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Originally posted by Fabian1890 Fabian1890 wrote:

I think blahness has a point here. It's not just that he can get really low without having to twist his upper body (which is not healthy), he can also stay pretty parallel to the table, which helps him with his backhand play.

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.
thank you for that.

Injury prevention technique meets strategic necessities, life is beautiful when we know where to go and it's not only possible, it's the route that makes sense and it's all open, no excuse not to go there.

as side note "Injury prevention technique meets strategic necessities" is the general feel of blahness' endeavor in the coaching section, a twist he wants to push, it's where he wants to go. If somebody wants to carry the torch forwards, they should be encouraged. He does so with positive energy and what he does is better than the general nothingness that happens in the coaching section when he does not. Something right is better than nothing not wrong.
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Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

If it all was the same than before, maybe zjk would not have interrupted his career because aggravated (scrotum?) injury. What about Maze? and all those we don't know who broke themselves through injury inducing technique?

About the OP being a repeat: it is not true and it is hypocritical to say. Even if his approach was a repeat, which it is not, that would mean people can't approach a known topic topic with their own twist?
Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Well done blahness! feel complimented. Note that I do not see any wrong in people trying to tone you down, but when you see they don't attack or fight what you say but just the fact that you want to own your own twist, which you do, you can welcome it as pat in the back from your buddies which they are :).

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game.Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

It does make sense to applaud someone who does mostly what you do as well.  Comparing technique is natural,  but not grounding someone's technique in their fitness is often a result of not understanding technique. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Originally posted by Fabian1890 Fabian1890 wrote:

I think blahness has a point here. It's not just that he can get really low without having to twist his upper body (which is not healthy), he can also stay pretty parallel to the table, which helps him with his backhand play.

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.

So when you see Lin Gaoyuan doing the same thing, do you think of it as an alternative way to play or something that takes advantage of a certain level of fitness.  Does this just apply to underspin or does Harimoto loop topspin similarly?  Is blahness making these posts about Harimoto's loop or just his loop vs backspin?  




Edited by NextLevel - 07/02/2019 at 6:56am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I think it has always been standard to get low against backspin balls. Most amateur players don't get low enough because it's just too tiring to maintain. It also slows down you're recovery too much if you're not extremely fit. FZD also gets extremely long.

As for the waist bend, I think different balls call for slightly different situations. To me Xu Xin and Harimoto look like they're doing the same thing. Ma Long looks like he's looping a half long ball. The timing on that picture is different, so maybe if you had Ma Long doing the same stroke but at the end of his backswing instead of during the forward swing, it might look more similar?

It looks similar but the devil is in the details. With both methods you can  get to a low position, the question is how you get there. You can see very clearly how Ma Long's right waist is compressed, indicating a significant waist bend. Same with Xu Xin except it is hidden from view. 

With Harimoto's method which is akin to a split squat, you can in fact get much lower without any bending in the waist (in this position the left knee can touch the ground easily) because your knees are aligned with your torso in a straight line, ie the feet is rotated 90 deg to the table, same with the knee and the waist. Whereas with Ma Long and Xu Xin, their feet is rotated only about 60 degrees while their torso is rotated 90 degrees, with this difference you can't go so low, and because your centre of gravity is not in line with the knees there will be some degree of knee shear too. 

The other part of the equation to achieving this "split squat" position is a small angle difference between the left and right foot (the larger the angle the less low you can go without waist bending). 
. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke. 




Here is Lin Gaoyuan doing the same exact thing Harimoto is doing.  So did Lin Gaoyuan invent this technique too?  Or is he just good at getting low for maximum twist sometimes when he loops backspin.
This in fact is a good illustration of my point. LGY rotates his feet more than Ma Long/Xu Xin and therefore can get to a lower position.But still it is incomplete. It is a continuous spectrum...the more you rotate your feet and the lower the angle between your two feet, the lower you can get to the ground without bending waist. Of course ideally everything is in line, then you can loop underspin without the potentially harmful waist bending. 

Like I have said, this is standard technique and is what players try to achieve, because they don't complete the backswing on every shot does not mean that this is not what they train or intend. As to whether they need to complete it to avoid waist bending, I leave that to experts like you who seem to understand technique better than the people who actually practice it.

Ok...Mr know it all, you win! 

It is far from a competition ,  I am pretty transparent about what I ion ion who I work with.  It is just pretentious to make mountains out of subtle differences that you lack the empirical experience to make confident judgements about.

Basically when I coach, I try to teach the use of the body with hip rotation and a torso fold.  As mickd pointed put, each athlete will implement different degrees of both depending on their needs.  If someone has the fitness to it like Lin Gaoyuan, I don't call it a new technique.  I might argue he uses his body better.  But I don't see it as an alternative.

So it is just interesting to hear you make it sound like the newest thing on the block.  You just can't help yourself.  Am I a know it all for pointing out your obvious problem with making distinctions that don't have any basis in experience with advanced TT?


I did not say it was a "new technique" merely an alternative to illustrate how to approach getting low to loop underspin to reduce the amount of waist bending and knee shear.

Seriously, why are you here if there is nothing new under the sun and you have nothing to learn anymore?

I don't think my level is that much lower than yours,despite you loving to lord your 2000 rating and "advanced level" experience over other posters here.  

