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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 8:57pm
For both FH an BH strokes I am considering 3 different types of technics. 
They have different biomechanics (starting from legs position and finishing the complex of wrist motions)
 and well distinguished by the following legends (to my mind well - to other minds it can be just confusing :) :) :) ):
1) making pancakes;
2) oared rowing;
3) lifting;
There is an ability to add right or left sidespin to all of them.
All of them suitable for topspins, smashes, drives and blocks.

From my observations - main errors happen when people are trying to mix these biomechanics as their strokes become less consistent 
(too much of additional noise to muscle memory).

"Brushing" is as far as I understood just a radial/ulnar deviation.
Actually it's really difficult (if possible at all) to remove "brushing" when you are really hardhitting the ball - easier to have your wrist slightly tensed than 
over-tensed (in this case you would deal with unnatural tense of the whole arm as it's almost impossible to tense wrist not tensing the upper arm)
or totally relaxed (totally relaxed impossible - your paddle would just be thrown away :) )
So "brushing" happens anyway and the extent of tension is limited by the type of technics (those 3 types) you use and by your legs+body explosion power you apply.
Otherwise if you overbrushing (manually give too much of a relaxation on the joint) - it can lead to pathology and finally lead to some injury.

There is a trade off for a function of (spin, speed, consistency) edge points and this trade off is between the biomechanics types you chose 
and depending that type your paddle will have one or another closed/opened angle and this angle will be changed dynamically on those 20cm which actually is mainly the scattering ellipse 
inside which you actually apply all that exploded power from legs+body through the shoulders/chest/back to the arm and palm finally be it BH or FH hit.

So the main idea - do not try to do something "unnaturally": too relaxed is also unnatural thing and  too tensed as well, all that is in between - is just ok.
You can try make little changes bit by bit and check first of all the health and after that the result of flying of the ball.
The paddle is often times 150-230grams - not so much for grown up, but the biomechanics of motion is going through so called "stretched" or weak positions (as there is no specific muscle stabilizer or the vector of movement sets it to weak position) and thus are risky as can hurt you at any time.


Edited by Valiantsin - 12/21/2022 at 6:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.

I agree with your view on the wrist, there's no need to actively use the wrist to create quality shots, particularly on the FH. As long as you keep all your joints loose until they're activated sequentially you'll naturally be dragging your wrist and whip it forward just before contact. You can intentionally cock it backward like Timo or Liam and often times ZJK, but guys like WLQ and ML can obviously also create quality shots without it. 

For the BH since you can't use your core nearly as much, the wrist is a bit more important. Even then, you just need to worry about the backswing. You'll naturally develop a comfortable forward swing depending on the timing, location, and your preference re: spin vs speed so long as you sequentially activate your muscles. 


Edited by dingyibvs - 12/20/2022 at 7:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:18pm
With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.


Edited by blahness - 12/20/2022 at 6:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

You said "With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general", and I'm showing evidence that it's not the case. I didn't say anything about pronation/supination. 

I personally also have a closed angle during the backswing, but really when it contacts the ball it is an open angle, and then after that it becomes less open due to the supination.  The reason it looks the way it does is because of the other joints in the body (particularly taking the elbow back) which creates this illusion of a closed bat angle in the beginning when really what matters is the racket angle at contact, and how it is changing during those milliseconds of contact. 

Especially against heavy backspin, sometimes you even need to open it beyond 90 deg (BH face facing upwards) to lift it with ease.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.

Wang Liqin has a lot of whip in his forehand loop.  Can anyone look at this stroke and say that there isn't whip in the racket?  You can see his racket lagging the stroke on the backswing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmO_JSMJSns

That Timo Boll uses his whip to power a smaller stroke is part of what I am talking about.  No doubt, one can get a good stroke by being more physical.  But I tend to say that a stroke without some whip is not *optimal* and has some room for visible improvement - it is not about having more whip per se, but about having visible whip.  But maybe I am overthinking it.  What I originally said was that not seeing the relaxed whip in the stroke that Valiantsin is practicing and it seems to me more shoulder driven because I don't see the lag that usually signifies good racket head speed.  His ball quality speaks for itself and is pretty high.  Having more whip in your stroke can add some instability but can improve your racket head speed.



All top players have some whip. My philosophy on technique is don't worry too much about the forward swing, you just need to keep things relaxed until you're ready to unleash power, generally from the bottom up (legs to waist to shoulder to arm to wrist to fingers). What people usually get wrong, or simply differ, is the backswing. For FH for example, many people don't weight transfer to the hind leg, or don't rotate their waist enough. When you get the backswing right, you'll naturally whip your arm/wrist/etc. during thr forward swing.

