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sprite 
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Joined: 03/16/2004 Status: Offline Points: 925 |
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 Posted: 12/09/2006 at 12:19pm |
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I don't want to believe that the Chinese restrict religious practice or jail political dissidents, but they do. What ever happened to the fellow who stood before the tank at Tiananmen Square? These are matters of far greater import than who is the victor in sporting events; so why wouldn�t they be willing to control them if they believe it will give greater glory to the nation?
"Ma Lin against Liu Guozheng" If you ever watch this match again, ask yourself why Liu did not continue with the strategy that won him games. With that strategy he won, without it he lost. Why the change from success to failure? Furthermore, sometimes there are reasons to dictate the results of a match, while other times there are no reasons to do so. Wang Hao represents the pinnacle of the Chinese tt development, rpb; which arguably the Chinese would like to see achieve great results. Hao has problems with choking, mostly against his team mates. If he is allowed to acquire a few successes maybe he will gain confidence and become strong enough to attain major titles on his own merit. |
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hieupham
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Joined: 02/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 445 |
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Posted: 12/09/2006 at 1:02pm |
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well, look at another perspective of this issue, if u re Liu Guoliang right now, would u want to see Ma and Wang fight each other, hit their teammate- opponents at their weak points, so every one else in the world know that Ma has some of this weaknesses, and Wang has some others? especially when today, Timo Boll, Samsonov, or the Koreans are getting closer to the Chinese levels, and they cant wait to see the Chinese show all their weaknesses.
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takaaki
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Posted: 12/09/2006 at 3:02pm |
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that's it, hieupham!! great post!! imho, that's basically the reason they dump the games to each other--to hide whatever weaknesses they may have from the rest of the world. and i don't think this just started with coach liu guoliang, but it was also coach cai zhenhua before him (and, actually, i think he's still the boss, so he's not out of the picture) and whoever was coaching before him, cuz they have done this for a very long time, if not forever... |
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hieupham
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Posted: 12/09/2006 at 4:30pm |
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i dont know, as long as Chinese top players are still under a team, i think they wont stop this, however, if they turn out in a more professional way, as Individual athlete, just like in pro tennis,( when Agassi playing Roddick or Blade), that s probably how things will improve. Well, at least, hopefully.
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zzzuppp
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Posted: 12/09/2006 at 5:12pm |
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Thanks for your posts,sprite,saying what needed to be said.
There is a sinister political subtext at work beneath the apparently harmless.The regime that holds an iron grip on its subjects extends the same to TT. Takaaki,the Chinese have been dumping and match-fixing since 1961 at least.In that year they hosted the Worlds and whenever two Chinese opposed each other,one would mysteriously fail to appear,thus giving the 'chosen one' a bye to the next round without raising a sweat.This went on for a few rounds before the ITTF stepped in. There have been many celebrated dumps and a few refusals-He Zhili's case has been mentioned;and it is well-known that the Chinese 'allowed' Pak Yung Sun of North Korea-who China was wishing to extend 'friendship' to-to win the '75 and '77 Worlds.She would probably have been allowed to win the '79 Worlds in Pyongyang too,had not the Chinese become fed up with the equally blatant bias of local umpires towards anyone from PRK. |
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takaaki
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Posted: 12/09/2006 at 5:57pm |
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thanks for that zzzuppp--like i said, i've only been following the game since the mid to late 80's so i dunno much about what went on beforehand. that said, i did hear about the he zhili case, but i haven't heard anyone explain it in detail. thank the lord for oldtimers!! you, hieupham and sprite make a very good point that a lot of people here seem to forget--they don't have a democracy over there, like we do here or you guys in europe. the athletes over there are no freer than the average person, in fact they are under even tighter control than the average person, because of the obvious political propaganda value of their "work." so, it's no wonder, that some of them can't deal with the enormous pressure and end up cracking. anyway, thanks again, guys, for the good posts!! |
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varghesep
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Posted: 12/09/2006 at 11:25pm |
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Didn't Joo Se Hyuk play in the asian games? |
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ilikepp
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Joined: 11/23/2006 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Posted: 12/09/2006 at 11:43pm |
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u r rigth, i gree with you. |
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i like table tennis and make friends here.
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Jolan
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Posted: 12/10/2006 at 3:43am |
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Ok Fair enough, I don't believe you and I'm not the only one. By the way, could you let us know where these indisputable pieces of information are comming from ? Are you coach Cai and Liu best friend ? Now I'm talking to young players who are surfing on these web pages and who are getting excited about these stories of dumped matches. You see, in TT or in real life, there's a lot of people who feel they are becomming very important by revealing plots,unbelievable stories, that they are in the secret of gods. Frankly, they know nothing about nothing. They just want you to believe they do... Please don't let them laugh at you. Make and keep your own judgement using your eyes, ears and common sense. |
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mafia
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Posted: 12/10/2006 at 9:19am |
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Rotational championship....
