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1800 to 2000 USATT. Tips on my video

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Rahul_TT View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06/03/2013 at 2:52pm
I just broke 1800 USATT. I have been playing 11 years with most of the improvement coming in the last 2 years (gained about 180 rating points in my first year of playing tournaments here in the US). I am a two winged looper with a heavy spin based game. I have a very good blocking game and good serves. Also, I feel I have very good tactics. My weaknesses are movement, dependence on a big strokes meaning low recovery and ball placement.

I want to know what are the typical improvements one needs when going from 1800 to 2000. Also, what are the key differentiating factors between these two levels. 

Here is my video. I am in Red.




Edited by Rahul_TT - 06/03/2013 at 3:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LoopsALot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 3:10pm
Did you notice improvement in your game over the past year? Or could it be your rating finally caught up with your real level to begin with?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote michael4ster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 3:10pm
I like this question, I am 1800 also and would like to move to 2000. What do 2000 rating players have that 1800 players dont?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by Rahul_TT Rahul_TT wrote:

I want to know what are the typical improvements one needs when going from 1800 to 2000. Also, what are the key differentiating factors between these two levels. 

To a large extent, compartmentalizing general game quality & progression based on USATT levels is meaningless. If you post your game video here, you'll get lots of quality help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 3:45pm
Short answer:  Improve your BH, unless you are still a junior and can move around the table extremely fast to cover 70% of the table with your fh. 

Most adult 1800 level players have told me they definitely have "2000-level" forehand loops, but when I looked at them their fh loops are only "2000-level" if you feed them perfectly placed pushes and blocks, so they don't have to move much as their lateral movement is too slow for their level.  Also, their BH is usually nowhere near 2000-level, more like 1600 as compared to kids who are receiving top-notch coaching.  These amateur adult players can learn tons by watching Eugene Wang and Karakasevic's bh. 

The truth is for most adults and amateurs in general, BH should be the foundation for their game, but most coaches here in the U.S. still treat these players as promising cadets/juniors and drill their fh to death.  Trust me, if you want a long and prosperous TT career at the amateur level you should spend most of your free time learning your BH.




Edited by roundrobin - 06/03/2013 at 3:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rahul_TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by Rahul_TT Rahul_TT wrote:

I want to know what are the typical improvements one needs when going from 1800 to 2000. Also, what are the key differentiating factors between these two levels. 

To a large extent, compartmentalizing general game quality & progression based on USATT levels is meaningless. If you post your game video here, you'll get lots of quality help.

Added!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rahul_TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by LoopsALot LoopsALot wrote:

Did you notice improvement in your game over the past year? Or could it be your rating finally caught up with your real level to begin with?

A lot of improvement especially my fh and bh attack. Also short pushes. Mainly fh looping and bh looping are better now. I dont think its a case of rating catching up to my level at all because even my league ratings follow same pattern
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 4:45pm
the blue guy is really low rated. Cannot see ability to sustain attack. I have great opening loop but if you block it a couple of times almost certainly you win the point. My game is similar to yours and what I find I lack compared to a 2000 is ability to sustain rallies. The 2000 players don't die if you block them twice, and very often they can survive a poor serve receive with quality defense. I have very poor defense, and can't see yours from the video, cos the blue dude never managed to pass a loop over the net, but in general the 2000s make u earn every point. Very few unforced errors. U had a lot of misfires on the FH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 6:33pm
Nice vids!  Rahul I don't know if its just the matches you posted, but you seem really planted on your feet / stationary in the points I saw.  How's your footwork?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 7:24pm
more consistency, being able to anticipate the ball better.. and things such as movement seems a bit sluggish for someone of your build and like chronos said very planted. you need to try keep moving i guess
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 9:20pm
You don;t recover as fast as you should be and your linkage between FH loop and BH counter/loop should be better.
After hitting a good FH loop you should be able to recover and sustain at least a couple of more hits from either the BH or the FH.

Could you post a video where you play a higher rated player (2000-2200)? That would hep us scrutinize your defense and the quality of your loops (BH loops/opens in particular).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 9:44pm
Rahul_TT, you are self aware enough that you won't get any radical insights on your game. The quality of opposition does not do you justice. I think that one thing you should be looking for is a high level special weapon that your opponents run away from. You might have one, but your opponent was too weak to make you reveal it.

Practice generating power from the elbow and the wrist.  Shorten your motion on service return and see how that translates to the rest of your game.  You should be able to attack the serves you received with a smaller stroke on the forehand side.


Edited by NextLevel - 06/03/2013 at 9:55pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silva7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 10:34pm
i did not really see the other guy attack and when he did, you were not really prepared to block. how do you play when your opponent initiates the attack? your serves are mainly half long so for a decent player, it would be easy to loop, footwork is definitely a problem. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jasonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 10:54pm
Rahul, Thanks for the post.  Here are a couple of suggestions
1) Watch the serve, on short serves move in, on long serves attack (may need to take a step back to get full swing)
2) Your loops are too predictable translated to too easy to block.  You need to attack middle more or spread to your opponents weaker wing.
3) Bend your legs and stay on the ball of your feet.  This will add response time for you.  
4) Continue to use videos and critique.