Harimoto does this on almost every forehand.  It is built into his base technique, and for most top players,  their loop vs backspin is just an extension of their base forehand technique where they use the body to lower the shoulder and arm and rotate it back and upwards into position.  I think it is important to distinguish  between the specific capabilities of a player vs considering a stroke technique different or special.  But that said maybe you are right.  Maybe this special approach for underspin should be taught so that it catches on.

My playing level is not high (I had auto immune arthritis and knee issues even before i started playing 8 yrs ago), but I have discussed these things with coaches and high level players a lot.  I do appreciate your taking responsibility for your game,  It is something that every adult learner should do.  But what should be done more carefully is using the internet to act as if every idea that comes from your head is a fact.  You have defended your opinion but I think you are trying to make it sound like Harimoto is doing something other than simply looping underspin using his base forehand.  To be fair, you have already tried to make out that Harimoto's base forehand is special,  So maybe that should be the topic though I don't get that either.

I personally have this natural aversion to making it sound like people are doing something special without talking about how their technique evolved.  I suspect that if Ma Long had a great backhand 7 years ago when he was using his off arm to do funky stuff, people would have made the use of his off arm a "new technique" for the backhand.  



Edited by NextLevel - 07/02/2019 at 7:13am
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

If it all was the same than before, maybe zjk would not have interrupted his career because aggravated (scrotum?) injury. What about Maze? and all those we don't know who broke themselves through injury inducing technique?

About the OP being a repeat: it is not true and it is hypocritical to say. Even if his approach was a repeat, which it is not, that would mean people can't approach a known topic topic with their own twist?
Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Well done blahness! feel complimented. Note that I do not see any wrong in people trying to tone you down, but when you see they don't attack or fight what you say but just the fact that you want to own your own twist, which you do, you can welcome it as pat in the back from your buddies which they are :).

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game.Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

It does make sense to applaud someone who does mostly what you do as well.  Comparing technique is natural,  but not grounding someone's technique in their fitness is often a result of not understanding technique. 
touché Ouch, indeed we have common traits.

I understand your point re. fitness. There is that video of zjk-jsh in slo mo where the chinese loops monster chops we amply commented on in the anton chigurh days. Not too hard to find something alike, there is that at 0.25 speed for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdjMpXahc-c&t=37 Big smile It's hard not to admire that looping style.
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Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I think it has always been standard to get low against backspin balls. Most amateur players don't get low enough because it's just too tiring to maintain. It also slows down you're recovery too much if you're not extremely fit. FZD also gets extremely long.

As for the waist bend, I think different balls call for slightly different situations. To me Xu Xin and Harimoto look like they're doing the same thing. Ma Long looks like he's looping a half long ball. The timing on that picture is different, so maybe if you had Ma Long doing the same stroke but at the end of his backswing instead of during the forward swing, it might look more similar?

It looks similar but the devil is in the details. With both methods you can  get to a low position, the question is how you get there. You can see very clearly how Ma Long's right waist is compressed, indicating a significant waist bend. Same with Xu Xin except it is hidden from view. 

With Harimoto's method which is akin to a split squat, you can in fact get much lower without any bending in the waist (in this position the left knee can touch the ground easily) because your knees are aligned with your torso in a straight line, ie the feet is rotated 90 deg to the table, same with the knee and the waist. Whereas with Ma Long and Xu Xin, their feet is rotated only about 60 degrees while their torso is rotated 90 degrees, with this difference you can't go so low, and because your centre of gravity is not in line with the knees there will be some degree of knee shear too. 

The other part of the equation to achieving this "split squat" position is a small angle difference between the left and right foot (the larger the angle the less low you can go without waist bending). 
. That means even the left foot has to rotate with the right foot during both the backswing and the stroke. 


Are you referring to having both feet pointing in the same direction (to the side) like the split squat image you linked above?

I think it'll be really hard to transfer your weight forward into your opposite playing foot if you had them both pointing in the same direction like that. If you did manage to do it, your non-playing leg foot will probably have to rotate to be facing forward during the stroke. Harimoto still has his left foot facing diagonally forward. Xu Xin has it (his right) facing a little more forward, and we can't see Ma Long's feet in the third picture.

I think your playing foot should be pointing sideways like the split squat, which Harimoto and Xu Xin both have in the pictures above. But your non-playing foot should be pointed more forward. And you should be folding your body over your leg (like a bow, though I think for injury prevention you're advocating not to lean as well as bow here?) to transfer all your weight to that side.

I could be missing it, though! There are slight differences, but I see the same key ingredients in all their strokes.

Getting low would also be influenced by the height and length of the incoming ball, the timing you're planning to hit it, your current position, and the type of ball you're going to play.

I'm thinking the underlying principle I'm seeing from this thread is to get low. Having a wider stance also makes getting lower easier (which the split squat definitely has). Your success could be attributed to getting lower than you usually do. I used to try and get super low, but I was never able to commit it to muscle memory!