A personal example was my BH technique. People kept on telling me that I use too much wrist. I recorded a video of me playing, and felt they were right. I kept on trying to use my arm more, even adding excessive swing from my shoulder to no avail. Then I studied my videos closer and I realized that it was because I kept my elbow too close to the body. Try it, keep your elbow close to your body and you'll have almost no range of motion with your forearm. To add any speed/spin you'd have to use a lot of wrist. Once I fixed that, the forward motion fixed itself. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

You said "With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general", and I'm showing evidence that it's not the case. I didn't say anything about pronation/supination. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 10:37am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.

Wang Liqin has a lot of whip in his forehand loop.  Can anyone look at this stroke and say that there isn't whip in the racket?  You can see his racket lagging the stroke on the backswing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmO_JSMJSns

That Timo Boll uses his whip to power a smaller stroke is part of what I am talking about.  No doubt, one can get a good stroke by being more physical.  But I tend to say that a stroke without some whip is not *optimal* and has some room for visible improvement - it is not about having more whip per se, but about having visible whip.  But maybe I am overthinking it.  What I originally said was that not seeing the relaxed whip in the stroke that Valiantsin is practicing and it seems to me more shoulder driven because I don't see the lag that usually signifies good racket head speed.  His ball quality speaks for itself and is pretty high.  Having more whip in your stroke can add some instability but can improve your racket head speed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:49am
Supination is already clearly defined in the picture and it is a separate concept from racket angle although it is related. 

If you lean forward your racket becomes more closed and vice versa - if you raise your hand your racket becomes more open and vice versa. 

The racket angle is not just controlled by pronation/supination.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:19am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

Can you explain in plain language maybe so the masses can understand? Then there can be no confusion. Simples is sometimes best when explaining to a group of people. It woukd help alot more. 


Edited by ghostzen - 12/20/2022 at 7:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:14am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.


Timos whip and racket head speed produces spin one would think while WLQ speed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:47am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.

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BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:42am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:00am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 1:54am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?


Edited by NextLevel - 12/20/2022 at 1:58am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 10:59am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:27am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 
Mb you are right.
But there exists  low of identity in the logic and to think coherently and to speak with colleagues you need to have proper terminology.
That's why imho it should be video which kinda gives some simple explanation on what is what in some plan like this:
1) Flexion + Extension; Radial + Ulnar Deviation; Pronation + Supination;
2) degree of freedom of movement with and without paddle, what positions of paddle in palm gives what;
3) How it looks on example of BH;
4) What adjustments can be done to manage the ball correctly;
Last point is exactly what you mentioned but without understanding previous 3 it does not make sense - just imagine you are using terms that 90% of people just do not understand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:03am
I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 
Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:00am
Originally posted by brands77 brands77 wrote:

Valiantsin, Thanks for the follow up to my initial post. You are way, way better than I. I have no idea what my usatt rating is as I am from uk, but I have only just started playing in the bottom division of my local tt league. I am winning about 50% of my matches though.

My problems I think are multiple, but if it is any help to any other lower standard players like myself. the big thing that made a difference for me, was footwork. I thought I was ok on my feet, but that was when i was 15 when I last played. Now I am 60 I am not as fast on my feet at all. I tend to plant myself for the shot at the start of the rally and I don't anticipate until too late. I have worked hard on this, moving early and try to move back to the centre line without thinking.
For me this has been the thing that has helped the most.
Hello Brands.
For those who is 15 years old it makes sense to make a video of the game and also look and see what is their footwork level.
I am not speaking only about those little mini jumps for more precise adjustment but overall footwork - game without the ball.
It should be patterns of movement, should be some anticipation (it's actually experience + quality of your own shots prior to opponent return) and yes - finally little adjustments.
without last one - still possible to play - bright example is:
but without first 2 - no.
This level not sure if can be trained - but proper patterns still exist and good coach can train you them.
Myself have not so many patterns but still using them when not lazy/have enough energy.
2 of them are: 
1) service + 3d ball attack
2) bh + move to fh winner
There are very many other good patterns - but to work on all of them you need to have practice partner (better if it's a coach or coach is somewhere near to look and fix errors) and time.
It's better to work on not so many patterns but to implement them good then to work on many and implement it badly.
IMHO of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:44am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 
I guess it would be great to have video which will have proper explanation on what really happens to avoid the myths of "wrist" motion.
At the same time it will become more clear on how actually the stoke can happen in different situations

Table tennis is a weird sport. Every other sport like badminton and tennis already have incredibly scientific, detailed biomechanical description of what is involved in every aspect of the stroke. In particular, nobody talks about "wrist movement" in badminton, they use the correct terminology ie forearm pronation and supination lol. 