Good luck, Jason
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/03/2013 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

...but when I looked at them their fh loops are only "2000-level" if you feed them perfectly placed pushes and blocks...
+1
 
Your loops aren't too bad but you preparation is very poor and when you do make the intial preparations you don't make the necessary subtle adjustments. Look at the second point of the first game (at 0.21) you serve and the remain upright ready to to a push off a long ball. You must serve and get ready to attack off every serve, not just every now and then. If the ball falls short then abort to a push or flick. Also, when you do prepare to attack the next ball it is never going to be in the right spot for you so you must adjust to the individual requirements of THAT ball. Every ball is different - you can't just have a one-swing-fits-all approach.  look at 1.06, 3.46, 4.25.

Other areas:

- you are very flat-flooted. keep your heels off the ground - even when doing the most basic exercises
- you invariably approach a serve to push it. Always approach a serve to loop it. If it goes short then it is easy to abort to a push or flick. 
- you should do lots and lots and lots of footwork practice. On an related issues, also practice transitioning from one shot to the next.
- you make way too many unforced errors and your shot selection is dodgy (this is related to the lack of preparation/adjustment discussed above)  

Sorry to be negative but the theme of the thread to is point out areas which need work so that you reach 2000. Basically I think you need to start doing some tough drilling.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/04/2013 at 11:37am
I think the blue guy is too low ranked for a player of your standard, you should be aiming to keep him from winning even 5 points for each game. 

Things i noticed:

1) Posture: I think you need to bend your knees slightly more (you're not that tall and therefore you don't need to bend your knees that much, but still, a little bend does wonders for your footwork and it enables you to feel your legs pushing off the ground with your loop)

2) Footwork. You don't recover from the serve immediately, you just kinda stand there upright and watch the ball (probably because the other player is not giving you enough trouble?). It should be a smooth 1-2 movement. Try using less arm and more waist when you're serving, it definitely helps a lot with the spin, control as well as recovery (when you move your waist you create a turning momentum which helps you get into position faster). 

3) You stand a bit too close to the table, I think a player with good quality long pushes would jam you quite badly. Try moving your right leg further back when receiving serves and move in more when you receive short serves.

4) In terms of your FH/BH strokes, you are still using too much arm backswing, you need to shorten it even more and use your waist/legs to directly guide your backswing. More body support behind each single loop would help you a lot in terms of power and consistency. In particular, I think your legwork is still not there yet. 

I like how you actually make an effort to apply heavy spin on the ball when pushing, keep it up! Your serves also look quite deceptive and tight, which is a really good thing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatorling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/04/2013 at 3:53pm
I really hate to agree with round robin on this..but it's the truth.
FH will get you winners, BH will keep you alive.
A very strong FH and a weak BH means you must have incredible fitness and excellent footwork as well as impeccable FH technique.

If however, your FH is "good" and your BH is excellent then you will have an overall stronger game.

I have a good FH and used to have a horrendous BH, now my BH is decent and because of that I've jumped 150 points. People used to always push deep to my BH or attack it and I'd always end up blocking..which would lead to a rally that I'd eventually lose. Now that I take the initiative, they are much more cautious about placing it to my BH..It really gives me many more opportunities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2013 at 8:35pm
Here's a simple thing that should help.  You need to work on your pushes.  It looks like you're trying to jab at or punch the pushes.  Simplify the stroke, shorten the take back.  Keep the stroke parallel to the table instead of pushing up or down.  Part of it is pushing longer balls that should be spun.  At 1800 you're better than me, but I see more quick room for improvement in short game than I do in improving your loop or even loop preparation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2013 at 8:57pm
improve your contact of the ball on your pushes and also i'm seeing you tend to jump when you attack. having your feet mid-air while contacting the ball lessens your power on the shots
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snerdly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2013 at 11:35pm
Many great tips have been provided here; be on the balls of your feet, not planted for your shots. Improve your BH.  Pushes should be parallel with the table.  You should tighten up your serves, though they are good; but especially tighten up your receives, you should rarely miss against a player of the level you were playing in this vid. Commit to the return of service seriously, it is a very important part of the game.
Make footwork the most important part of your looping game at this point, both FH and BH.  Your first loop is good, but you must be prepared to continue the attack to make good progress.

When my game was at about the same state as yours I began to use less power on loops and sought to use consistency, variation and placement, with an aim to play more loops in the rally in order to learn to play out points more strategically, and learn how to rally to win in longer points.
This can be a bit frustrating at first until you learn to follow the play and move well to the ball.  The benefits of this approach however, are tremendous.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 12:35am
BH is by far your biggest weakness.  Footwork can wait, improving that will just cause you to use your FH even more.  Trust me, having essentially zero capability to attack backspins to the BH side simply won't cut it against 2000+ level players.  After improving your BH, footwork would be next in line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snerdly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 2:19am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Footwork can wait, improving that will just cause you to use your FH even more.  

