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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 
The answer is easy: for first 2 years I trained + played in a small room.
It gives many limitations.
To win in a small room you should have powerful and pretty consistent strokes.
You do not necessarily need to have good movement as there is not much place to move actually.
So the pattern to win there is simple - be first to attack and return ball as much inconveniently as possible.
But that "inconveniently" is not such difficult in good gyms with enough place if your opponent fast enough :) 
And the strokes quality becomes somehow not "killing" enough :) 

Yeah that explains a lot. I feel like the best footwork tutorials I found online are all in Chinese, by a guy called 米粒乒乓, and the ideas he teaches are nowhere to be found in any English tutorials so far. The concept he always teaches is to use multiple small adjustment steps, not one step to reach the ball. The idea is that you don't want to commit your body weight onto any foot too early lest your anticipation is wrong and you get caught flat footed. For eg even when you can reach a middle short ball in 1 step you should still take 3 steps instead so that you can still watch the ball like a hawk in the meantime and adjust in case your anticipation is wrong. You only commit to a stroke (plant your weight on a foot) once you're sure, and by the time you can no longer adjust much, so you better plant the foot in a good position for hitting it. This way you don't "commit" early, which removes a lot of assumptions you need to make before hitting, also you get more information about the trajectory which reduces errors, and maybe your opponent will make a positioning error which you can exploit (for eg pivoting too early). After hitting any shot you should continue doing the left right left right stepping/shuffling in order to "find" the best position in relation to what your opponent can do.

One advantage of the new horrible WTT side view is the footwork angle. I watched some Ma Long games and he definitely takes a lot more steps than a lot of ppl realise. 
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 
The answer is easy: for first 2 years I trained + played in a small room.
It gives many limitations.
To win in a small room you should have powerful and pretty consistent strokes.
You do not necessarily need to have good movement as there is not much place to move actually.
So the pattern to win there is simple - be first to attack and return ball as much inconveniently as possible.
But that "inconveniently" is not such difficult in good gyms with enough place if your opponent fast enough :) 
And the strokes quality becomes somehow not "killing" enough :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  
Agree - I almost do not have problem with hand motion (except I do know what exactly I do and use pronation and supination depending on proper things - but does not matter :) :) )
What I have problems with - is movement.
That's why I often times do strokes just with hand instead of proper usage of technics-  then the ball flies somehow but the quality is poor.
What more worse is that without proper movement to the stroke I can not go to the next position well - and often times just can not deal with incoming ball if it returns.
Fat + bad patterns of movement and that's it - my BH looses 70% of how much deadly it could be.

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  
Agree - I almost do not have problem with hand motion (except I do know what exactly I do and use pronation and supination depending on proper things - but does not matter :) :) )
What I have problems with - is movement.
That's why I often times do strokes just with hand instead of proper usage of technics-  then the ball flies somehow but the quality is poor.
What more worse is that without proper movement to the stroke I can not go to the next position well - and often times just can not deal with incoming ball if it returns.
Fat + bad patterns of movement and that's it - my BH looses 70% of how much deadly it could be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:49pm
Many coaches show that old is old and not to use that as it gives less control (motion is less focused): 
Here is how to study BH smash/drive in modern way:
Here is how to properly study banana
Overall tendency for BH - shorter + faster instead or more rotative but slower.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.


Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168
First 2 videos - Fan is using modern techniques - none classic flower.
Third video - Liam shows exactly what should be done https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=173.
Dan does shorten, more modern variant https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=216
Could you please clarify what you mean by using ancient techniques?
And tell please more wide about what to your mind I am doing wrong in BH?


You dont use the wrist the esy they do to get an aggressive stroke.  Ancient techniques is my exaggeration of your classic backhand statement.  That said, if you think you are doing what Liam and Fan are doing , that is okay.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

Analysing Dan's technique - his elbow is in the exact same position from start to finish which means he's not engaging his lats for extra power (you see the elbow go to the right and even sometimes backwards in a clockwise rotation in all top players). Also there's no weight transfer, also an incredibly important part of power production. They only analysed surface level stuff like use of wrist which is just lame imo.


