with a badminton club.  The badminton club is a franchise that is in several cities.  The name of the this badminton franchise is Clearone Badminton.  They have established some awesome venues for their badminton clubs.  I think that they have run into some of the same problems that our table tennis clubs experience.  If they are not in a market/city with a saturated amount of badminton players, it becomes very expensive to maintain the building/venue with all the associated costs.  The Clearone Badminton club in Orlando realized this and when the local table tennis club approached them with the proposal to join together, the badminton club agreed as the mutual benefits became apparent.
This paragraph break is dedicated to benfb.  Anyway some of these advantages are that both clubs have peak days(when most of their player show up) and if it is not a peak day the remaining days have just a smattering of players showing up which does not make it cost effective to even open the facilities.  By alternating days, both clubs are able to max out their members show up times and keeps the facilities/venue more populated.  As both sports require a lot of the same playing conditions there is very little adjustment for one sport to take the venue and then turning it over for the other sport to use.
So I have said all that to propose this.  Could the usatt approach the corporate heads of Clearone Badminton and/or any other sport that has similar venues with like playing conditions and try and negotiate a similar understanding like they did in Orlando.  I am sure that many Clearone Badminton's other facilities/venues probably experience some of the same problems I listed above and it would seem they could convince them that a marriage of the two sports in their facilities would be mutually beneficial.  Just the act of making contact and raising the idea to the Clearone folks would not seem to incur a lot of expense and if situation became promising, the usatt could help find interested table tennis club coordinators to marry up with the the Badminton people.  
I believe this meets the criteria that benfb outlined, that should make the usatt consider this.  It is low cost to the usatt, there is already a working model in orlando and this would help expand the amount of clubs and greatly improve the conditions that some of the clubs are playing in.  It would also be a good way of attracting potential players from the badminton sector as they already have an interest in racket sports.  Also the potential to do so many other nice things in nice venues like the ones the Clearone Badminton has, seems limitless.  If this could prove successful, even expansion to other market/cities could be possible together and would be good for both sports.
I have to admire what Clearone has done for Badminton in North America, I wish there was a company/firm willing to do the same for table tennis.  The only other national table tennis organization seems to be the NATT and they seem to skim whatever money is left from tournaments that the usatt doesn't take.  And they seem to perpetuate the whole tournament system that does not seem the best for our sport and hinders any of the club leagues systems from evolving.  Lest I digress, is this something the usatt can involve itself with or will it be another verbal "great idea, handle it"
 
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16241
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 11:03am
lol @ paragraph break dedication :)
Back to Top
BH-Man View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 11:56am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

<<<<<<<     ORIGINALLY By BH-Man
Who the ^*&#@ is going to do that once a week for leagues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My suggestion was for 1-4 times per year to have a meet with 4 clubs at different locations. That is only once every 3 months if done 4 times a year. A person could use it as weekend getaway and enjoy the town too.
 
I perceive only really motivated folk like you and I and a few others would be willing to endure the time and expense.
 
When I get back to USA in a likely TT baren area, I would likely be double motivated to do as you suggest.
 
I am with you in taking a break from the routine as my first ever USATT tourney I disguised it as a family travel to the Rocky Mountains for a vacation while on vacation from Iraq.
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc
Back to Top
BH-Man View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 11:59am
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Quote
Our problem is further screwed up by how we in USA built our sities so spread out and next to zero effective public transportation.
Very true.  The idiots that run the public transportation should do time in Germany so they can see it done right.

Quote
Throw a dart at a USA randomly 100 times and see if a TT center is located within a 15 inute bike ride. Call me to claim your prize when you hit the jackpot. :)
I agree but I have my own 'club' because it is inconvenient to go to the city club 25 miles away.  Traffic is very bad during rush time after work and when the weather is bad it is even worse.

Quote
RR from LA knows this and explained it already. Until we find a way to really interest a LOT of new players, we are screwed, even if USA Govt makes a new law that there will be 2 new TT centers built in every USA city with a population of over 25,000, even then, who the heck is automatically going to come?
Bad idea.  The gov should stay out of this.  Get this, the gov takes more than it gives.  This is irrefutable.  

Quote
Population density and ease or cost of moving within city is also a huge fator.
an exception might be where there are simply a boatload of players in a neighborhood willing to come out, like for example to the neighborhood Basketball Court. That happens even in a spread pout neighborhood.
 