I agree that the BH opening is a big concern here, but by stating,

"Make footwork the most important part of your looping game at this point, both FH and BH."

I did not intend that Rahul_TT should attempt to use his FH more, quite the contrary, but that he should attempt to get in better position for his loops, as stated, for both FH and BH.  Even the BH opening against under spin requires acquiring proper footwork to get into position.  Focusing on improving positioning will help break the habit of being planted and unable to move smoothly for the next ball, forcing loops, and being predictable in his looping.



Edited by snerdly - 06/06/2013 at 3:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 8:26am
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Here's a simple thing that should help.  You need to work on your pushes.  It looks like you're trying to jab at or punch the pushes.  Simplify the stroke, shorten the take back.  Keep the stroke parallel to the table instead of pushing up or down.  Part of it is pushing longer balls that should be spun.  At 1800 you're better than me, but I see more quick room for improvement in short game than I do in improving your loop or even loop preparation.

If you watch ZJK, Ma Lin or Ryu Seung Min push, they seem like they're "jabbing" the ball with the bat pointing forwards, and for me that sort of technique allows me to reach shorter balls, and seem to generate more spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bonggoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

BH is by far your biggest weakness.  Footwork can wait, improving that will just cause you to use your FH even more.  Trust me, having essentially zero capability to attack backspins to the BH side simply won't cut it against 2000+ level players.  After improving your BH, footwork would be next in line.


I have to disagree with this. It is very hard to execute a proper loop (actually any stroke) without getting in the correct position. I've seen people with powerful FH and BH loops during regular drills that were reduced to pushing and blocking. They are unable to properly get into position because of poor footwork.



Edited by bonggoy - 06/06/2013 at 2:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by bonggoy bonggoy wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

BH is by far your biggest weakness.  Footwork can wait, improving that will just cause you to use your FH even more.  Trust me, having essentially zero capability to attack backspins to the BH side simply won't cut it against 2000+ level players.  After improving your BH, footwork would be next in line.


I have to disagree with this. It is very hard to execute a proper loop (actually any stroke) without getting in the correct position. I've seen people with powerful FH and BH loops during regular drills that were reduced to pushing and blocking. They are unable to properly get into position because of poor footwork.



You can cover lots of ground with a bh stance by primarily using your arm, upper body and waist rotation, with very little footwork.  Many Paralympic TT players do this, and some of them are rated as high as 2500.  I am not saying footwork is not important, but there are ways to go around poor footwork to still improve your level in a significant way.
Many standing disabled players simply use their lower body as a stable platform that glides around smoothly with minimum footwork... There's a lot to learn from these players for average Joe's who read this forum, imho, in addition to study and mimic what Ma Long and ZJK do.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rahul_TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 2:59pm
I see the point. I also feel that when I have a good BH, I can set up more plays. Also, it reduces the dependency on my already weak movement. No point denying the importance of footwork but for a vertically limited player like me, a strong BH would mean less shots that are hit on my wide open forehand..
So I think to some extent it depends on the make-up of a player also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Makelele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 3:31pm
So this deserves another useful thread, namely, how to develop a great backhand?Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ckhirnigs113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 3:35pm
Rahul_TT, I think we played each other last year in Decatur, AL if I remember correctly. From our match, I think footwork may have been your biggest problem. I remember you having pretty good loops, but I was able to get enough of them back that you eventually made a mistake. I think footwork was to blame. Even though your looping stroke is good, you will never be able to be consistent without getting your feet in the right position for every shot.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rahul_TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by ckhirnigs113 ckhirnigs113 wrote:

Rahul_TT, I think we played each other last year in Decatur, AL if I remember correctly. From our match, I think footwork may have been your biggest problem. I remember you having pretty good loops, but I was able to get enough of them back that you eventually made a mistake. I think footwork was to blame. Even though your looping stroke is good, you will never be able to be consistent without getting your feet in the right position for every shot.  

Hi Chris. Yes I remember that match. Thanks for your feedback.. I am beginning to blame my footwork for missing my forehands a lot. I have tried to work extensively on foot balance, weight transfer and body rotation but I see that if I am not in the right position, I am missing the shot.
Coming from someone I actually played, this is valuable. As is everything else in this thread. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Makelele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2013 at 4:43pm
Rahul, when I am about to receive a serve, I try to get on  Ithe balls of my feet with my upper body more forwards and I move my feet a bit. All this work for me as a reminder that I don't have to stay "heavy" on the floor and  that I must be ready to move my legs if I want to make a good stroke a very good one and a bad stroke a good one. Hope this helps.
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