No not really but closer in angle rather than say 90 deg (left leg at 12 o'clock and right leg at 3oclock). And yes with this method both feet have to rotate. Right foot goes from roughly 3 o'clock to 1oclock and left foot goes from 2oclock to 12oclock. 
The CNT players all have slightly different technique but generally they have their right leg roughly around 2oclock and left leg around 12 oclock, then they compress their right waist to get low. 
Although these may be "slight" differences but because of biomechanics it makes a world of difference. Harimoto's method simply allows you to get really low easily without compressing the right waist, which is the key point I am making. 
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Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

If it all was the same than before, maybe zjk would not have interrupted his career because aggravated (scrotum?) injury. What about Maze? and all those we don't know who broke themselves through injury inducing technique?

About the OP being a repeat: it is not true and it is hypocritical to say. Even if his approach was a repeat, which it is not, that would mean people can't approach a known topic topic with their own twist?
Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Well done blahness! feel complimented. Note that I do not see any wrong in people trying to tone you down, but when you see they don't attack or fight what you say but just the fact that you want to own your own twist, which you do, you can welcome it as pat in the back from your buddies which they are :).

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game.Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

Thanks fatt for the appreciation. I don't have a problem with the majority of the forum, except for NextLevel. He doesn't post technique threads for sharing himself, but whenever something pops up he's suddenly very motivated to post all kinds of unpleasant and negative posts. Any attempts to debate, becomes a session where he attempts to use his "superior rating","high level TT experience" to try to get other people to shut up. To be honest many banned members behave better than him including berndt_mann who was at least quite humorous. Also it's funny that NextLevel freely admitted that his lower back gets very sore when going low to loop frequently, and still doesn't see the point of this thread....

Edit: Also it's pretty funny when he's saying it's a fitness issue, it's not. A split squat that gets your left knee to the ground is incredibly easy to do compared to the alternative.


Edited by blahness - 07/02/2019 at 8:07am
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Fabian1890 Fabian1890 wrote:

I think blahness has a point here. It's not just that he can get really low without having to twist his upper body (which is not healthy), he can also stay pretty parallel to the table, which helps him with his backhand play.

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.

So when you see Lin Gaoyuan doing the same thing, do you think of it as an alternative way to play or something that takes advantage of a certain level of fitness.  Does this just apply to underspin or does Harimoto loop topspin similarly?  Is blahness making these posts about Harimoto's loop or just his loop vs backspin?  



I don’t think that this technique is super important for looping backspin. The „revolutionary” part is that he can stand pretty parallel and still do a proper weight transfer plus it is less hurtful for the body. It does not make looping under spin easier imho, it just stops you from compressing your spine. Same goes for LGY although it’s less prominent in his stroke. Especially with the plastic balls where it’s more important to stand close to the table, this technique might help you a lot to play quick BH shots.
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Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

If it all was the same than before, maybe zjk would not have interrupted his career because aggravated (scrotum?) injury. What about Maze? and all those we don't know who broke themselves through injury inducing technique?

About the OP being a repeat: it is not true and it is hypocritical to say. Even if his approach was a repeat, which it is not, that would mean people can't approach a known topic topic with their own twist?
Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Well done blahness! feel complimented. Note that I do not see any wrong in people trying to tone you down, but when you see they don't attack or fight what you say but just the fact that you want to own your own twist, which you do, you can welcome it as pat in the back from your buddies which they are :).

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game.Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

Thanks fatt for the appreciation. I don't have a problem with the majority of the forum, except for NextLevel. He doesn't post technique threads for sharing himself, but whenever something pops up he's suddenly very motivated to post all kinds of unpleasant and negative posts. Any attempts to debate, becomes a session where he attempts to use his "superior rating","high level TT experience" to try to get other people to shut up. To be honest many banned members behave better than him including berndt_mann who was at least quite humorous. Also it's funny that NextLevel freely admitted that his lower back gets very sore when going low to loop frequently, and still doesn't see the point of this thread....

Edit: Also it's pretty funny when he's saying it's a fitness issue, it's not. A split squat that gets your left knee to the ground is incredibly easy to do compared to the alternative.
He is far closer to be your friend than the alternative, he even left an opening above ("But that said maybe you are right. Maybe this special approach for underspin should be taught so that it catches on.") 
I think he wants above all to keep things within contexts so we do not get carried away and we do not disconnect ourselves from reality, which is a big risk on online forums. On a tt forum the danger is even bigger because there is an ideal technique and there is what the student is capable to do, those 2 can be so far apart sometimes a careful personalized route must be defined. That's NL's his big thing and he is a good guardian of that discipline in posting about technique. I must say his thinking and writing are a joy even if they can bite me sometimes. Doomed with him, doomed without him, yo!!!
Short story short, you 2 are obviously a nice team to keep a whole making sense, with sound boundaries and all factors checked. 
stiltt? I should have gone for pissmaker, I mean peacemaker.
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Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Frankly I applaud blahness for stirring ideas with precise emphasis on certain aspects of the game.

If it all was the same than before, maybe zjk would not have interrupted his career because aggravated (scrotum?) injury. What about Maze? and all those we don't know who broke themselves through injury inducing technique?

About the OP being a repeat: it is not true and it is hypocritical to say. Even if his approach was a repeat, which it is not, that would mean people can't approach a known topic topic with their own twist?
Carl Sagan made wonderful space tv shows. So we could not do it again? it happens all the time in all domains. How about no more books about the French revolution because there are plenty already?