If there are only 2000-4000 people in a square mile (average USA suburb with 1 acre lots or 1/2 acre lots) You got maybe 10,000 to 20,000 in 5 square miles. If one does not have a car or city traffic is a mess, one must have a bike or public transportation. No one is gpoing to walk 5-10 miles to a club if there is one in their city. You try walking there and police ask you if you are the high plains drifter or you run into baddies.
Running into baddies and other low life scum comes with high density populations.  I would move away.

Quote
That situation, with a club within 5-15 miles of where one lives is very rare. Even if a club exists that close, it can cost a lot just to get there.
Yes, more than the cost of the nightly fee.

Quote
If population density is way higher, it makes everything much easier.
Yes but I wouldn't want to live there.  I have liked where I am living now but two apartment complexes are being build on either side of me.  It is time to move.

Quote
Root problem though is enough players interested in coming out to a club and the immediate presence of a club.
Baal mentioned he is 40-45 minutes away from the HTTC.   I know I wouldn't travel that long or far just to play TT. I would never have got started.  Actually, I have drastically stopped visiting the club the last two years.  I have my own solution/club. We don't need no USTTA or ITTF.   I wonder how many there are like me that are 'off the grid' so to speak.

 
Dude, I like your attitude. U tell it like you see it, whether with me or others or not. You are your own man and nobody will stop you.
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 844
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:


USATT doesn't take a lot of money from clubs. The annual affiliation fee is around $50?


$75 (I thought you were on the club advisory committee...).

One obvious answer for the future is the support and development of interclub league play (building up from local and regional level). Larry Hodges has been advocating this idea tirelessly, and so far USATT has failed miserably.


We do have the BATTF and LATTF leagues already (and I was part of the LATTF development), so perhaps you should know the facts first.  As for the other areas except NY and TX, how are you going to develop interclub leagues when many clubs are hundreds of miles away?  Leagues are not the answer to table tennis development in the U.S... This is a tired suggestion for table tennis that can't possibly work in the U.S. [SNIP]
The goal of a nationwide network of local leagues isn't to set up leagues for currently existing clubs. The purpose is to use the leagues spur the creation of new clubs and players. This is how it was done in places all over the world, including Europe. Germany didn't start with 11,000 clubs and 700,000 and then decide to set up leagues; the leagues are what spurred the development of these 11,000 clubs and 700,000 players. The whole point is to set up local leagues, so nobody needs to drive hundreds of miles.
 
I remember when we opened the Maryland Table Tennis Center many years ago. Over and over we were told there weren't enough players to support a full-time table tennis center devoted to coaching, that there was no way players would pay enough hours  for coaching to make it pay for itself. They missed the point - we weren't going after current players, we were going after NEW players. Now we have seven full-time coaches and over 300 hours of private coaching per week (plus group sessions), and full-time clubs with full-time coaches are popping up all over the country (about 60 of them now, compared to about 10 just seven years ago). Similarly, the purpose of a nationwide network of local leagues would be to bring in new players and new clubs, not for existing ones.
 
It will not an easy task, and it probably does need to start in populated regions. If there are local organizers, as tennis does in the U.S. and other countries do in table tennis, than any city can develop table tennis leagues, and from the players signing up for those leagues more clubs can pop up, just as they do overseas. Tennis has such local leagues all over the U.S. and huge numbers of players, and they started out just where we are now. There's no reason why table tennis can't do the same; in Europe, nearly every country sports associations have more table tennis members than tennis members.
 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 05/06/2013 at 6:02pm
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
roundrobin View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/02/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4719
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

The goal of a nationwide network of local leagues isn't to set up leagues for currently existing clubs. The purpose is to use the leagues spur the creation of new clubs and players. This is how it was done in places all over the world, including Europe. Germany didn't start with 11,000 clubs and 700,000 and then decide to set up leagues; the leagues are what spurred the development of these 11,000 clubs and 700,000 players. The whole point is to set up local leagues, so nobody needs to drive hundreds of miles.
 
I remember when we opened the Maryland Table Tennis Center many years ago. Over and over we were told there weren't enough players to support a full-time table tennis center devoted to coaching, that there was no way players would pay enough hours  for coaching to make it pay for itself. They missed the point - we weren't going after current players, we were going after NEW players. Now we have seven full-time coaches and over 300 hours of private coaching per week (plus group sessions), and full-time clubs with full-time coaches are popping up all over the country. Similarly, the purpose of a nationwide network of local leagues would be to bring in new players and new clubs, not for existing ones.
 
