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why did lebesson complain?

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    Posted: 11/15/2019 at 4:30pm
8:28 is the time when the world explodes



Edited by pingpungpeng - 11/19/2019 at 12:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 4:41pm
Her body language does not say anything whatsoever. Maybe she said a word of victory loud enough to be heard by her opponents when Lebesson was reaching to a ball still in play.
It cannot be unfair since the Japanese pair did not complain much and the score was brought back from 10-6 to 9-7; all indicates a no brainer decision; but one hard to figure out from the video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 5:05pm
very strange indeed Ermm
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She said something in the middle of play, probably an apology for the net. But the point was not over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 5:17pm
Makes no sense to me.  Point should have stayed with Japan, but at worst it could be a called a let for a disturbance so replay the point.  Don't know how the umpire justifies giving the point to France.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

She said something in the middle of play, probably an apology for the net. But the point was not over.
yes, that's what it was.  This happens sometimes with my friendly matches - I let them have the point (if I fail to return it) but warn them not to do it again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

She said something in the middle of play, probably an apology for the net. But the point was not over.

isn't that normal?
if you think the point is over you say sorry.
if it was not over then the point continues.
I've never seen a point given because of that "sorry".

it's all very strange........
ovtcharov makes very loud noises all throughout the point which forces viewers to mute the speaker and nobody says a word.
hayata might have said "sorry" in a super low voice?
french kiss goes EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the point is given to his side.
LOL


Edited by pingpungpeng - 11/15/2019 at 5:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

She said something in the middle of play, probably an apology for the net. But the point was not over.

isn't that normal?
if you think the point is over you say sorry.
if it was not over then the point continues.
I've never seen a point given because of that "sorry".

it's all very strange........
ovtcharov makes very loud noises all throughout the point which forces you to mute the speaker and nobody says a word.
hayata might have said "sorry" in a super low voice?
french kiss goes EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the point is given to his side.
LOL

it doesn't seem equitable, but those are the rules , moans ok, speaking not ok


Edited by tom - 11/15/2019 at 5:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

She said something in the middle of play, probably an apology for the net. But the point was not over.

isn't that normal?
if you think the point is over you say sorry.
if it was not over then the point continues.
I've never seen a point given because of that "sorry".

it's all very strange........
ovtcharov makes very loud noises all throughout the point which forces you to mute the speaker and nobody says a word.
hayata might have said "sorry" in a super low voice?
french kiss goes EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the point is given to his side.
LOL

it doesn't seem equitable, but those are the rules , moans ok, speaking not ok

but
OOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAA
MUUUUOOOAAAAAAAAA
BUOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
UUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGG
BUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
FFFLLLUUUUUGHGHGHGHGHGHGHHGHGHGHG

are just combinations of letters, the same as words.

maybe in some ancient language UUUUGGGHGHGHGHGHG is a word.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 11/15/2019 at 5:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 8:46pm
How is Lebesson's zig zag serve technique legal

In theory the umpire should have stopped the rally if he heard words and given the point to the French
and not be swayed after the point
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

How is Lebesson's zig zag serve technique legal

In theory the umpire should have stopped the rally if he heard words and given the point to the French
and not be swayed after the point
this! 
It's the center of the discussion, the umpire going on the path of least resistance: if he decided in favor of the French after the point then it means he knew what had happened and then not stopping the point right away can be interpreted as indecision. I notice he gives the point to the French pretty quickly though, while Lebesson still has his arm extended horizontally so if it's a umpire's mistake, it's a very small one.
One thing to notice is many people will react differently here in function of cultures and characters, it will go all over the place from "the rules are the rules" to "gimme a freakin' break."


Edited by stiltt - 11/15/2019 at 9:12pm
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Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

How is Lebesson's zig zag serve technique legal  

It might help us to understand better if you had explained first as to how it is NOT legal.

Don't mean to give you a hard time but I think you should have opened this can of worms in a different thread may be ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Makes no sense to me.  Point should have stayed with Japan, but at worst it could be a called a let for a disturbance so replay the point.  Don't know how the umpire justifies giving the point to France.  

My understanding (maybe I am wrong) of the rules is that if you talk during a point you lose the point. No lets.

But I am not sure if Hina said anything. If she did & if the umpire heard it, she loses the point.

Then again if you assume she did not say anything, it would be interesting to know how  this rule would apply or not apply if you just make this gesture but not say a word . Or another gesture such as show a middle finger like maybe John McEnroe or Jimmy Connors or Illie Nastase may do LOL   

I am guilty many times of rather giving up and yelling "Amazing loop" while reaching full length and chopping it back luckily from 10 feet to land on opponent's side correctly


Edited by abdeen - 11/15/2019 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by abdeen abdeen wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Makes no sense to me.  Point should have stayed with Japan, but at worst it could be a called a let for a disturbance so replay the point.  Don't know how the umpire justifies giving the point to France.  

My understanding (maybe I am wrong) of the rules is that if you talk during a point you lose the point. No lets.

But I am not sure if Hina said anything. If she did & if the umpire heard it, she loses the point.