Well done blahness! feel complimented. Note that I do not see any wrong in people trying to tone you down, but when you see they don't attack or fight what you say but just the fact that you want to own your own twist, which you do, you can welcome it as pat in the back from your buddies which they are :).

Thanks for your mini series about injury prevention technique at the service of a sustainable and dominant game.Big smile

Encouragements! Clap

Thanks fatt for the appreciation. I don't have a problem with the majority of the forum, except for NextLevel. He doesn't post technique threads for sharing himself, but whenever something pops up he's suddenly very motivated to post all kinds of unpleasant and negative posts. Any attempts to debate, becomes a session where he attempts to use his "superior rating","high level TT experience" to try to get other people to shut up. To be honest many banned members behave better than him including berndt_mann who was at least quite humorous. Also it's funny that NextLevel freely admitted that his lower back gets very sore when going low to loop frequently, and still doesn't see the point of this thread....

Edit: Also it's pretty funny when he's saying it's a fitness issue, it's not. A split squat that gets your left knee to the ground is incredibly easy to do compared to the alternative.

Hmm interesting statement about my lower back.  My lower back is not that much worse than any TT player IMO, rheumatoid arthritis issues aside.  Your post is interesting so allow me to reintroduce myself.

Discussing technique and claiming how wonderfully one plays without presenting your own play leads to a distorted view of what playing table tennis is like.  I will charitably accept without seeing your play that your playing level is close to mine, more so because mine is not that high.   But discussing how to play without talking honestly about your experience gives people a distorted view of TT.   

Most of my discussions and analysis of technique are on other forums.  I have a whole blog on ooakforum about how my forehand evolved and I could and should post to it again more since I learned to appreciate multiball recently.  I also post in discussions on TTEDGE member videos.  I post on TTD because over there, people have a community so they are less inclined to talk about how much they know without sharing something about how they know it.  Some people do try to do it and my response to them is similar to my response to you.  It is easy to talk about table tennis when one doesn't get into the demands technique places on your body.  Far more realistic to talk about what people are trying to do and how the body enables them to do it but if you speak with your own video,  you can sometimes see where the compromises must be found. There is also a humility that is lacking when talking about fitness which tends to stop when people post their own video.

Here is my video of my trying to take underspin in multiball. As bad as my technique looks with the lower body, it may surprise you that in my head, I am trying to do * exactly* what Harimoto is doing and falling way short because I learned for too long to play with my upper arm and I don't have anything close to the athleticism given arthritic joints all over the body.  If I hit one ball the way he does my right knee will just fall apart for a week.  The multiball feed isn't great either but that is the limitation of playing in a club where most of us have non standard TT backgrounds.  I might also just not be good at TT and that is fair.   But my athletic peak in terms of physical health merging with TT was 2014 and I didn't understand technique back then so I threw away quite a few of my best years (my knees were crappy back them too though).  Ever since 2017 , it has been mostly down hill but I understand the sport better but since I can't move I can't play my true game. 


But if you want to discuss the basics of forehand loop vs underspin, we can talk about it.  It is one of my shots relative to my level though my forehand sucks in general general because I lack the mobility to support it.

But I can't look at how Harimoto plays a loop vs underspin and separate it from his looping technique in general.  Most of the elements you think are special are largely found in his looping technique as a whole.
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Originally posted by Fabian1890 Fabian1890 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Fabian1890 Fabian1890 wrote:

I think blahness has a point here. It's not just that he can get really low without having to twist his upper body (which is not healthy), he can also stay pretty parallel to the table, which helps him with his backhand play.

Having your right foot behind hurts your backhand play, this helps him to counter with his BH much faster on the next shot because his right foot is closer to the table.

I hold two coaching licenses and I think I know a bit about table tennis.

So when you see Lin Gaoyuan doing the same thing, do you think of it as an alternative way to play or something that takes advantage of a certain level of fitness.  Does this just apply to underspin or does Harimoto loop topspin similarly?  Is blahness making these posts about Harimoto's loop or just his loop vs backspin?  



I don’t think that this technique is super important for looping backspin. The „revolutionary” part is that he can stand pretty parallel and still do a proper weight transfer plus it is less hurtful for the body. It does not make looping under spin easier imho, it just stops you from compressing your spine. Same goes for LGY although it’s less prominent in his stroke. Especially with the plastic balls where it’s more important to stand close to the table, this technique might help you a lot to play quick BH shots.

My point is that this is built into Harimoto's and LGY's basic loop form and they are mostly looping the ball like everyone else does.  Maybe blahness should post the full video of Harimoto looping so we can see whether he is using his back that much. The other thing to remember is that Harimoto is not yet considered a threat against choppers so what does this really prove? I know it is age and strength related so I am just trying to keep things in perspective. But I suspect that as he gets stronger in his upper body (as all men should with age) he will look more traditional on these strokes but his ability to get low will remain the same.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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NextLevel sounds like a toxic and bitter guy who just spends all day long trolling in TT forums and has just nothing valuable to add other than continually putting down other people's posts and work. 

He doesn't seem to know much about biomechanics but yet feels the need to show his ignorance again and again. He doesn't use the same mechanics as Harimoto does despite his wishful thinking, it's mostly powered by his lower back torquing and bending, maybe because he has even poorer mobility than even mjamja who btw is a much more positive poster. He didnt even understand the difference between lumbar and thoracic rotation which I thought was fairly simple, so of course to him these angle differences in the feet which is even more subtle would have been entirely lost because in his simplistic brain it's just the same ie getting low.