It will not an easy task, and it probably does need to start in populated regions. If there are local organizers, as tennis does in the U.S. and other countries do in table tennis, than any city can develop table tennis leagues, and from the players signing up for those leagues more clubs can pop up, just as they do overseas. Tennis has such local leagues all over the U.S. and huge numbers of players, and they started out just where we are now. There's no reason why table tennis can't do the same; in Europe, nearly every country sports associations have more table tennis members than tennis members.
 
-Larry Hodges

The main problem with promoting table tennis leagues in the U.S. is finding volunteers to organize leagues in the U.S., which is easier said than done.  People like us at LATTA, Bruce at ICC and you at MDTTC were eager to make our own clubs work, but it is very different than setting up leagues to -in essence- benefit the playing public by introducing organized play.  I understand your reasoning that by creating demand we could persuade more people to invest in infrastructure to host these leagues, but I simply do not see how we can have enough people to organize these leagues without a clear monetary compensation structure in place (unlike creating full-time private clubs like LATTA, ICC and MDTTC).

A very interesting fact that came out of participating in LATTF leagues is many club owners are actually leery of table tennis leagues competing for their own source of income.  Once a team of players from a club is committed to a league, they often no longer participate in many of their club's activities, such as weekly tournaments, practice sessions, and assisting in kids' group trainings.  They say the league play is more than enough for them.  Some club members even let their memberships expire since they don't have to be current to play in the league.  If a bunch of volunteers start to offer league play to new participants at a very low cost (which is a big "if" that I don't ever see that happening), I can assure you they won't get the support of most current club owners unless they receive enough monetary reward in return.  Your idea will need the backing of big facilities like YMCA to provide venue for these leagues, which won't come cheap either. 

I spent seven years in Buenos Aires, Argentina competing in table tennis in my youth.  Almost all their table tennis clubs are located in giant soccer stadium complexes owned by famous clubs like Boca Juniors, River Plate, Chacarita, Newell's Old Boys, Independiente and Argentinos Juniors, etc.  These clubs collect monthly membership fees (like the YMCA here) and offer a myriad of sports to their members, including table tennis.  Just imaging the Chicago Bulls or Washington Wizards offering monthly memberships to the masses and provide world-class sports facilities to them for almost every sport, regardless of their level or usage rate, for a flat fee of $40 a month.  We don't have anything like that in the U.S. except the YMCA.  So perhaps that's where you should be targeting to form new table tennis leagues. 

Regarding tennis, which I played briefly in college in the U.S., there are far more tennis courts already built in the U.S. than serious table tennis courts.  So again, the infrastructure for tennis is already in place.  Back them I could practice tennis outside of the campus at five different high school courts for free within five miles of my residence.  Same thing with basketball or soccer.  But not with table tennis. 

The way I see it, the major difference between America and Europe/Asia is table tennis is not an accepted sport here in elementary, middle and high schools, so we don't have a steady supply of new players interested in joining leagues when these kids grow up (unlike China, Japan, Korea and Taiwan).  Table tennis is almost completely supported by immigrants here and their kids (mostly Chinese), and they don't really care about playing in leagues but at their local club only.  In my humble opinion, table tennis must be introduced to all school kids in America like they did with soccer twenty five years ago... Without it we will never have any mainstream adults (whites, blacks, Hispanics) demanding places to play table tennis, as table tennis "the sport" is simply too foreign for them.  Until this happens table tennis in the U.S. will remain on life support, paid for almost exclusively by immigrants.






Edited by roundrobin - 05/06/2013 at 7:17pm
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red

Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 844
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

The goal of a nationwide network of local leagues isn't to set up leagues for currently existing clubs. The purpose is to use the leagues spur the creation of new clubs and players. This is how it was done in places all over the world, including Europe. Germany didn't start with 11,000 clubs and 700,000 and then decide to set up leagues; the leagues are what spurred the development of these 11,000 clubs and 700,000 players. The whole point is to set up local leagues, so nobody needs to drive hundreds of miles.
 
