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2300 Long Pips Pushblocker
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Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:



Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

So the conclusion is, LP is a weakness, al though some players manages to overcome this weakness. The reason LP (and anti, MP and even SP) are a weakness is because of their limitations. These rubbers can't do everything that a regular inverted rubber can do.
Inverted is a weakness, because it is incredibly sensitive to spin and lacks control. It can't do all the things a long pip rubber can do and thus are inferior due to their limitations.Also I would think given the video and the person commenting on the video nullifies your theory of strategies. Every stroke can be countered, it may require more thinking than just, "Well I just have to loop it harder" but you can figure out a way around it at almost any level, hence the existence of players such as your very own Akerstrom.


I love to watch fabian, but have you watched him lately? I would say that at least 75% of his shots are made with his inverted rubber.

No need to get offended about it, but inverted rubbers are the rubbers with the biggest potential, as they can create most variation.

I play with anti my self, and at my level, it works pretty well, but it's still a weakness that can be exploited by those who are familiar with it.
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Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:


LOL That's a hell of a thing to say. I guess all top players should start to use double pips...
LOL


It's a sarcastic reply to his claim that all pips are inferior and a weakness compared to inverted due to a couple weak playing characteristics, and don't forget that the time when we had a pip playing world champion was barely 10 years ago in men's and women's and nearly had it again in 2003. It was such a disadvantage for Guoliang that the ITTF banned his pips because they were clearly just too ineffective when he won the grand slam.
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Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:




Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:


LOL That's a hell of a thing to say. I guess all top players should start to use double pips...LOL
It's a sarcastic reply to his claim that all pips are inferior and a weakness compared to inverted due to a couple weak playing characteristics, and don't forget that the time when we had a pip playing world champion was barely 10 years ago in men's and women's and nearly had it again in 2003. It was such a disadvantage for Guoliang that the ITTF banned his pips because they were clearly just too ineffective when he won the grand slam.



I must admit that I forgot about Guliang, but still, he used SP and if you are going to be honest, which of the non regular inverted rubbers reminds most about the regular inverted rubbers? I would say SP.

We do have some rather good LP choppers as well, and for their style, LP is perfect, but it's still a weakness compared to inverted when it comes to ability.
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Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

I must admit that I forgot about Guliang, but still, he used SP and if you are going to be honest, which of the non regular inverted rubbers reminds most about the regular inverted rubbers? I would say SP.

We do have some rather good LP choppers as well, and for their style, LP is perfect, but it's still a weakness compared to inverted when it comes to ability.


Well with SP they have some inverted characteristics, but also go towards the main bonus of pip rubbers in that they are less sensitive to spin. There are still top pros who use short pips on forehand and backhand to attack with due to that, Zhan Jian uses them on the forehand, Tang Peng on the backhand, of course Johnny Huang used them on both, and there have been countless penholders using short pips and attacking well at the very highest levels. Joo showed a hint of what a top trained pro could do with long pips over the table in his match with Ryu goofing around, he did some crazy shots. Plus with medium pips, Fukuhara would be nothing without her backhand and Deng Yaping in the similar veign hit with them even more aggressively, though that style fits with the female style of play better.

Also with pips spin variation and deception is of course, much much higher.
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Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I think that the guy's opponent was not experienced against this style. I bet thay some 2000 to 2100 players ihn my club would easily beat that guy. However, that's mostly due to the fact that they play me all the time and are used to it. This guy's opponent did all the wrong things, spinning into the guy's slick pips..


This is kind of funny, cause when the same thing have been said about you and your game, you have said that it's your tactics that wins the match, while in this case, you seem to assume that it is the inexperience of the opponent?

I don't see much difference between your game and his, except for the stance.
There is no major difference between his game and mine except for strategy on when and where to place the ball. Again, the guy its definetely good but I think that I play strategicly better than him. it's not something that someone who is not a high level pushblocker would see.
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Originally posted by GoldenDragoon GoldenDragoon wrote:


Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I think that the guy's opponent was not experienced against this style. I bet thay some 2000 to 2100 players ihn my club would easily beat that guy. However, that's mostly due to the fact that they play me all the time and are used to it. This guy's opponent did all the wrong things, spinning into the guy's slick pips..
Why would spinning into the pips be a mistake? Not including twiddlers, I see pips as a weakness, not a strength. I haven't lost a game to a LP player for about a year, and most games were to players in a higher grade (when I fill in or play them on practice days). I continually attack their pips with topspin limiting the returns to slow travelling backspin. This gives me all the time in the world to setup for the next shot and loop drive everything that is high. I'm no expert but if I can exploit them at my level, any player who under sands the game should be able to exploit them against players on a similar level, even more so as most pips players I see would be nothing without their pips and are generally weak without the free points.
This guy's pips are obviously well worn, probably similar to mine and the reversal he is getting is more than you would usually find. Against this type of rubber, you will get most of your own spin back and the more you spin into those pips, the more soon you'll get back.
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I still say wear that (Bulgarian?) OX LP heavy-set dude out by making him huff and puff and do squats/inverted sit-up chasing and picking up ball and returning to play.
 
In Oliver's latest vid (at OOAK), he seems to be takng the ball later, much later, it seemed in order to get the ball higher to attack with pips some moar. That seemed to cost him the time he used to deprive his opponents and also reduced a little of his posible angles.
 
One major difference I saw in Olive's previous vids and this heavy anti-spin dude (using OX LP of course) is that Oliver used taking the ball off the bounce with his BH OX LP as a way to change tempo, make good angles, confuse the spin, and make players attack with lower percentage out of position rushed and on hte move. This dude which I will call Heavy-Anti-Spin (as opposed to Heavyspin, who is a major poster at About.com and is a high level inverted allround attacker), yeah this dude heavy-Anti-Spin parks himself at teh table and does not move PERIOD while Oliver crabs his way laterally all the time in a BH stance. H-A-S simple stands nuetral and uses his H for everything. He reaches, chicken wings - you name it. he also takes the ball al ittle early, but seems content to make his shots deep near endline and dare his opponents to attack. That works inhis local as the opponet is attack mad like rabid dog to his detriment.
 
The opponets who have faced Oliver before are much more aware of the pips and are a lot more patient to setup a higher percentage kill.
 
Eh, who cares? This Heavy Anti Spin dude seems to win his share of matches from his comps using his style and all his opponents are NOT 1500 USATT level chumps. (1500 USATT level is not a chump, but when facing a 2500 USATT player, anything below 2300 is likely a chump in all effectiveness)
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Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

I still say wear that (Bulgarian?) OX LP heavy-set dude out by making him huff and puff and do squats/inverted sit-up chasing and picking up ball and returning to play.
 
In Oliver's latest vid (at OOAK), he seems to be takng the ball later, much later, it seemed in order to get the ball higher to attack with pips some moar. That seemed to cost him the time he used to deprive his opponents and also reduced a little of his posible angles.
 
One major difference I saw in Olive's previous vids and this heavy anti-spin dude (using OX LP of course) is that Oliver used taking the ball off the bounce with his BH OX LP as a way to change tempo, make good angles, confuse the spin, and make players attack with lower percentage out of position rushed and on hte move. This dude which I will call Heavy-Anti-Spin (as opposed to Heavyspin, who is a major poster at About.com and is a high level inverted allround attacker), yeah this dude heavy-Anti-Spin parks himself at teh table and does not move PERIOD while Oliver crabs his way laterally all the time in a BH stance. H-A-S simple stands nuetral and uses his H for everything. He reaches, chicken wings - you name it. he also takes the ball al ittle early, but seems content to make his shots deep near endline and dare his opponents to attack. That works inhis local as the opponet is attack mad like rabid dog to his detriment.
 
The opponets who have faced Oliver before are much more aware of the pips and are a lot more patient to setup a higher percentage kill.
 
Eh, who cares? This Heavy Anti Spin dude seems to win his share of matches from his comps using his style and all his opponents are NOT 1500 USATT level chumps. (1500 USATT level is not a chump, but when facing a 2500 USATT player, anything below 2300 is likely a chump in all effectiveness)
If you can beat some 2500 players doesn't make you a 2500 player.. Last year, I beat 3 2400 players (one only got to 2388 because he was unreated and lost to me, so he didn't get his actual 2400 rating that he deserved.. (his best win was about 2480 and worst loss (other than me) was bout 2400).. 
Does that make me a 2400 player? Nope.. Table tennis is a lot about style and just like me, if he gets lucky to run into players who have a problem against this style, we can beat players who are much higher level than ourselves.. Look for example at Robert Shahnazari. He has beaten his share of 2500 players, yet, his rating only averages around mid 2200's.. He beat some 2500 players and gets to 2300 and even 2400 rating level and then he loses again to 2100 and 2200 players and gets back down to his actual level. Just like Robert and that guy in the video, I can beat players who are much better than me but that doesn't make me a player of that level. My 2309 rating is surely too high for my actual level. I play about low to mid 2200 level on a normal day  and can peak at around 2300 level on a good day but I can't consistently play at that level. At least not yet..
The last video that I posted on OOAk is not a typcal match. I was "forced" to take the ball later as the opponent placed the ball very well..  Well, he also played most balls very deep and didn't give me any short balls to work with.


