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Warning about Paypal as gift (friends and family)

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Baal View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/06/2014 at 9:57am
The moderators would like to strongly discourage the use of the paypal "gift" or the "friends or family" options for transactions on MyTT.   If you chose those options, Paypal will not provide any type of protection to the buyer.  We believe it is unreasonable for a seller to demand this, even if it does save a few bucks.

A new member to MyTT, who is an expert on Paypal, suggests that if you link a Paypal payment to a credit card, the credit card company may provide some protection if you have to dispute the transaction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Antuan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 10:25am
Perfect! I think sellers must include 4% fee in their prices.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:52pm
Sellers can set whatever price they wish and if a buyer can accept the price a deal is made.  But the buyer needs to be able to protect themselves and the gift option does not allow that.

I have noticed that other websites where people buy and sell specialized items (not table tennis) have totally banned the practice of sellers requesting payment as a gift.  Here this would mean that a moderator would have to go through every For Sale thread and edit out requests for gift options.  I am not going to do that.

But I think the culture here needs to be that this is not a reasonable request by a seller, even if it adds 3-4% to the price of the transaction. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:15pm
While there are many members here who I have no concerns using PayPal gift with (AndySmith, fatt, JimT, piligrim, sahiggs, tibi, speedy, chronos, assiduous, etc.), I would be extremely leery of using PayPal gift with a new user who has no rep. The exception being if one of the mentioned members vouched for them.

The mods have enough to do without an additional task of micromanaging this, in my opinion. It behooves all of us to exercise good judgment.

Edited by the_theologian - 08/06/2014 at 10:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:31pm
Yeah, I agreed with Baal on this issue. The default should be not paypal as gift unless the buyer has a good reputation then the total can be reduce 3-4% with paypal as gift option. This is an open forum and there are definitely some bad bugs.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 11:01pm
The moderators would like to change the culture around here so that even transactions with people with a good reputation would not be done with the paypal gift option.  But like I said, this is not an official rule (for now), just a strong recommendation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 11:21pm
I wonder if this would cause a reversal of risk... where trusted sellers would now have to worry about buyers that would scam.

Edited by the_theologian - 08/06/2014 at 11:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote angelleye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 11:28pm
For future reference, it goes beyond just the gift option.  If you specify that the payment will be a "personal payment" in some versions of PayPal it will show "friends or family" as opposed to "goods or services" for the payment reason.  If you choose friends and family / personal it won't charge a fee to the seller, but then it works just like gift where they won't honor buyer protection of any kind.

It's a handy thing to know about when you do know and trust the person you're paying as it can indeed save money for one or the other, but it should be used with caution.

Another good practice to get into is to set the funding source of the PayPal payment during checkout to a credit card.  This way even if PayPal won't honor protection for some reason, you can always call the credit card company directly and submit a dispute/chargeback.  Credit card companies want to protect their consumers, so they will give you an immediate credit "pending investigation" and I very rarely see people get denied completely when they file chargebacks directly with cc companies.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 1:30am
Originally posted by angelleye angelleye wrote:



Another good practice to get into is to set the funding source of the PayPal payment during checkout to a credit card.  This way even if PayPal won't honor protection for some reason, you can always call the credit card company directly and submit a dispute/chargeback.  Credit card companies want to protect their consumers, so they will give you an immediate credit "pending investigation" and I very rarely see people get denied completely when they file chargebacks directly with cc companies.  


This is very good advice, and welcome to the forum!  As they tell boxers, "protect yourself at all times".  I edited my opening comment to include this.  Thanks!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 1:40am
Originally posted by the_theologian the_theologian wrote:

I wonder if this would cause a reversal of risk... where trusted sellers would now have to worry about buyers that would scam.


Yes, it could have that effect, but would someone be able to constantly dispute every time they buy something?  You have definitely identified something that we have to also be aware of.  At the end of the day, this is the internet, and you enter into transactions here at your own risk.  The moderators and owner of this forum are not responsible for the risks that you take here.  We do our best to identify and ban scammers and people who cause problems, but our ability to do that has limits. 