I remember when we opened the Maryland Table Tennis Center many years ago. Over and over we were told there weren't enough players to support a full-time table tennis center devoted to coaching, that there was no way players would pay enough hours  for coaching to make it pay for itself. They missed the point - we weren't going after current players, we were going after NEW players. Now we have seven full-time coaches and over 300 hours of private coaching per week (plus group sessions), and full-time clubs with full-time coaches are popping up all over the country. Similarly, the purpose of a nationwide network of local leagues would be to bring in new players and new clubs, not for existing ones.
 
It will not an easy task, and it probably does need to start in populated regions. If there are local organizers, as tennis does in the U.S. and other countries do in table tennis, than any city can develop table tennis leagues, and from the players signing up for those leagues more clubs can pop up, just as they do overseas. Tennis has such local leagues all over the U.S. and huge numbers of players, and they started out just where we are now. There's no reason why table tennis can't do the same; in Europe, nearly every country sports associations have more table tennis members than tennis members.
 
-Larry Hodges

The main problem with promoting table tennis leagues in the U.S. is finding volunteers to organize leagues in the U.S., which is easier said than done.  People like us at LATTA, Bruce at ICC and you at MDTTC were eager to make our own clubs work, but it is very different than setting up leagues to -in essence- benefit the playing public by introducing organized play.  I understand your reasoning that by creating demand we could persuade more people to invest in infrastructure to host these leagues, but I simply do not see how we can have enough people to organize these leagues without a clear monetary compensation structure in place (unlike creating full-time private clubs like LATTA, ICC and MDTTC).

A very interesting fact that came out of participating in LATTF leagues is many club owners are actually leery of table tennis leagues competing for their own source of income.  Once a team of players from a club is committed to a league, they often no longer participate in many of their club's activities, such as weekly tournaments, practice sessions, and assisting in kids' group trainings.  They say the league play is more than enough for them.  Some club members even let their memberships expire since they don't have to be current to play in the league.  If a bunch of volunteers start to offer league play to new participants at a very low cost (which is a big "if" that I don't ever see that happening), I can assure you they won't get the support of most current club owners unless they receive enough monetary reward in return.  Your idea will need the backing of big facilities like YMCA to provide venue for these leagues, which won't come cheap either. 

I spent seven years in Buenos Aires, Argentina competing in table tennis in my youth.  Almost all their table tennis clubs are located in giant soccer stadium complexes owned by famous clubs like Boca Juniors, River Plate, Chacarita, Newell's Old Boys, Independiente and Argentinos Juniors, etc.  These clubs collect monthly membership fees (like the YMCA here) and offer a myriad of sports to their members, including table tennis.  Just imaging the Chicago Bulls or Washington Wizards offering monthly memberships to the masses and provide world-class sports facilities to them for almost every sport, regardless of their level or usage rate, for a flat fee of $40 a month.  We don't have anything like that in the U.S. except the YMCA.  So perhaps that's where you should be targeting to form new table tennis leagues. 

Regarding tennis, which I played briefly in college in the U.S., there are far more tennis courts already built in the U.S. than serious table tennis courts.  So again, the infrastructure for tennis is already in place.  Back them I could practice tennis outside of the campus at five different high school courts for free within five miles of my residence.  Same thing with basketball or soccer.  But not with table tennis. 

The way I see it, the major difference between America and Europe/Asia is table tennis is not an accepted sport here in elementary, middle and high schools, so we have never had an endless supply of new players to be interested in playing organized table tennis leagues when these kids grow up.  Table tennis is almost completely supported by immigrants here and their kids (mostly Chinese), and they don't really care about playing in leagues but at their local club only.  In my humble opinion, table tennis must be introduced to all school kids in America like they did with soccer twenty five years ago... Without it we will never have any mainstream adults (whites, blacks, Hispanics) demanding places to play table tennis, as table tennis "the sport" is simply too foreign for them.  Until this happens table tennis in the U.S. will remain on life support, paid for almost exclusively by immigrants.
I disagree with much of this. Regarding finding volunteers to run the leagues, tennis has little trouble getting volunteers, and neither does table tennis in other countries. We just haven't done anything to organize it, region by region, as tennis in the U.S. and worldwide, and table tennis in other countries have done. It's possible that an American model might include monetary compensation - I'm open-minded to it being done that way, or volunteer like in tennis - but the point is to find an American model that can spread, region by region.
 
As to there being tennis courts all over the place, that's the whole point - they didn't have tennis courts all over the place before the sport was developed through leagues. Neither were there huge numbers of table tennis clubs in Europe until leagues spurred that growth. In both cases one could say there weren't enough tennis courts (or table tennis clubs in Europe) before the growth that took place through leagues.
 
