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Westchester TTC 2019 May Open

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aerial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 7:26pm
so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 9:18am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 9:41am
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
USATT rating system will adjust the rapidly developing player if they've gained more that 50 pts. (50-74 pts.: tier1; 75+ pts: tier2).  Ratings are then recalculated based on this adjusted rating so that you don't lose as many points to the adjusted player since the recalculation is based on the adjusted rating rather than the initial rating:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 10:14am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
USATT rating system will adjust the rapidly developing player if they've gained more that 50 pts. (50-74 pts.: tier1; 75+ pts: tier2).  Ratings are then recalculated based on this adjusted rating so that you don't lose as many points to the adjusted player since the recalculation is based on the adjusted rating rather than the initial rating:



Same with Canadian system, I believe.  The adjusted player will have a 'T' beside the newly adjusted rating, and the loosers to the player with the 'T' rating will not loose any points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ttunderthesun21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 10:49am
Yeah this kid beat me too, he's probably like 2100 USATT.  I know he came out like high 1900's after the fact, but that's due to one bad loss.  He played ALL day both days.  On paper he was like 1500, so there isn't really a way to know if he is actually unrated in the states unless you look it up.  Especially when playing all day.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 11:00am
No matter what rating conversion is,  it is unfair to other players. It is unique to Westchester. It seems the previous post said correctly and they always allow unrated person to advance by visual inspecting players or other ways.




Edited by mentortt - 05/30/2019 at 11:02am
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Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

No matter what rating conversion is,  it is unfair to other players. It is unique to Westchester. It seems the previous post said correctly and they always allow unrated person to advance by visual inspecting players or other ways.



Hmm if they do visual inspection, then yeah I can kind of see how they came up with that number.  His game wasn't anything special (like nothing that jumped out), very consistent, and solid BH.  Still, felt it was a bit unfair oh well.  

That's why Westchester is such a test, you don't know who will show up every month.  


Edited by Ttunderthesun21 - 05/30/2019 at 11:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 11:17am
I am pretty sure they assign a rating for unrated player even they don't have rating anywhere and allow them to advance.

I don't know USATT rules much. Base on my limited knowledge, tournament director has power to give unrated player pre-rating such as league rating if they have. But they cannot advance their group in their first US tournament. Anyone know the rule, please correct me.

Originally posted by Ttunderthesun21 Ttunderthesun21 wrote:

Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

No matter what rating conversion is,  it is unfair to other players. It is unique to Westchester. It seems the previous post said correctly and they always allow unrated person to advance by visual inspecting players or other ways.



Hmm if they do visual inspection, then yeah I can kind of see how they came up with that number.  His game wasn't anything special (like nothing that jumped out), very consistent, and solid BH.  Still, felt it was a bit unfair oh well.  

That's why Westchester is such a test, you don't know who will show up every month.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 11:41am
Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

I am pretty sure they assign a rating for unrated player even they don't have rating anywhere and allow them to advance.

I don't know USATT rules much. Base on my limited knowledge, tournament director has power to give unrated player pre-rating such as league rating if they have. But they cannot advance their group in their first US tournament. Anyone know the rule, please correct me.

Originally posted by Ttunderthesun21 Ttunderthesun21 wrote:

Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

No matter what rating conversion is,  it is unfair to other players. It is unique to Westchester. It seems the previous post said correctly and they always allow unrated person to advance by visual inspecting players or other ways.



Hmm if they do visual inspection, then yeah I can kind of see how they came up with that number.  His game wasn't anything special (like nothing that jumped out), very consistent, and solid BH.  Still, felt it was a bit unfair oh well.  

That's why Westchester is such a test, you don't know who will show up every month.  
There is no written rule that players with no rating can/can not advance out of RR rated based events. It’s entirely up to the tournament director of said tournament. 
https://www.facebook.com/SeattlePacificTableTennisClub/timeline
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 11:48am
Hope Larry can see this thread and clarify the rule. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
USATT rating system will adjust the rapidly developing player if they've gained more that 50 pts. (50-74 pts.: tier1; 75+ pts: tier2).  Ratings are then recalculated based on this adjusted rating so that you don't lose as many points to the adjusted player since the recalculation is based on the adjusted rating rather than the initial rating:



Same with Canadian system, I believe.  The adjusted player will have a 'T' beside the newly adjusted rating, and the loosers to the player with the 'T' rating will not loose any points.
Sry, "T' means temporary rating in Canadian system. It is for the new player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
USATT rating system will adjust the rapidly developing player if they've gained more that 50 pts. (50-74 pts.: tier1; 75+ pts: tier2).  Ratings are then recalculated based on this adjusted rating so that you don't lose as many points to the adjusted player since the recalculation is based on the adjusted rating rather than the initial rating:



Same with Canadian system, I believe.  The adjusted player will have a 'T' beside the newly adjusted rating, and the loosers to the player with the 'T' rating will not loose any points.
Sry, "T' means temporary rating in Canadian system. It is for the new player.
When a player is adjusted, the same 'T' appears.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

When a player is adjusted, the same 'T' appears.
The "T" will be removed after few game

3. NEW PLAYERS
A player enters the ranking list with her/his first competition and gets a ‘T’ (temporary) rating.

3.1 If a player has wins and losses, of which the ‘lowest loss’ is against a player ranked
higher than the highest rated player against whom s/he achieved a win, the temporary rating
will be that of his ‘highest win’.
Example:Jean has 3 wins and 1 loss in his first tournament; the three wins are against
players ranked 1950, 1998, 2010 and his loss is against a player rated 2050, Jean’s
temporary rating will be 2010.

