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Zhu Yuling's (basement) serves are illegal ??

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abdeen View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11/17/2019 at 11:16pm
Austrian Open
I have nothing against her (or for her) . Just neutral. 
When she starts the serve her hands (& ball) are inside the end line for every serve. 
To be dramatic, this is like a basement ping-pong player bringing the ball in hand cupped nesr a feet of the net and gently hitting it to just cross the net (like professional's  legal serve LOL)  
Once the hand starts moving, it indicates that the serve ha started (and in this case the ball and hand are inside the endline and thus rendering it illegal).
Now let use not start with nonsense about how she did not get any real advantage.
Surprised the umpire did not warn or call


2.6.4 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.


Usually the violation I see by most players at lower levels is for players to start the serve  with ball & hand below the level of the table and come up with hand and ball & throw it up 




Edited by abdeen - 11/17/2019 at 11:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2019 at 11:45pm
this rule book is just for marketing. the ball rotates everytime you throw it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 12:10am
Originally posted by bars bars wrote:

this rule book is just for marketing. .
There may be other rules like no modification of rubber (as in regluing or boosting)
to fool & mislead the IOC but I don't think this rule


Originally posted by bars bars wrote:

the ball rotates everytime you throw it up.

I believe any unintended & purposely created rotation is legal.

This is why they have the rule that states the ball should be in the flat (not cupped) palm and not on fingers. Yet most lower levels players serve of their fingers which creates rotation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 12:27am
she puts her body inside of the table, but the ball is just a little bit outside the white line.
watch this at 1:15




Edited by pingpungpeng - 11/18/2019 at 12:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 1:18am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

she puts her body inside of the table, but the ball is just a little bit outside the white line.
watch this at 1:15



It looks like the ball is above the line, but as she starts her serve she moves it behind the line.  I don't see any problem with the serve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 1:55am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

she puts her body inside of the table, but the ball is just a little bit outside the white line.
watch this at 1:15



It looks like the ball is above the line, but as she starts her serve she moves it behind the line.  I don't see any problem with the serve.

The serve starts as soon as the hand moves from stationary position. The stationary position was inside of the endline. It does not matter if it was just a nanosecond that it was inside the endline
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 1:56am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

she puts her body inside of the table, but the ball is just a little bit outside the white line.
watch this at 1:15

Look at all her serves. Not just 1. Almost every serve I saw the stationary hand starts from well inside the end line
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 2:14am
Originally posted by abdeen abdeen wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

she puts her body inside of the table, but the ball is just a little bit outside the white line.
watch this at 1:15

Look at all her serves. Not just 1. Almost every serve I saw the stationary hand starts from well inside the end line

2.6.4 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line

hand don't matta.
ball must be outside.

nobody's gonna measure with a caliper.
if ball is above white line or a tiny bit inside they probably won't say anything to her.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 11/18/2019 at 2:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 2:15am
At Austrian Open several pros started witth their ball hand on or slightly inside the endline.  I didn't see anyone get warned for it.

Qian Tianyi actually takes her hand back off the table and drops it to at or slightly below the tabletop.  She was warned once that I saw, in the quarters against Hayata.  She was back to the same motion vs Mima but wasn't warned again.  It didn't give her any advantage but I was surprised a CNT player would be allowed to develop an illegal motion like that, especially when it doesn't buy her anything.

IIRC ZYL got warned once vs Mima for a low toss.  


Edited by BRS - 11/18/2019 at 2:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 3:14am

[/QUOTE]
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

At Austrian Open several pros started witth their ball hand on or slightly inside the endline.  I didn't see anyone get warned for it.
So.......................  ?
Your point being ?



Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:


Qian Tianyi actually takes her hand back off the table
Service has therefore started from inside the endline


Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

She was earned once that I sae, against Hayata.
Good


Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

At She was back to the same motion vs Mima but wasn't warned again. 

Your point is ?

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

  It didn't give her any advantage but I was surprised a CNT player would be allowed to develop an illegal motion like that
Congratulations to CNT Embarrassed

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

  It didn't give her any advantage but I was surprised a CNT player would be allowed to develop an illegal motion like that, especially when it doesn't buy her anything.

Not upto the umpire to decide (if there is & if so how much advantage)


Edited by abdeen - 11/18/2019 at 4:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 4:25am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:


hand don't matta.
ball must be outside.


Ok I meant her palm. Her palm (where the ball rests) is inside the endline for almost every serve except one or two



Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:


nobody's gonna measure with a caliper.

It is not tiny bit inside. The whole palm (where the ball rests) is well inside the endline most of the time 


Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:


nobody's gonna measure with a caliper.

 Even if true, it is the responsibility of the player to ensure (s)he serves legally



Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

if ball is above white line or a tiny bit inside they probably won't say anything to her.

My point is that they should & that is the job of umpire.

Are you married or engaged to Zhu or (just stalking her) ? 
I did not mean to ruffle your feathers. Just kidding

 




Edited by abdeen - 11/18/2019 at 4:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 4:26am
The problem is ...............the OP does not comprehend simple English.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 4:56am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:


It looks like the ball is above the line, but as she starts her serve she moves it behind the line.  I don't see any problem with the serve.

That makes it illegal.