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Maze ST
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crs2
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Posted: 12/11/2006 at 8:21am |
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Please tell us about ONE confirmed case of a fixed table tennis match at an important event. Do not come with " it was obvious it was fixed".... I want to hear about ITTF measures taken against players or teams. If you can't find any, let's stop accusing the world's best players. I can accept that Ma Lin had a bad day, was tired, didn't finish taking a s**t before the match, was thinking about getting a Schlager haircut or whatever but talking about fixed matches without any proof just hurts the sport. |
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TT_Freak
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Posted: 12/11/2006 at 10:21am |
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What a load of rubbish, Wang Hao won because he was better than Ma Lin in their match. Ma Lin has notoriously bad stamina and that grueling mix-doubles match did nothing to help him, if any of you could understand Cantonese you'd have heard the comentators talking about it in the first game.
PS: The reason Ma Lin won against Wang Hao in the world cup is because he changed his serve to make it awkward for Wang Hao to receive with his backhand. |
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Violin
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thethinker
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Posted: 12/11/2006 at 2:18pm |
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There is no reason to get upset. There are posters who just want to accuse China of fixing match after every final because they themself are unhappy with the result or the match for whatever reasons. If you read the post on world cup, the same people. Just ignore them. I do. They have their reasons for doing this and it's just not worth the time to argue. With no one to argue with they can't stir up anything.
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dxtt
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Posted: 12/11/2006 at 5:35pm |
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stanley, try http://localhostr.com
This site gives static link which never changes. I used downloadthemall in firefox with 5 threads and the download speed tops 1.5MB/s !!! |
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zzzuppp
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Posted: 12/11/2006 at 7:31pm |
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Actually,I'm not unhappy with any results,and I don't have 'reasons',nor am I trying to stir anything up.I've been following the game for nearly forty years as a historian,and there are plenty of well-documented examples of suspected Chinese match fixes and dumps.The above example from the Asian Games may be a continuation of this trend. True,these fixings were mostly in the 60's and 70's,but that's not to say it doesn't continue.In the 70's Chinese head coach Li Furong would always say 'friendship first,competition second' as the Chinese blatantly threw matches to chosen opponents. I think you'll agree that it would be very difficult for the ITTF (or whoever) to prove that a match was thrown.But there is no harm or hidden agenda in the rest of us suspecting that it happens sometimes. |
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Patmandidily
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Posted: 12/11/2006 at 10:36pm |
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In the Chinese super league, Wang Hao actually has a good record against Ma Lin. Nobody complains when Wang Hao beats him, or even when Ma Lin loses to someone seemingly much worse than him in the super league. Once it happens in a regular tournament though, everyone says it's fixed and Ma Lin dropped it purposefully. Come on, guys... Get with the times |
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Blade - Bastian Steger Flared (Butterfly)
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culvch
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 12:19am |
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Dear All, Whether those matches among the Chinese were fixed or not, it's difficult to say since every country will like to ensure that their country will be dominant in that sports. The most important thing is for other countries to produce better players such as Timo Ball to match the Chinese. If Germany can produce 3 top players in the world and in order to maintain that supremacy I believe they will use some "strategy" to ensure that they remain at the top. So don't waste too much time discussing on match throwing. Focus more on imporving the skills and techniques. If you can beat anyone anytime, there is nothing to fear off.
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CUL
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HaoFZ
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 12:47am |
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Since when did a topic on the Asian Games turned into a discussion over Chinese politics? Just to clarify one thing, I believe that some matches are fixed and looking at the finals, whether it was or not, one fact is that they were not trying very hard ^^
But then whats the problem with it? On two players sent by China, both got to the finals so they can do w/e they want with the gold/silver medals, even at the World Cup, they got all 3 medals and showed how good they are - does it really matter who got 1/2/3? In China all three are as popular and supported. People complain about how China is a communist country with the lack of freedom but it is the country standing out atm and it is true that some people suffer but if you just think for a second and see how MUCH people in China have gained from that? Dont tell me some countries like the US did not gain their wealth on the back of others... Now on a TT perspective, when was the last time China dominated TT so badly? Man according to the STIGA ratings China owns 7 out of the top 10 players in the world... (I know those arent official so please dont debate on that) Now come to think of how many times those players play against each other for training purposes? I do understand there is more pressure involved in tournaments and some players with less experience like WH might choke but then isnt it better to sacrifice a win or two to allow your teamates to improve? Why did never anyone mention China viewing their sport more as a TEAM than so much junk criticizing their politics. As far as I can tell they have been the one rising up and pwning everyone gaining more and more medals at every olympics than any other country (I dont agree with the intensity of their training practices but it's the athletes choices). Who can name a TT team close to beating China? Even if your top seeds somehow beats WLQ/ML/WH, how your seed 4-5 face Chinese players with nearly twice their ratings? If a coach had some decent intelligence, would you let your top players bash each other weaknesses in front of all opponents watching the game or recording it like the Koreans (thanks for the vid Stanley ^^) and if you might forget something, those athletes have the skills they do not only becuz they work hard, but becuz they were given the chance to train with and to be trained by the best. In China there is something called listen to what your master/coach says instead of being controled by your selfishness like some people are trying to promote. I have given plenty of material for whoever wants to quote but before criticizing a culture please try to understand even a fraction of it and than look at yourself to see if you have even ANY competence in doing so. |
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thethinker
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 2:58am |
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This issue make a much more interesting topic of discussion-hiding weakness when play team mates. Like fixing matches, I believe this is more frequent in the distant past. China has nothing to gain by not letting others or themself finding and playing their weakness, if there is any at all at their level. How else can they be better? Still, a lot of things were held back because China has a very strong team concept, I think.