I wish there was a way to block someone else's posts here in this forum. I can stop seeing his toxic posts and he can stop seeing my posts which apparently triggers him because he can't stand someone stealing his spotlight. But it's fine, I will simply no longer respond to any of NextLevels posts anymore from now on. I actually have better things to do in my life. 
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I am glad that you clarified in an earlier post that your musings are intended for a more biomechanically sound or healthier way to play. My impression was that these were ways to improve your game, and I think most readers would have gotten that impression. So perhaps it is a good idea to put that stipulation in your original post, for people's awareness.

I understand you may not like Next's tone. But I think he makes a fair point. I have been fortunate to have exposure to many high level players and coaches and I have never seen any focus so much on specific musculoskeletal nuances as much as you do - so it is not unreasonable for someone to give pause. I'm not sure what your end goal of these series of posts are, but if your goal is to win converts or really show the advantages of these techniques, that is where I think posting video of either you or students would help, rather than trying to glean deep underlying things from screenshots of videos of pros. Not feeling comfortable in sharing video makes sense, but I'd be curious to take a look if you privately messaged it - perhaps there are applications of these techniques happening that I am not imagining.
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With the hips completely squared to and back foot pointing to the hitting side in the backswing, it feels unnatural to rotate into the shot without a lot of pivoting on the balls of your feet. And pivot you shall or you're fighting against yourself and hurting your knees. Getting into and out of such an extreme position takes more time.
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dude, I don't see much toxicity in any of the posts except for the ones that you're trying to call him out on for just bringing his side of the discussion to the forum, which what a forum is meant to be...

that being said, I'm big into lumbar flexion (or avoiding it) due to previous injuries tt related and weight-training related so I always like this topic being discussed on the forum Thumbs Up

I also trained with NL when I visited his home-club like... at this point maybe 3 years ago? my forehand still sucks and I still don't "know" my stroke as NL said lol. real life just gets in the way of pong life... 

c'est la vie
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For the record, I largely enjoy both NL and Blahness's posts but not all of them.  I just skim over the ones I don't.  I think I understand the mechanics of how this thread got out of hand - I suspect it is something that was brewing before.  Perhaps just ignoring posts from certain member or reply with "ignored" or something similar will be best.
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The least I can say is NextLevel's toxicity is the most civilized in the universe style wise; it's also some kind of medication, similar to the seed inside the apricot pit, too much is poison but get a little and it will cure stuff off.
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Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

With the hips completely squared to and back foot pointing to the hitting side in the backswing, it feels unnatural to rotate into the shot without a lot of pivoting on the balls of your feet. And pivot you shall or you're fighting against yourself and hurting your knees. Getting into and out of such an extreme position takes more time.



Agreed and it's something to consider and perhaps work on. 
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Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I am glad that you clarified in an earlier post that your musings are intended for a more biomechanically sound or healthier way to play. My impression was that these were ways to improve your game, and I think most readers would have gotten that impression. So perhaps it is a good idea to put that stipulation in your original post, for people's awareness.

I understand you may not like Next's tone. But I think he makes a fair point. I have been fortunate to have exposure to many high level players and coaches and I have never seen any focus so much on specific musculoskeletal nuances as much as you do - so it is not unreasonable for someone to give pause. I'm not sure what your end goal of these series of posts are, but if your goal is to win converts or really show the advantages of these techniques, that is where I think posting video of either you or students would help, rather than trying to glean deep underlying things from screenshots of videos of pros. Not feeling comfortable in sharing video makes sense, but I'd be curious to take a look if you privately messaged it - perhaps there are applications of these techniques happening that I am not imagining.
The coaches are paid or trained to maximize performance and typically do not care about healthy or sustainable technique. They have also been trained in a certain way and typically just coach whatever they've learnt. Unfortunately as a result the majority of TT players get injuries sooner or later, both in the professional world as well as the amateur world. Injuries are a big taboo. No one wants to talk about them, but they do happen frequently, and it's often because of injurious movements repeated over many millions of times. In engineering we call it fatigue failure, and it happens in many materials too.

It is the same in high level piano, many players get injured because it's all about playing faster and louder and no one cares much about how they were playing as long as they get results. Any mention of more sustainable biomechanics gets sneers from players who go "this is how I've played my whole life" or "everyone does the same thing", "nah I'm fine, see?". I have had bad injuries before and I have learnt a lot from them. As amateurs we are not making a living from playing and if playing occurs at a cost to health you have to ask if there's a better way...

I am not trying to win over anyone but simply sharing what I learnt. I don't have students, but rather a few training partners where we improve together. I learnt much from them too. I do not profit whatsoever by any of these postings...I have much better ways of earning money....
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Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I am glad that you clarified in an earlier post that your musings are intended for a more biomechanically sound or healthier way to play. My impression was that these were ways to improve your game, and I think most readers would have gotten that impression. So perhaps it is a good idea to put that stipulation in your original post, for people's awareness.