Tennis in the U.S. has 700,000 members, and they are overwelmingly league players. Table tennis tries to rely on non-league members, and has only 8000 members. Meanwhile, countries all over Europe have hundreds of thousands of members through leagues. We simply haven't learned the lesson they have learned, and so continue in ways that don't work. There's no real difference between Europe and populated regions in the U.S.  The northeast (from Maryland to Maine), the southeast (Georgia and Florida), the midwest (the states bordering the Great Lakes), Texas, the entire west coast - all of these regions have populations that can sustain leagues. So can smaller regions, once leagues are established and someone sets it up. But it has to start somewhere, and that's what's missing.
 
As to table tennis not being an accepted sport here, that's true - but neither was tennis in the U.S. before it was popularized, and neither was table tennis overseas until it was popularized. The whole point is to set up the leagues that spur the growth of clubs and the popularity of the sport.
 
I firmly believe that for the sport to take off in the U.S., two things are needed: a growing nationwide network of regional leagues, and the continued growth of professional table tennis centers and professional coaches. (The leagues would not necessarily play in the professional centers - more likely they'd play in new clubs that would pop up for the benefit of the league, as happens in Europe.) When there is enough growth in the U.S. from these two pillars, then it will become a school sport, it will become a TV sport with professional leagues and professional players, and sponsors will come to us rather than us begging for them to sponsor a USATT with 8000 members and national tournaments that are invisible to the general public.
 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 05/06/2013 at 7:42pm
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16241
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 7:37pm
A tt fan could get angry at the number of tennis courts the city of Seattle gives away for free, many with lighting,

Check for yourselves: http://www.seattle.gov/parks/tennis.asp; I count 144!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At the price of prime real estate in Seattle, 620,000 people, about 800,000 SQUARE FEET are allocated to tennis only (the average figure 120x60 giving one million sf feet is wrong because we don't have necessary 12x2=24 feet between 2 adjacent courts)  

$150/sf is not rare for land in Seattle; more than $100,000,000 for tennis; not counting the cost of the courts, the lighting equipment, the bills associated with maintenance and energy consumption...

it's insane!

I wonder if the right legal challenge could allocate some to tt if investors backed by a petition asks for example, 3 of those courts (as a start Big smile) to build a warehouse run by a non profit.

but then the badminton people would line up; and the racket ball ones...etc...


Back to Top
popperlocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 03/24/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1755
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

The goal of a nationwide network of local leagues isn't to set up leagues for currently existing clubs. The purpose is to use the leagues spur the creation of new clubs and players. This is how it was done in places all over the world, including Europe. Germany didn't start with 11,000 clubs and 700,000 and then decide to set up leagues; the leagues are what spurred the development of these 11,000 clubs and 700,000 players. The whole point is to set up local leagues, so nobody needs to drive hundreds of miles.
 
I remember when we opened the Maryland Table Tennis Center many years ago. Over and over we were told there weren't enough players to support a full-time table tennis center devoted to coaching, that there was no way players would pay enough hours  for coaching to make it pay for itself. They missed the point - we weren't going after current players, we were going after NEW players. Now we have seven full-time coaches and over 300 hours of private coaching per week (plus group sessions), and full-time clubs with full-time coaches are popping up all over the country. Similarly, the purpose of a nationwide network of local leagues would be to bring in new players and new clubs, not for existing ones.
 
It will not an easy task, and it probably does need to start in populated regions. If there are local organizers, as tennis does in the U.S. and other countries do in table tennis, than any city can develop table tennis leagues, and from the players signing up for those leagues more clubs can pop up, just as they do overseas. Tennis has such local leagues all over the U.S. and huge numbers of players, and they started out just where we are now. There's no reason why table tennis can't do the same; in Europe, nearly every country sports associations have more table tennis members than tennis members.
 
-Larry Hodges

The main problem with promoting table tennis leagues in the U.S. is finding volunteers to organize leagues in the U.S., which is easier said than done.  People like us at LATTA, Bruce at ICC and you at MDTTC were eager to make our own clubs work, but it is very different than setting up leagues to -in essence- benefit the playing public by introducing organized play.  I understand your reasoning that by creating demand we could persuade more people to invest in infrastructure to host these leagues, but I simply do not see how we can have enough people to organize these leagues without a clear monetary compensation structure in place (unlike creating full-time private clubs like LATTA, ICC and MDTTC).