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thethinker
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 3:19am |
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I said I wouldn't do it but I guess I lack self control! LOL
zzzuppp, try it with one of your friends and play a match with something on the line, such as a few bucks. And then play a match that's you two are fixing so that the winner is now the loser. Ask someone to watch both matches and tell me that it would not be too obvious or impossible to hide the sudden "unforced errors". Now image that you have to throw away a match, by playing soft, in the final of one of the biggest events in the world, such as the Asian Games or the World Cup. Your confidence would not be the same after that! So I don't think China would try to destroy one of their players that they invested heavily. Remember they are ML and WH, not just those in the national team. May be in the past that can happen, but not with a player's coach like Liu. Come on! (End of discussion.) |
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sprite
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 4:44am |
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At the top levels they do not need to play soft in order to throw a match. They only need the tactics to be altered enough that one player can play his strenghts, while the other cannot.
For example in the World Cup Hao vs Lin, Hao was serving side/chop and winning, he later began serving side/top and Lin began to attack Hao serves and went on to win. This is a clear case of a chnge in tatics which took Hao from success to failure. The questions left are, why did Hao change a winning strategy, and did he do it to purposely give Lin an advantage. |
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louie9
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 8:35am |
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Ok. I tell you the true. Chinese do fixed there matches. I know players that had to lose for other players to go up the ranking. Mostly the final are not fixed but they can give a friend a win so it help with thier confident. That why I dont like the boss of TT in china, what his name, the guy that coach china before Liu Guozheng. He mostly fixed the matches. If the players dont do what he say, well, they might not get to play for china any more. It simple as that. Even Liu Guozheng is the china coach but he still run the show. In the china super leauge , they fixed matches more because of the money, reputaion for other palyers, team deporting to B grade, etc. For me I dont like how they fixed matches.
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takaaki
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 11:25am |
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cai zhenhua is the guy you're talking about...
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TT_Freak
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 11:34am |
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Watch Wang Hao's other matches, at clutch points he likes to serve balls that if pushed would result in a third ball. Ma Lin being the more experienced player and his teammate went for the kill, just like how Liu Guoliang and Wang Liqin knew that Ma Lin liked to serve heavy backspin on similar cluth points (I estimate that he serves his heavy backspin on 70% of clutch points).
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Violin
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Tommy lee
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 11:39am |
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Hi fellas, I have a thread about the final being fixed in www.tabletennis.gr under forum and general and Doha 2006. It would be great if you all joined in and gave some of the views that you have above. Hope to see you there. |
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takaaki
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 11:59am |
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wang hao has a good record against ma lin in the super league?? since when?? this past summer, ma lin's record was 17-1. none those matches were against wang hao. he played wang liqin 3 times and beat him 3-2, 3-1, and 3-0, in that order. summer 2005: ma lin's record was 22-2. he played wang hao and wang liqin twice each and won every match. the score in all the matches was the same: 3-1, ma lin. maybe at the practice gym wang hao has a good record against ma, but in tournaments, either within china or without, his record against ma is unfortunately a losing one.
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takaaki
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 12:05pm |
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great post, zzzuppp!! |
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ryu seungminfan
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 12:29pm |
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even if they are 'dumping matches' there only a very small percentage they were trying to hide their weakness. they've played so many matches, any professional coach would have figured out their game
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takaaki
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Posted: 12/12/2006 at 12:38pm |
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oh, for those who want to know, the 1 loss this past summer was to zhang chao who's currently unranked, but his last ranking was 67th in the world. the 2 losses in summer 2005 was to li ping (currently ranked 69th) and ding song (currently unranked--he lost his ranking a few years back, i believe). |
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ooDKNYoo
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Posted: 12/13/2006 at 5:29am |
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That's right.Wang Hao is no match for Liqin in some respects of technique speed , and stamina as well as footwork. Objectively, Wang Hao 's good FH is not so wonderful as Malin 's,especially the deft touches and quick flicks..Wang Hao did not implement vertical bracket's forte over the table.. |
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