Also, this is another reason why we are not making this a hard and fast rule. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 6:14am
if buyer uses cc to pay as a gift,the buyer needs to pay fee.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Antuan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 6:34am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

if buyer uses cc to pay as a gift,the buyer needs to pay fee.
If you pay as gift there is no fee.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote angelleye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 7:40am
Originally posted by Antuan Antuan wrote:

Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

if buyer uses cc to pay as a gift,the buyer needs to pay fee.
If you pay as gift there is no fee.Wink

There is when you specify cc as the funding source.  The only way to avoid the fee with personal or gift payments is to pay with PayPal or bank funds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 9:31am
What is the cost to seller if buyer pays as payment?  I propose seller add 2% to what they expect to receive to the cost, kind of split the cost with the buyer.  As a buyer I don't mind paying 2% extra for a peace of mind, specially by paying  as gift I already have to add some fee, so the 2% is nothing.  As a seller you may get a little less than if the payment is as gift, but on the other hand you may get more expose to new buyers.

Edited by mhnh007 - 08/07/2014 at 9:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 10:20am
People can work it out as part of the negotiation.  But I would still suggest to a buyer that if a seller is demanding payment as a gift, it is an unreasonable request. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 1:00pm
Actually, most sales here are at about -10% ebay prices (ebay fee). If someone sells at ebay, they need to pay paypal fee as well. So sellers do not lose money at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 9:13pm
I will no longer ask other members, unless it's one of my close buddies, to pay as $ to family/friends. It places both parties in an awkward position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

I will no longer ask other members, unless it's one of my close buddies, to pay as $ to family/friends. It places both parties in an awkward position.

Tommy if I ever have a transaction with you I will pay as family/friend to you and a few other respected members. Trouble arises with new people trying to scam everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2014 at 12:00am
Thanks, Viva!
And, I agree with you. Avoid $ as friend/family if you don't know the person . . . be smart!


Edited by tommyzai - 08/08/2014 at 12:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kitzter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2014 at 10:36pm
Hi,

I think if payment is done by invoice/bill, there will be buyers protection. Correct me if i'm wrong.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 12:50pm
Check the "warning about scam" thread above this one for a case study.  See pages 2 and 3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2014 at 12:38am
Protect yourself at all times, and if you have doubts about a seller don't make a deal.  Many of the people who sell here have long track records and you can find threads about them.  These are people who are scrupulously honest.  Be careful with people who are new to the forum or for whom there is not much history.  Do not use the Paypal gift option with people you do not know well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2014 at 12:40am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Protect yourself at all times, and if you have doubts about a seller don't make a deal.  Many of the people who sell here have long track records and you can find threads about them.  These are people who are scrupulously honest.  Be careful with people who are new to the forum or for whom there is not much history.  Do not use the Paypal gift option with people you do not know well.


+1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2014 at 12:33pm
I no longer pay as $ to friends or family or ask others to pay me in this fashion unless they are friends or family. I should mention, however, there are a handful of MYTT members that I consider friends, many of which have either visited me or I visited them . . . Guangdong, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, New York, Vegas, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2015 at 4:23pm
I don't think sellers are always doing this because of the 3.5% fee.  I think they're doing it because paypal offers them no protection at all on international shipments that are untraceable.

For example, I've lost a lot of packages to India and a few to Israel and Turkey, and a couple to South America.  There is no postal tracking to those countries.  Therefore, the buyer is free to claim they never got it and paypal will immediately refund their money upon complaint.

However many sellers you may think are out there ripping people off, I can promise you there's 10x the number of buyers.  In other instances, I can imagine the buyer gets frustrated over not receiving the package.  They file a claim or the sender refunds on request.  Legit at the time.

Then the package shows up from customs a month or two later.  There's no tracking.  How many customers are going to be honest enough to tell the seller that so far after the refund.  In my experience, exactly none.

I've been called a racist against a number of countries.  Sorry, it's not the country I'm prejudice against.  I just don't trust their postal systems.  It's a really tough spot for sellers.

So before you make a judgement, put yourself in their place.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote angelleye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2015 at 6:56pm
The simple solution to that is to ship with a trackable service.  USPS doesn't track well.  UPS and FedEx do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2015 at 12:04am
Nobody wants to pay for that. They want it po cheap but you eat the risk. It's just not feasible for smaller orders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote angelleye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2015 at 12:36am
Well then you're back to the decision of risk vs. reward.  It's far from an unsolvable problem, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2015 at 7:38pm
My only point being, I've asked customers to send as gift before, and there are reasons why. As you say, they can make the decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttping85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2015 at 7:41am
The custom declaration number can give you minimal tracking of your package abroad on uses website even when you didn't pay for tracking. You can't follow the whole shipping process but at least it says when it was shipped, when it left the US and when it was delivered.
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