Tbh this is not new in the Chinese circles, they call it 小臂内旋(forearm pronation) and 小臂外旋 (forearm supination). I once asked my ex-Chinese provincial player about the secret to his incredible amount of BH spin, and he did tell me once it was all about the supination and good use of body.

I have some beef with this issue because most coaches tell you to "use the wrist", and never tell you in what particular way they mean (there's 2 planes to wrist movement - radial/ulnar deviation plane, and flexion/extension. Pronation/supination doesn't come from the wrist but is a forearm action. 
So when a coach says "use the wrist" it becomes a 1/3 chance that the student will know what the correct movement is lol. 




Edited by blahness - 12/18/2022 at 6:55am
-------
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:39am
Agreed Valiantsin.....great idea Thumbs Up

It would be great to have a "Saved" thread with video and a clear explanation in plain language for the players which everyone can understand in a very simple straightforward way.

People tend to learn in very different ways especially later adult learners or the very young. Nextlevel etc and the other good journeyman players/coaches/Practice partners who have helpled tons of fledgling players will hopefully agree that sometimes things click different ways for different people. This can be because of age, size, or injury maybe or starting levels.

Soooo... it really must breach those issues. You can't expect the masses  of people to understand scientifically correct terms if they have no base to work from. Also there is the other slight issue of almost forcing scientifically correct terms on players. Exanding knowledge is amazing but in a way that the masses can understand and benifit from would be even better.

Non of us here are playing Chinese/Euro super league.... after all....If anyone is....can I have tickets or a crafty bit of kit Smile No really it would be good...

It must of course explain these terms in the simplest way so a newer players isn't overly confused by complicated scientifically correct terms and can grasp these scientifically correct terms while being easy to understand. Especially if these are younger or very new to the game.

It a great idea honestly.

Any takers to get this off the ground? Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brands77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:17am
Valiantsin, Thanks for the follow up to my initial post. You are way, way better than I. I have no idea what my usatt rating is as I am from uk, but I have only just started playing in the bottom division of my local tt league. I am winning about 50% of my matches though.

My problems I think are multiple, but if it is any help to any other lower standard players like myself. the big thing that made a difference for me, was footwork. I thought I was ok on my feet, but that was when i was 15 when I last played. Now I am 60 I am not as fast on my feet at all. I tend to plant myself for the shot at the start of the rally and I don't anticipate until too late. I have worked hard on this, moving early and try to move back to the centre line without thinking.
For me this has been the thing that has helped the most.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 5:01am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 
I guess it would be great to have video which will have proper explanation on what really happens to avoid the myths of "wrist" motion.
At the same time it will become more clear on how actually the stoke can happen in different situations
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 3:31am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 
with all due respect this doesnt address anything I have written.

Look at the very first shot that Fan hits.  Look at his backswing.   Valiantsin foesnt have anything close to that.  

I get that the body usage is different and I am not even arguing or debating that. But sometimes you can see when there is a limit of what is getting transmitted to the racket.



Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 
-------
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 3:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....

Of course you don't need to create spin with the wrist.  All advanced players just do it.  No not just Timo Boll. All of them.  The body is far more important but watch the degree of wrist snap driven by the backswing of any top player's strokes. 

Now you finally say that the body is far more important - yes it is and this is exactly why Dubina's stroke is incapable of reaching the very high power levels - it simply lacks a few critical power generation mechanisms by the large muscle groups. The wrist is probably the weakest mechanism - it only needs to go along with the ride (which is what you're seeing in most top players). 
-------
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 1:24am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 
with all due respect this doesnt address anything I have written.

Look at the very first shot that Fan hits.  Look at his backswing.   Valiantsin foesnt have anything close to that.  

I get that the body usage is different and I am not even arguing or debating that. But sometimes you can see when there is a limit of what is getting transmitted to the racket.


I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 1:19am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....

Of course you don't need to create spin with the wrist.  All advanced players just do it.  No not just Timo Boll. All of them.  The body is far more important but watch the degree of wrist snap driven by the backswing of any top player's strokes. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 12:53am

Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 


Edited by blahness - 12/18/2022 at 12:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2022 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2022 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.
SSSS :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2022 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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