I understand you may not like Next's tone. But I think he makes a fair point. I have been fortunate to have exposure to many high level players and coaches and I have never seen any focus so much on specific musculoskeletal nuances as much as you do - so it is not unreasonable for someone to give pause. I'm not sure what your end goal of these series of posts are, but if your goal is to win converts or really show the advantages of these techniques, that is where I think posting video of either you or students would help, rather than trying to glean deep underlying things from screenshots of videos of pros. Not feeling comfortable in sharing video makes sense, but I'd be curious to take a look if you privately messaged it - perhaps there are applications of these techniques happening that I am not imagining.
The coaches are paid or trained to maximize performance and typically do not care about healthy or sustainable technique. They have also been trained in a certain way and typically just coach whatever they've learnt. Unfortunately as a result the majority of TT players get injuries sooner or later, both in the professional world as well as the amateur world. Injuries are a big taboo. No one wants to talk about them, but they do happen frequently, and it's often because of injurious movements repeated over many millions of times. In engineering we call it fatigue failure, and it happens in many materials too.

It is the same in high level piano, many players get injured because it's all about playing faster and louder and no one cares much about how they were playing as long as they get results. Any mention of more sustainable biomechanics gets sneers from players who go "this is how I've played my whole life" or "everyone does the same thing", "nah I'm fine, see?". I have had bad injuries before and I have learnt a lot from them. As amateurs we are not making a living from playing and if playing occurs at a cost to health you have to ask if there's a better way...

I am not trying to win over anyone but simply sharing what I learnt. I don't have students, but rather a few training partners where we improve together. I learnt much from them too. I do not profit whatsoever by any of these postings...I have much better ways of earning money....


That is good and well, then in that case you should preface your posts with a warning that this is a theory that is intended for the betterment of future health, and may be detrimental to one's table tennis game, and also that you are not a doctor (unless you are).
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Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

dude, I don't see much toxicity in any of the posts except for the ones that you're trying to call him out on for just bringing his side of the discussion to the forum, which what a forum is meant to be...

that being said, I'm big into lumbar flexion (or avoiding it) due to previous injuries tt related and weight-training related so I always like this topic being discussed on the forum Thumbs Up

I also trained with NL when I visited his home-club like... at this point maybe 3 years ago? my forehand still sucks and I still don't "know" my stroke as NL said lol. real life just gets in the way of pong life... 

c'est la vie

I'm fine if he disagrees with me. The problem is that eventually he stops debating and starts ad hominem attacks in a passive aggressive way, which admittedly triggers me, even more so than people who use foul language....

He might be a more pleasant guy in real life but from his postings he's like the funkiller at parties....
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Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I am glad that you clarified in an earlier post that your musings are intended for a more biomechanically sound or healthier way to play. My impression was that these were ways to improve your game, and I think most readers would have gotten that impression. So perhaps it is a good idea to put that stipulation in your original post, for people's awareness.

I understand you may not like Next's tone. But I think he makes a fair point. I have been fortunate to have exposure to many high level players and coaches and I have never seen any focus so much on specific musculoskeletal nuances as much as you do - so it is not unreasonable for someone to give pause. I'm not sure what your end goal of these series of posts are, but if your goal is to win converts or really show the advantages of these techniques, that is where I think posting video of either you or students would help, rather than trying to glean deep underlying things from screenshots of videos of pros. Not feeling comfortable in sharing video makes sense, but I'd be curious to take a look if you privately messaged it - perhaps there are applications of these techniques happening that I am not imagining.
The coaches are paid or trained to maximize performance and typically do not care about healthy or sustainable technique. They have also been trained in a certain way and typically just coach whatever they've learnt. Unfortunately as a result the majority of TT players get injuries sooner or later, both in the professional world as well as the amateur world. Injuries are a big taboo. No one wants to talk about them, but they do happen frequently, and it's often because of injurious movements repeated over many millions of times. In engineering we call it fatigue failure, and it happens in many materials too.

It is the same in high level piano, many players get injured because it's all about playing faster and louder and no one cares much about how they were playing as long as they get results. Any mention of more sustainable biomechanics gets sneers from players who go "this is how I've played my whole life" or "everyone does the same thing", "nah I'm fine, see?". I have had bad injuries before and I have learnt a lot from them. As amateurs we are not making a living from playing and if playing occurs at a cost to health you have to ask if there's a better way...

I am not trying to win over anyone but simply sharing what I learnt. I don't have students, but rather a few training partners where we improve together. I learnt much from them too. I do not profit whatsoever by any of these postings...I have much better ways of earning money....


That is good and well, then in that case you should preface your posts with a warning that this is a theory that is intended for the betterment of future health, and may be detrimental to one's table tennis game, and also that you are not a doctor (unless you are).

What is this, a law forum where every disclaimer has to be put down? Also I disagree that it's detrimental to table tennis game, because my partner's and myself have improved quite a bit with some of these stuff. 
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Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I am glad that you clarified in an earlier post that your musings are intended for a more biomechanically sound or healthier way to play. My impression was that these were ways to improve your game, and I think most readers would have gotten that impression. So perhaps it is a good idea to put that stipulation in your original post, for people's awareness.