Edited by Pushblocker - 03/11/2012 at 10:55pm
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Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

This guy's pips are obviously well worn, probably similar to mine...


This guy is well known for baking his pips into boiling oil. Sometimes they (the pips) just fall from the paddle because the glue can't hold the oily rubber. So... u said it.
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Originally posted by diabolo diabolo wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

This guy's pips are obviously well worn, probably similar to mine...


This guy is well known for baking his pips into boiling oil. Sometimes they (the pips) just fall from the paddle because the glue can't hold the oily rubber. So... u said it.


What are you talking about, he didn`t say anything about boiling his rubber in oil, this is lame accusation.

Edited by Rainer87 - 03/12/2012 at 4:05am
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He didn't say anything here, and yes, everybody knows that Vasko is cooking his LPs in boiling oil. Umpires and the federation are silent - this is the price for the show. You have to see his paddle - this is a piece of ancient sorcery art. Big smile

P.S. I have played him only once in a local tourney. This guy has bad habits indeed - he is catching the ball with his mouth, for one. Freud distinguished 3 psychosexual phases in the child's cognitive development - oral, anal, and phalic... Boiling the rubber corresponds to the anal phase. Wink

Edited by Imago - 03/12/2012 at 5:43am
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Originally posted by diabolo diabolo wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

This guy's pips are obviously well worn, probably similar to mine...


This guy is well known for baking his pips into boiling oil. Sometimes they (the pips) just fall from the paddle because the glue can't hold the oily rubber. So... u said it.
WOW, boiling oil... that's something new.. Never heared about that..  I know that people oil their pips to make them play more weird, but never heared about using boiling oil Shocked
The only time I ever boiled a rubber was in water in order to get that f'n sponge off a Butterfly Feing Long II.. However, it didn't work..


Edited by Pushblocker - 03/12/2012 at 7:21am
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Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:


Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

I must admit that I forgot about Guliang, but still, he used SP and if you are going to be honest, which of the non regular inverted rubbers reminds most about the regular inverted rubbers? I would say SP.

We do have some rather good LP choppers as well, and for their style, LP is perfect, but it's still a weakness compared to inverted when it comes to ability.
Well with SP they have some inverted characteristics, but also go towards the main bonus of pip rubbers in that they are less sensitive to spin. There are still top pros who use short pips on forehand and backhand to attack with due to that, Zhan Jian uses them on the forehand, Tang Peng on the backhand, of course Johnny Huang used them on both, and there have been countless penholders using short pips and attacking well at the very highest levels. Joo showed a hint of what a top trained pro could do with long pips over the table in his match with Ryu goofing around, he did some crazy shots. Plus with medium pips, Fukuhara would be nothing without her backhand and Deng Yaping in the similar veign hit with them even more aggressively, though that style fits with the female style of play better. Also with pips spin variation and deception is of course, much much higher.


Certainly not! Since pips have less ability to generate spin the inverted, then it is impossible to create more variation with pips then it is with inverted. Deception, well, that is more about the stroke then the rubber.
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you people mean to say that the fat guy's rating is 2300 US?
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Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:


Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

I must admit that I forgot about Guliang, but still, he used SP and if you are going to be honest, which of the non regular inverted rubbers reminds most about the regular inverted rubbers? I would say SP.

We do have some rather good LP choppers as well, and for their style, LP is perfect, but it's still a weakness compared to inverted when it comes to ability.
Well with SP they have some inverted characteristics, but also go towards the main bonus of pip rubbers in that they are less sensitive to spin. There are still top pros who use short pips on forehand and backhand to attack with due to that, Zhan Jian uses them on the forehand, Tang Peng on the backhand, of course Johnny Huang used them on both, and there have been countless penholders using short pips and attacking well at the very highest levels. Joo showed a hint of what a top trained pro could do with long pips over the table in his match with Ryu goofing around, he did some crazy shots. Plus with medium pips, Fukuhara would be nothing without her backhand and Deng Yaping in the similar veign hit with them even more aggressively, though that style fits with the female style of play better. Also with pips spin variation and deception is of course, much much higher.