2.06 A good service
2.06.01 Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand.
2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards...

There is no rule 2.06.015 The server shall then move their hand around as they see fit until they decide to toss it.

We have had players faulted multiple times for moving their hand after presenting the ball but prior to projecting it upwards.

I remember this was discussed on the forums before when Tim Wang got called for this. Cant remember if it was nationals or teams trials. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 5:02am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

The problem is ...............the OP does not comprehend simple English.

Wow .............too many stalkers for Zhu.

Hope she loves all the attention
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 5:04am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

drops it to at or slightly below the tabletop.  



illegal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 5:10am
Originally posted by abdeen abdeen wrote:

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

The problem is ...............the OP does not comprehend simple English.

Wow .............too many stalkers for Zhu.

Hope she loves all the attention

Wtf are you talking about stalkers and attention?  You are the OP.  LOL. 

Point is, nobody except you cares if the hand starts on the endline.  If they enforced all the service rules every serve by every player is a fault, because none of them toss straight up.  They are all breaking the service rules, including your favorite player, no matter who that is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 5:15am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

The problem is ...............the OP does not comprehend simple English.

I do big time .  But I do comprehend table-tennis rules far better than someone who makes blanket personal attacks with no explanation or evidence and moderators like BAAL & HaggisV sit back and do absolutely nothing 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdeen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2019 at 5:16am
Originally posted by abdeen abdeen wrote:

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

The problem is ...............the OP does not comprehend simple English.

I do big time but fortunately I have little better sense of humor than a door knob &  I do comprehend table-tennis rules far better than someone who makes blanket personal attacks with no explanation or evidence and moderators like BAAL & HaggisV sit back and do absolutely nothing 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MelindaKBLS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/21/2019 at 1:39pm

 

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Wtf are you talking about stalkers and attention?  You are the OP.  LOL. 

If any the OP is actually complaining about Zhu’s serves . How does that make the OP the stalker ?  Love your twisted logic.   ROTFL

 

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Point is, nobody except you  

And you speak for the rest of the TT world ?

 

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

if the hand starts on the endline

Show in the OP where the OP says the hand start ON the endline ?  Even if it did that also is illegal. But the entire palm that holds the ball is well inside endline almost everytime. Look at attached pictures

 

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

If they enforced all the service rules every serve by every player is a fault, because none of them toss straight up.  They are all breaking the service rules,  

I guess the umpires should then ignore straight up cut & dry clear rules and make up rules on the fly as they go along ?  REALLY

What does not enforcing one type of violation (clear or borderline) has to do with enforcing another clear violation ?

 

 

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

, including your favorite player, no matter who that is.

 

Again how does that complaining about a player make that player the OPs favorite player ?

Using your logic you are my favorite person in the whole world  LOL

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/21/2019 at 2:06pm
Sorry, but nearly all pro players serve with an illegal way.
only Samsonov (every time perfect), Calderano when he throws with 5 meters high, Primorac backhand serves and the japanese defenders (Sato and Honoka)and most defenders...all the rest are illegal services.
Either the throw is not vertical, or the ball is not on the hand wide open, or something (head, arm, body...) hides the ball....


Edited by kakapo - 11/21/2019 at 2:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unspinned Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2019 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

Sorry, but nearly all pro players serve with an illegal way.
only Samsonov (every time perfect), Calderano when he throws with 5 meters high, Primorac backhand serves and the japanese defenders (Sato and Honoka)and most defenders...all the rest are illegal services.
Either the throw is not vertical, or the ball is not on the hand wide open, or something (head, arm, body...) hides the ball....

Hundreds of other illegal serve variations in other matches etc  and which ones  may be marginal and judgement calls have nothing to do with the specific issue of this thread. Umpire has no discretion in this specific case whatsoever, as Zhu is repeatedly is in clear violation of the service rule, as the pictures posted by someone here shows and almost every single serve by Zhu is grossly illegal.

Simply because nearly all pro players serve in some illegal fashion no way means they should not be called just because looks borderline legal or illegal. If most pro players will violate this (service) rule or any other rule but can be allowed to get away with it, why bother train, certify and hire umpires and have them travel half way around the world & pay them ?   



Edited by unspinned - 11/24/2019 at 5:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2019 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by abdeen abdeen wrote:

Originally posted by bars bars wrote:

this rule book is just for marketing. .
There may be other rules like no modification of rubber (as in regluing or boosting)
to fool & mislead the IOC but I don't think this rule


Originally posted by bars bars wrote:

the ball rotates everytime you throw it up.


I believe any unintended & purposely created rotation is legal.

This is why they have the rule that states the ball should be in the flat (not cupped) palm and not on fingers. Yet most lower levels players serve of their fingers which creates rotation


sure sure.

i could spin it from my flat palm.
its unatural to throw a ball w/o rotation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2019 at 3:15pm
Complaining about service base on the rule book black and white is like saying anyone who pass the speed limit should be ticketed. Unless you never ever pass the speed limit when driving, complain here is nothunf but hypocrisy. 
USATT: Current 2139 as of 11/2019
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2019 at 4:57pm
I think Abdeen is right, she tends to start with her cupped hand just over the white line at times

sidenote
I have always served from my fingers for 45 years
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