A very interesting fact that came out of participating in LATTF leagues is many club owners are actually leery of table tennis leagues competing for their own source of income.  Once a team of players from a club is committed to a league, they often no longer participate in many of their club's activities, such as weekly tournaments, practice sessions, and assisting in kids' group trainings.  They say the league play is more than enough for them.  Some club members even let their memberships expire since they don't have to be current to play in the league.  If a bunch of volunteers start to offer league play to new participants at a very low cost (which is a big "if" that I don't ever see that happening), I can assure you they won't get the support of most current club owners unless they receive enough monetary reward in return.  Your idea will need the backing of big facilities like YMCA to provide venue for these leagues, which won't come cheap either. 

I spent seven years in Buenos Aires, Argentina competing in table tennis in my youth.  Almost all their table tennis clubs are located in giant soccer stadium complexes owned by famous clubs like Boca Juniors, River Plate, Chacarita, Newell's Old Boys, Independiente and Argentinos Juniors, etc.  These clubs collect monthly membership fees (like the YMCA here) and offer a myriad of sports to their members, including table tennis.  Just imaging the Chicago Bulls or Washington Wizards offering monthly memberships to the masses and provide world-class sports facilities to them for almost every sport, regardless of their level or usage rate, for a flat fee of $40 a month.  We don't have anything like that in the U.S. except the YMCA.  So perhaps that's where you should be targeting to form new table tennis leagues. 

Regarding tennis, which I played briefly in college in the U.S., there are far more tennis courts already built in the U.S. than serious table tennis courts.  So again, the infrastructure for tennis is already in place.  Back them I could practice tennis outside of the campus at five different high school courts for free within five miles of my residence.  Same thing with basketball or soccer.  But not with table tennis. 

The way I see it, the major difference between America and Europe/Asia is table tennis is not an accepted sport here in elementary, middle and high schools, so we don't have a steady supply of new players interested in joining leagues when these kids grow up (unlike China, Japan, Korea and Taiwan).  Table tennis is almost completely supported by immigrants here and their kids (mostly Chinese), and they don't really care about playing in leagues but at their local club only.  In my humble opinion, table tennis must be introduced to all school kids in America like they did with soccer twenty five years ago... Without it we will never have any mainstream adults (whites, blacks, Hispanics) demanding places to play table tennis, as table tennis "the sport" is simply too foreign for them.  Until this happens table tennis in the U.S. will remain on life support, paid for almost exclusively by immigrants.
I concur with your analysis. Leagues are not possible in the US, unless it's run by government facilities/ymca. And government facilities do hold leagues for other sports, but like you say "TT is too foreign/not considered a sport." Maybe 20-50 years later with overcrowding and changing trends, TT will become fashionable and be a real sport.
Member of the YU ZIYANG is Yo DADDY Fan Club
H3Neo National $145
Hurricane Long 5 National $1000
Tenergy 05 National $145
CNT Autographed Shirt $500
Louis Vuitton Shorts $900
I Love TT
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 844
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2013 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

I concur with your analysis. Leagues are not possible in the US, unless it's run by government facilities/ymca. And government facilities do hold leagues for other sports, but like you say "TT is too foreign/not considered a sport." Maybe 20-50 years later with overcrowding and changing trends, TT will become fashionable and be a real sport.
You could say the same thing you say above about professional table tennis centers a few years ago. Now that we've gone from 10 to nearly 60 in about seven years, we realize that if you promote a table tennis center, people will come. Similarly, if you promote a table tennis league, people will come, the sport will grow, and it becomes a popular sport (i.e. "fashionable and a real sport"). Table tennis in the U.S. right now is similar to Europe before the growth of their table tennis leagues, and tennis in the U.S. before the growth of their tennis leagues. Before that, neither sport was considered "fashionable and a real sport." Somehow they became fashionable and a real sport - and they did it primarily through leagues. They also used junior development programs. When the sports became popular enough, they were accepted as sports by the schools, TV and sponsors came, and professional leagues were set up.
 
Setting up leagues is simply a bigger undertaking than individual professional centers. It's probably just a matter of time before someone has the resources and will to set up such leagues on a regional basis, starting in perhaps one region and growing to others.
 
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.