Then again if you assume she did not say anything, it would be interesting to know how  this rule would apply or not apply if you just make this gesture but not say a word . Or another gesture such as show a middle finger like maybe John McEnroe or Jimmy Connors or Illie Nastase may do LOL   

I am guilty many times of rather giving up and yelling "Amazing loop" while reaching full length and chopping it back luckily from 10 feet to land on opponent's side correctly
Can you cite any rule that would give the point to the French team?  I think Japan should have won the point.  But I left open the possibility of a let in case of a very liberal interpretation of:

2.9.1.3 if failure to make a service or a return or otherwise to comply with the Laws is due to a disturbance outside the control of the player;
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by abdeen abdeen wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Makes no sense to me.  Point should have stayed with Japan, but at worst it could be a called a let for a disturbance so replay the point.  Don't know how the umpire justifies giving the point to France.  

My understanding (maybe I am wrong) of the rules is that if you talk during a point you lose the point. No lets.

But I am not sure if Hina said anything. If she did & if the umpire heard it, she loses the point.

Then again if you assume she did not say anything, it would be interesting to know how  this rule would apply or not apply if you just make this gesture but not say a word . Or another gesture such as show a middle finger like maybe John McEnroe or Jimmy Connors or Illie Nastase may do LOL   

I am guilty many times of rather giving up and yelling "Amazing loop" while reaching full length and chopping it back luckily from 10 feet to land on opponent's side correctly
Can you cite any rule that would give the point to the French team?  I think Japan should have won the point.  But I left open the possibility of a let in case of a very liberal interpretation of:

2.9.1.3 if failure to make a service or a return or otherwise to comply with the Laws is due to a disturbance outside the control of the player;

this is what blows my mind.
you hear other players screaming super loud in the back all the time, the crowd cheering... they don't care.
hayata maybe mumbles and he loses his mind?

also remember it's a japanese + it's a girl.
they are super shy.
look at the continuation of the video, she says "sorry" with her hand like 20 times, probably because the whole situation is embarrassing.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 11/15/2019 at 10:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 10:38pm
How is Lebesson's zig zag serve technique legal

  In theory the umpire should have stopped the rally if he heard words and given the point to the French    and not be swayed after the point ' - smackman


 Agree completely with this observation on Lebesson's serves. I just cannot understand how at this level   of competition, umpires are oblivious to the flagrant violations of the service rules. Astonishing.

 On the issue at hand, the best and most equitable decision the umpire should have made was a 'let'; and that was IF he had observed that the Japanese player had disrupted or disturbed play; in this instance, that the Japanese player had uttered something that had disrupted the concentration of the French player. It was unintentional afterall. A warning to the Japanese player and a 'let' would be appropriate.

But, my observation is that it was the French player who had, upon returning the ball, saw that his return would be killed off for sure, he had then raised his arms and acted as such; protesting and acting innocent. IF the return was unreturnable; an alltime best return or shot, he would have acted differently.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deams59 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2019 at 11:40pm
Definitely an incorrect decision by the umpire. The laws of table tennis do not allow for a point to be awarded to the French team in this situation.  As previously stated but another poster there could be grounds for a let. However, for a let to be awarded one must consider the actions of the French player. Did he complain because he did a poor return and set the ball up for his opponents or was he just lobbing the ball back because he was affected by the opponents apology?  Players grunt and make noises all of the time so I don't really think even a let is warranted. Should a point be awarded against a player who hits the table with his bat thus making a noise when pushing back a return? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deams59 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 1:31am
What I find interesting is that 4 world class players, the umpire, the commentator and the Japanese coach don't know the rules.  The Japanese team also had the right to refer the decision to the match referee but didn't. 

Awarding a point for something not covered by rule 2.10 can only be done for misbehaviour under section 3.5.2 in less serious cases but only where a yellow card has been issued for a previous offence. Serious cases are referred to the match referee. So even if the Japanese player swore at the French, the umpire still could not award that point to the French. 

These players often play on a table next to Harimoto screaming his head off but it doesn't affect them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 1:59am
The referee decision doesn't make sense. Let's not talk about rules because if you enforce the rules perfectly, most players have illegal serves in some way. The decisions are based on the rules but must also make sense.

Unsportsmanlike move from Lebesson, he knew complaining about Hayata's apology is the only chance to get/steal that point. 

The Japanese pair was too fair and kind to protest the referee decision. Imagine Michael Maze or Chen Weixing in this case, it would not be so easy :D


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 2:57am
Imo pro athletes have such complete focus on the ball it's ridiculous to say a noise could distract them.  Think about a basketball player taking a free throw with a crowd behind the basket screaming and waving stuff dorectly in his vision.  For a top pro like Lebesson to claim he was distracted by the opponent speaking Sorry during a point is equivalent to saying "I suck at my job."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deams59 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 3:37am
Playing against 2 kids, one 16 and the other 19 and with a young and probably inexperienced umpire Lebesson thought he may at least get a let. He probably did a lot better than he expected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pitigoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 9:24am
I must remind myself not to talk during the play. I sometimes do a "oh-no!" when I hit with the edge of the paddle, and then it lands on the table. But I stopped saying "sorry" for nets and edges since experienced players may return those. I still do it when the point is over and we do not count points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 9:36am
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

The referee decision doesn't make sense. Let's not talk about rules because if you enforce the rules perfectly, most players have illegal serves in some way. The decisions are based on the rules but must also make sense.