3.2 If a player has wins and losses, of which the ‘lowest loss’ is lower than her/his
highest win a median rating will be established as her/his temporary rating.
Example:Wing has wins against players rated 1145, 1070 and 1210 and a loss against a
player ranked 1100, Wing’s temporary rating will be 1155.

3.3 If a player has no losses, his temporary rating will be her/his highest win +100
3.4 If a player has no wins, his temporary rating (T) will be 100.

3.5 The process described above (3.1 – 3.4) continues until a player has 5 wins and 1
loss, or 15 wins – at which point the T is removed and a player attains a ‘regular’
rating.

3.6 Players who play against a player with a ‘T’ rating earn, but cannot lose points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote SignatureDish81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 10:28pm
Advancing unrated players seems to be frowned upon, but not explicitly condemned, according to Chapter 7 of USATT Tournament Guide on Round Robins:


5. Unrated Players. Round robin play is designed to allow players to play several matches with the best player winning or advancing.

5.a. If you are running rating events and have unrated players win those events, it may be disturbing to the rated players. 

5.b. It is recommended to allow unrated players to compete in rating events but not advance if they win their group. Such limitation must be announced in the entry blank, e.g. “Unrated players may enter round robin rating events but will not be permitted to advance from the group. The rated player with the highest finish will advance.“

5.c. Unrated players should never be excluded from advancing from a round robin group such as a giant round robin where the preliminary groups are used to place players in later events based on their order of finish.

5.d. Unrated players should never be excluded from advancing from a round robin group in a championship or other event if rating is not the basis for the event, e.g. women’s or age limited events. Exclusion is appropriate if it is Over 50 and under 1500, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2019 at 11:07pm
Thanks! The key word is that "recommended". It did "disturbing" to the lower rated player.

Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

Advancing unrated players seems to be frowned upon, but not explicitly condemned, according to Chapter 7 of USATT Tournament Guide on Round Robins:
5. Unrated Players. Round robin play is designed to allow players to play several matches with the best player winning or advancing.
5.a. If you are running rating events and have unrated players win those events, it may be disturbing to the rated players. 
5.b. It is recommended to allow unrated players to compete in rating events but not advance if they win their group. Such limitation must be announced in the entry blank, e.g. “Unrated players may enter round robin rating events but will not be permitted to advance from the group. The rated player with the highest finish will advance.“
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2019 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

When a player is adjusted, the same 'T' appears.
The "T" will be removed after few game

3. NEW PLAYERS
A player enters the ranking list with her/his first competition and gets a ‘T’ (temporary) rating.

3.1 If a player has wins and losses, of which the ‘lowest loss’ is against a player ranked
higher than the highest rated player against whom s/he achieved a win, the temporary rating
will be that of his ‘highest win’.
Example:Jean has 3 wins and 1 loss in his first tournament; the three wins are against
players ranked 1950, 1998, 2010 and his loss is against a player rated 2050, Jean’s
temporary rating will be 2010.

3.2 If a player has wins and losses, of which the ‘lowest loss’ is lower than her/his
highest win a median rating will be established as her/his temporary rating.
Example:Wing has wins against players rated 1145, 1070 and 1210 and a loss against a
player ranked 1100, Wing’s temporary rating will be 1155.

3.3 If a player has no losses, his temporary rating will be her/his highest win +100
3.4 If a player has no wins, his temporary rating (T) will be 100.

3.5 The process described above (3.1 – 3.4) continues until a player has 5 wins and 1
loss, or 15 wins – at which point the T is removed and a player attains a ‘regular’
rating.

3.6 Players who play against a player with a ‘T’ rating earn, but cannot lose points.
This will apply if you win all much higher rated players in a tournament as described in this section.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2019 at 10:19am
A tournament committee has the right to assign an estimatedrating to an unrated player. From what I understand, that unrated player may then be treated as a rated player (fairly or unfairly), so a phrase like "unrated can't advance" doesn't apply. When the ratings get processed, the initial rating will be 0 or N/A and the ratings chairman may take the advice of the one who submits the results to adjust that player to an estimated rating.
TT idiom - Don't count your rating before the match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2019 at 11:05am
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

This will apply if you win all much higher rated players in a tournament as described in this section.
???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SignatureDish81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2019 at 11:49am
They have the right to use that discretion. It’s not just their right to assign an estimated rating, it is advised to always make a conscientious effort to assign an estimated rating to unrated players.


Chapter 6 of Handbook:

14. New Players

14.b. The tournament director should make a conscientious effort to estimate a player's rating. A league rating based on the USATT rating system may be used; an estimate by an experienced coach; or a comparison of wins and losses against rated players.

It’s a practice that may disturb rated players and could lead to disgruntled players semi-detailing a thread as they vent frustrations on internet forums. Let the estimated players play, but maybe don’t let them advance to playoffs in their first tournament appearance. They’ll only be unrated once.
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