I understand you may not like Next's tone. But I think he makes a fair point. I have been fortunate to have exposure to many high level players and coaches and I have never seen any focus so much on specific musculoskeletal nuances as much as you do - so it is not unreasonable for someone to give pause. I'm not sure what your end goal of these series of posts are, but if your goal is to win converts or really show the advantages of these techniques, that is where I think posting video of either you or students would help, rather than trying to glean deep underlying things from screenshots of videos of pros. Not feeling comfortable in sharing video makes sense, but I'd be curious to take a look if you privately messaged it - perhaps there are applications of these techniques happening that I am not imagining.
The coaches are paid or trained to maximize performance and typically do not care about healthy or sustainable technique. They have also been trained in a certain way and typically just coach whatever they've learnt. Unfortunately as a result the majority of TT players get injuries sooner or later, both in the professional world as well as the amateur world. Injuries are a big taboo. No one wants to talk about them, but they do happen frequently, and it's often because of injurious movements repeated over many millions of times. In engineering we call it fatigue failure, and it happens in many materials too.

It is the same in high level piano, many players get injured because it's all about playing faster and louder and no one cares much about how they were playing as long as they get results. Any mention of more sustainable biomechanics gets sneers from players who go "this is how I've played my whole life" or "everyone does the same thing", "nah I'm fine, see?". I have had bad injuries before and I have learnt a lot from them. As amateurs we are not making a living from playing and if playing occurs at a cost to health you have to ask if there's a better way...

I am not trying to win over anyone but simply sharing what I learnt. I don't have students, but rather a few training partners where we improve together. I learnt much from them too. I do not profit whatsoever by any of these postings...I have much better ways of earning money....


That is good and well, then in that case you should preface your posts with a warning that this is a theory that is intended for the betterment of future health, and may be detrimental to one's table tennis game, and also that you are not a doctor (unless you are).

What is this, a law forum where every disclaimer has to be put down? Also I disagree that it's detrimental to table tennis game, because my partner's and myself have improved quite a bit with some of these stuff. 


Why so harsh?

In your previous posts addressed to me, you played it off as this being a "healthy, more biomechanically sound" alternative. Now you are implying it is a legitimate coaching strategy. Which one is it? If you are taking this new, highly biomechanical approach to TT that seems largely unheard of amongst advanced coaching and playing circles, it would be nice to be able to attribute more success than "taking a few more points off university B level players" to your new approach. As mentioned above, those improvements you mentioned are likely due to just playing the game more rather than what you think your theories improved. When you have made many comments picking apart the games of the world's best players, concluding this and that, you should expect for people to give you a little push back when they find out you are essentially an intermediate club level player. Rather than calling everyone toxic who pushes back, you could do more to provide some further support to your bold claims. As others have mentioned, that is kind of the point of a forum. Disagreement is not toxicity.


Edited by bard romance - 07/02/2019 at 7:17pm
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For a little further context of what I'm referring to - for most players, strictly thinking about how to execute a shot or play from a body mechanics/perfect form/technique standpoint, is generally not a recipe for success. There are lots of variations on what constitutes an effective stroke, with a few common themes and key elements. So long as you are checking off those boxes, it would be much better to do what you're doing and work within yourself rather than getting into a frame of mind of "perfect biomechanics" for every shot. Countless times I see players stuck at lower or intermediate levels obsessing over the form of the shot, thinking its why they've always missed. It's not.

It is easy to see how someone reading these posts can go down this rabbit hole. Hence why I've presented an alternate perspective.


Edited by bard romance - 07/02/2019 at 7:18pm
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Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

For a little further context of what I'm referring to - for most players, strictly thinking about how to execute a shot or play from a body mechanics/perfect form/technique standpoint, is generally not a recipe for success. There are lots of variations on what constitutes an effective stroke, with a few common themes and key elements. So long as you are checking off those boxes, it would be much better to do what you're doing and work within yourself rather than getting into a frame of mind of "perfect biomechanics" for every shot. Countless times I see players stuck at lower or intermediate levels obsessing over the form of the shot, thinking its why they've always missed. It's not.

It is easy to see how someone reading these posts can go down this rabbit hole. Hence why I've presented an alternate perspective.

I have no beef with you whatsoever. I have a problem with NextLevel and his passive aggressive brand of personal attacks. Again, any educated person will judge for himself and herself what is good for their own game. Match performance is a complicated thing and I'm not concentrating on it, but you can't say that it's going to be a negative impact on someone's game without actually putting forward the actual reasons. I understand your reasons to disagree and I will defend your right to disagree. Cheers!
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Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

For a little further context of what I'm referring to - for most players, strictly thinking about how to execute a shot or play from a body mechanics/perfect form/technique standpoint, is generally not a recipe for success. There are lots of variations on what constitutes an effective stroke, with a few common themes and key elements. So long as you are checking off those boxes, it would be much better to do what you're doing and work within yourself rather than getting into a frame of mind of "perfect biomechanics" for every shot. Countless times I see players stuck at lower or intermediate levels obsessing over the form of the shot, thinking its why they've always missed. It's not.

It is easy to see how someone reading these posts can go down this rabbit hole. Hence why I've presented an alternate perspective.

I have no beef with you whatsoever. I have a problem with NextLevel and his passive aggressive brand of personal attacks. Again, any educated person will judge for himself and herself what is good for their own game. Match performance is a complicated thing and I'm not concentrating on it, but you can't say that it's going to be a negative impact on someone's game without actually putting forward the actual reasons. I understand your reasons to disagree and I will defend your right to disagree. Cheers!