I will talk about "this" rule.  Umpire is obligated to enforce the rules.

What does not enforcing some other rules perfectly have to do with anything ?  Yes umpires miss illegal serves all the time & in some cases they may not enforce obvious rule violations.

This is very weird situation because it was hard for me looking at the videos as to how much Hina was in violation but unfortunately Lebesson seemingly had a perfectly legal claim. How much he was distracted by Hina is a very confusing issue. I am also not sure if Lebesson's claim was very unethical or unsportsmanlike.

Japanese (or any other culture) are very sweet (or shy) people is not an issue unfortunately in this context


Edited by abdeen - 11/16/2019 at 9:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 10:18am
I was surprised not too find  a rule on disturbing the rally on purpose. At the end either speaking during play is a violation or not. If it is , a point have to be awarded to the other team and if not the play goes on. It is definitely not a let situation .

Edited by tom - 11/16/2019 at 10:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 10:42am
Originally posted by abdeen abdeen wrote:

Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

The referee decision doesn't make sense. Let's not talk about rules because if you enforce the rules perfectly, most players have illegal serves in some way. The decisions are based on the rules but must also make sense.



I will talk about "this" rule.  Umpire is obligated to enforce the rules.

What does not enforcing some other rules perfectly have to do with anything ?  Yes umpires miss illegal serves all the time & in some cases they may not enforce obvious rule violations.

This is very weird situation because it was hard for me looking at the videos as to how much Hina was in violation but unfortunately Lebesson seemingly had a perfectly legal claim. How much he was distracted by Hina is a very confusing issue. I am also not sure if Lebesson's claim was very unethical or unsportsmanlike.

Japanese (or any other culture) are very sweet (or shy) people is not an issue unfortunately in this context
In violation of what, and perfectly legal claim to what? There is no rule that I could find that gives the point to France. Here's the official ITTF handbo ok for reference:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 10:46am
Originally posted by abdeen abdeen wrote:

Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

The referee decision doesn't make sense. Let's not talk about rules because if you enforce the rules perfectly, most players have illegal serves in some way. The decisions are based on the rules but must also make sense.



I will talk about "this" rule.  Umpire is obligated to enforce the rules.

What does not enforcing some other rules perfectly have to do with anything ?  Yes umpires miss illegal serves all the time & in some cases they may not enforce obvious rule violations.

This is very weird situation because it was hard for me looking at the videos as to how much Hina was in violation but unfortunately Lebesson seemingly had a perfectly legal claim. How much he was distracted by Hina is a very confusing issue. I am also not sure if Lebesson's claim was very unethical or unsportsmanlike.

Japanese (or any other culture) are very sweet (or shy) people is not an issue unfortunately in this context

I think it's possible that harimoto and hayata have no idea what lebesson is complaining about.
maybe they don't speak very good english or don't know the rules that well.
so they just want the whole situation to move on, points to be played.
maybe they have this idea that in such a big environment with professional umpires nobody's gonna try to fool them....

if you look at the "discussion" between the umpire and the japanese.... nobody really says a word, except for the french who still seems very upset.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 11/16/2019 at 11:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 4:23pm
I always thought this situation called for a let if it affected the players judgement and that was up to the player to decide.  For example, if player A pops the ball up on the serve and screams "OMG NO I AM DEAD! WHY WHY WHY?" and player B misses the smash then player B can call Let if they want to.  If they put away the high serve they don't have to call let. 

I might be mis-remembering but there was a match at Westfield back in its heyday where both players were quite vocal.  It was like 20-19 in the 3rd when one player was lobbing and the other player who was leading said "I've got you now, you (some not so nice phrase)!" and put away a winner.  The crowed went nuts and the guy who thought he won went to shake hands with the other guy.  After the crowd calmed down, the referee just said "let" and the guy who thought he won freaked out.  After some arguing they had to replay the point.  20-20.  Then the guy who yelled before the smash eventually lost the match.  He should have kept his mouth shut until after the point was over.  It cost him the match. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 5:46pm
tell me I am wrong.   No let for disturbances or interruptions within control of the players once the rally has started if the rules are applied 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

tell me I am wrong.   No let for disturbances or interruptions within control of the players once the rally has started if the rules are applied 
This depends on the interpretation by the umpire of what constitutes a disturbance. Even though I don't think HH saying sorry here is enough of a disturbance, but a liberal interpretation by the umpire could think so and since that's beyond Lebesson's control, the umpire could call a let, but certainly not give the point outright to France (which is exactly what he did). Usually, the disturbance is a ball coming into the court.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2019 at 6:14pm
Lebesson does not mean "the kiss." And he was right to complain and win the point.
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