Certainly not! Since pips have less ability to generate spin the inverted, then it is impossible to create more variation with pips then it is with inverted. Deception, well, that is more about the stroke then the rubber.
Agreed.  My position on Short Pips is very simple - you can't generate the spin of inverted with Short pips, so any inverted player who plays an SP player as if the pips are spin generating is falling into the trap.    No matter how much stronger an SP player is than you are, if you are an inverted player, attack every ball from the start and you will often be rewarded.
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Originally posted by xander7803 xander7803 wrote:

you people mean to say that the fat guy's rating is 2300 US?
 
No, 2300 RC. Smile
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what is RC Imago?
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Ratings Central, which is allegedly higher than USATT rating.
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Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

Originally posted by xander7803 xander7803 wrote:

you people mean to say that the fat guy's rating is 2300 US?
 
No, 2300 RC. Smile
I tried looking him up on RC but can't find anybody with the last name Yotovski
 
 
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We don't use USATT rating here in Bulgaria. All ratings are RC. As are most ratings in Austria.
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Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

We don't use USATT rating here in Bulgaria. All ratings are RC. As are most ratings in Austria.
I can't see his name on RC??
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He is not there. He would most probably get 2200-2300 judging from how he plays against those with established RC rating. The OP is himself an RC Director, so he would know how to prior rate him.
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I don't know how the rating system goes there but after watching the video twice I give the fat guy around 1800 CDN which is approx 1500 US. He has no FH, no footwork, only one type of serve which could be easily killed...oh he's playing pips! In my club in Toronto 80% of the players are pips and if you'd see them play compared to the fat guy you'll think they are 3000 rated players. Now if it was a food eating contest.....I am sure his rating would be higher!!!
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Originally posted by xander7803 xander7803 wrote:

I don't know how the rating system goes there but after watching the video twice I give the fat guy around 1800 CDN which is approx 1500 US. He has no FH, no footwork, only one type of serve which could be easily killed...oh he's playing pips! In my club in Toronto 80% of the players are pips and if you'd see them play compared to the fat guy you'll think they are 3000 rated players. Now if it was a food eating contest.....I am sure his rating would be higher!!!
Are you sure 1800 CND ~ 1500 US?  I thought it's the order way around, and the 2 rating actually equal at around 2100 or 2200.
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Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Certainly not! Since pips have less ability to generate spin the inverted, then it is impossible to create more variation with pips then it is with inverted. Deception, well, that is more about the stroke then the rubber.


If you play a topspin or backspin stroke with inverted, you get exactly what you see, but depending on what spin you were hitting with pips, you may get a very different spin back than what you'd expect, and there's no way any inverted has what one could call deception that you get from a pip.
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yes you are right mhnh007. i meant 1800 us and 1500 cdn
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I hope you will not bet 100 dollars on a USATT 1800 player against him. Wink
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Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:


Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Certainly not! Since pips have less ability to generate spin the inverted, then it is impossible to create more variation with pips then it is with inverted. Deception, well, that is more about the stroke then the rubber.
If you play a topspin or backspin stroke with inverted, you get exactly what you see, but depending on what spin you were hitting with pips, you may get a very different spin back than what you'd expect, and there's no way any inverted has what one could call deception that you get from a pip.


Ah, so you call spinreversal and inexperience against pips for deception? Then we have a different view on deception. Deception to me is the difference between what you do and what you make your opponent think you where doing.

I don't know if you are familiar with a "dummy loop"? It's a stroke that looks like a loop but carries almost no spin at all This is mostly played with inverted, and when done properly, it's a lot more deceptive then any pips shot I've faced. Pips have more limitations then inverted, thus making them a weakness that could and should be exploited, if you are able to. Not all players are able to do this, but that don't change the fact that pips are a weakness. NOTE! I'm not saying that using pips is a sign of weakness, neither that pips are used to cover up a weakness.
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Points: 344 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kickass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2012 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

NOTE! I'm not saying that using pips is a sign of weakness



Of course not. It's using Anti that's a sign of weakness.
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Points: 3405 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2012 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by kickass kickass wrote:


Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

NOTE! I'm not saying that using pips is a sign of weakness
Of course not. It's using Anti that's a sign of weakness.


Obviously
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