There are more people than you think that actually cannot judge what is good for their game. And lots of people who think they can that are wrong. That is where I am trying to raise some concerns. That said, what good does this really do if you aren't concentrating on match performance? Shall people only train this way going forward? Or train one way, and play matches another? I appreciate you understanding my disagreement, but would prefer that we can continue the dialogue and get to the core of how all this information you present could be applied effectively for players.


The reason is that small tweaks to mechanics and technique, that aren't changing anything amiss with the core fundamentals of a stroke, do not typically make people better players.


Edited by bard romance - 07/02/2019 at 7:39pm
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"NextLevel sounds like a toxic and bitter guy who just spends all day long trolling in TT forums and has just nothing valuable to add other than continually putting down other people's posts and work." 


Exactly the impression I get.




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Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

NextLevel sounds like a toxic and bitter guy who just spends all day long trolling in TT forums and has just nothing valuable to add other than continually putting down other people's posts and work. 

He doesn't seem to know much about biomechanics but yet feels the need to show his ignorance again and again. He doesn't use the same mechanics as Harimoto does despite his wishful thinking, it's mostly powered by his lower back torquing and bending, maybe because he has even poorer mobility than even mjamja who btw is a much more positive poster. He didnt even understand the difference between lumbar and thoracic rotation which I thought was fairly simple, so of course to him these angle differences in the feet which is even more subtle would have been entirely lost because in his simplistic brain it's just the same ie getting low.

I wish there was a way to block someone else's posts here in this forum. I can stop seeing his toxic posts and he can stop seeing my posts which apparently triggers him because he can't stand someone stealing his spotlight. But it's fine, I will simply no longer respond to any of NextLevels posts anymore from now on. I actually have better things to do in my life. 

I do sound toxic and bitter to people I criticize.   The same way you sound toxic and bitter to me.  But I forget sometimes that you are likely much younger and lack some of the perspective to take some of the discussion in the proper spirit.

 I won't debate your expertise or your assessment of mine - it gets circular really fast trying to explain to someone who hasn't even shown you he can do a stroke the way he claims it can be done that it  doesn't work the way he claims it does.   I admire your desire to understand technique and biomechanical understanding of some technique is helpful when coaching.  In fact, good coaches often disagree on technique when it gets advanced.  I remember disagreeing with Brett Clarke of TTEDGE about a stroke and he couldn't correct my understanding of it until we met in person.

I am just trying to temper your enthusiasm with some realism. One can get a very fake impression of how pros develop technique from threads like this.
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Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"NextLevel sounds like a toxic and bitter guy who just spends all day long trolling in TT forums and has just nothing valuable to add other than continually putting down other people's posts and work." 


Exactly the impression I get.




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Points: 5443 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2019 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

For a little further context of what I'm referring to - for most players, strictly thinking about how to execute a shot or play from a body mechanics/perfect form/technique standpoint, is generally not a recipe for success. There are lots of variations on what constitutes an effective stroke, with a few common themes and key elements. So long as you are checking off those boxes, it would be much better to do what you're doing and work within yourself rather than getting into a frame of mind of "perfect biomechanics" for every shot. Countless times I see players stuck at lower or intermediate levels obsessing over the form of the shot, thinking its why they've always missed. It's not.

It is easy to see how someone reading these posts can go down this rabbit hole. Hence why I've presented an alternate perspective.

I have no beef with you whatsoever. I have a problem with NextLevel and his passive aggressive brand of personal attacks. Again, any educated person will judge for himself and herself what is good for their own game. Match performance is a complicated thing and I'm not concentrating on it, but you can't say that it's going to be a negative impact on someone's game without actually putting forward the actual reasons. I understand your reasons to disagree and I will defend your right to disagree. Cheers!


There are more people than you think that actually cannot judge what is good for their game. And lots of people who think they can that are wrong. That is where I am trying to raise some concerns. That said, what good does this really do if you aren't concentrating on match performance? Shall people only train this way going forward? Or train one way, and play matches another? I appreciate you understanding my disagreement, but would prefer that we can continue the dialogue and get to the core of how all this information you present could be applied effectively for players.


The reason is that small tweaks to mechanics and technique, that aren't changing anything amiss with the core fundamentals of a stroke, do not typically make people better players.

So taking this as an example, I think you can achieve a high level looping underspin with either waist bending and slight knee bend, or no waist bending and more complete knee bend. So in terms of match performance it probably doesn't matter as long as it's consistent and you're getting low for the shot. But it might matter for your long term lower back health. I'm not saying that it is better but merely it's not worse as an alternative. 

I would counter your statement that "if it doesn't affect match performance what good does this really do" by "if I'm an amateur and not making money from the sport and my current technique might be injurious in the long term, I might want to consider tweaking my stroke to a healthier alternative to avoid injuries even if it causes a short term level drop". Also I think you should generally use the same strokes in both training and matches (even if it doesn't look the same the core principles should be intact)

My own improvements come from many different sources. I have a much better BH push now and also BH loop/counter (after implementing a right leg based push off for the BH rather than my old waist rotation BH). I also have much spinnier serves which helped heaps. My FH is kinda messy now due to the amount of changes, but I think I'll get there soon. 
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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