Edited by blahness - 12/16/2022 at 7:32pm
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 2:06pm
I like what does Liam here : https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=269
BTW there is interesting situation:
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=408
First 3 shots Liam is making "flower" while next 3 shots he is doing in modern technics - more focused, more consistent, more powerful, but yes - less spinny.
I advice you to look at 1/4 speed of a movie - it allows to see pretty much to be able to analyze.


Edited by Valiantsin - 12/16/2022 at 2:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.


Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168
First 2 videos - Fan is using modern techniques - none classic flower.
Third video - Liam shows exactly what should be done https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=173.
Dan does shorten, more modern variant https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=216
Could you please clarify what you mean by using ancient techniques?
And tell please more wide about what to your mind I am doing wrong in BH?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 11:22am
It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.


Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168


Edited by NextLevel - 12/16/2022 at 11:28am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 9:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.


Edited by Valiantsin - 12/16/2022 at 9:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:58am
What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 4:57am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:


Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It could also be because of your weight - if you were lighter it would be easier to move faster. Usually heavier players choose a much more compact FH stroke sacrificing some power for continuity (basically minimal arm movement with most of the incoming power coming from weight transfer) so that they can get in position faster. The other thing is fast shuffling of the feet and increasing your frequency of steps instead of one big lunge which leaves you unbalanced).

Yes - my weight is a stumbling block for me :(
I try to deal with it from time to time - but have no much success with that :(

You can watch how some other heavier weight players deal with that (Sun Mingyang, Liang Jingkun, etc...). I think their strokes are usually super compact and they make their attacks really count. 

Or just cut carbs and lose the weight haha, I once lost 10kg in 2 months doing just that!
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 2:17am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Tbh your banana flick is pretty strong - I wouldn't want to deal with it in a match and would be aiming to jam it as much as I can. The issue in your match is that you were only banana flicking one type of spin and placement which made it easy for him to anticipate. If you did the short spinny chiquita, and also occassionally the chiquita towards his FH, and mixed the sidespin / topspin proportions (there's even a chiquita that produces side-underspin if you wanted to really mess with your opponent's head) it'll make his life hell trying to decipher all the variations. 
You know - I do not have much of experience to play against such strong guys.
Last time I played against similar rating guy was against Yinka Olasoji (he is also around 2500) that time I could not even make myself to attack at all from my BH.
After that started trainings to utilize pattern serve + attack.
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Your FH is pretty strong when you get it in, but there's a lot of errors and also you're not getting in a good position for the next shot if it's blocked - mostly due to weak positioning of the feet - you're not getting into the "power" position which the FH requires. 
Yes - I need better patterns and better footwork for them.
But it all need time and ability to train - not all I can train without practice partner - far from all actually.

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It could also be because of your weight - if you were lighter it would be easier to move faster. Usually heavier players choose a much more compact FH stroke sacrificing some power for continuity (basically minimal arm movement with most of the incoming power coming from weight transfer) so that they can get in position faster. The other thing is fast shuffling of the feet and increasing your frequency of steps instead of one big lunge which leaves you unbalanced).

Yes - my weight is a stumbling block for me :(
I try to deal with it from time to time - but have no much success with that :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 2:02am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.
Hi - did not get what you meant by this phrase.

Because you don't have a range of wrist motion, the equality comes from your upper arm usage and that is usually very visible.  You can't play a backhand like say Liam Pitchford or even Ma Long or Fan Zhendong - you have no wrist leverage.  You are a good player for sure, I am just pointing out a technical limitation of your approach - the backhand gives you less because the backswing gives you less because you don't get much whip on the backswing.
:) You compared me with guys from another planet :) 
For me I think my BH when becomes really stable (i.e. I will make in a row 50-70 strokes of a good level against RB without loosing the ball in series in this exercise against topspin RB) will be good till level of 2400-2500 
:) :) It seems it's obviously that I have some other limitations like for example blahness mentioned - too much of additional weight that will not allow me to get to that level (and many others - but this one I consider as a main one) 
So basically this BH will be more than I even can have in best case :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:49am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

With this part I agree :
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

If there was any improvement to make it would be more on footwork and FH imo. But as Alamiyan has proven, with a strong BH you don't even need any FH stroke to play at a high level lol
My FH is pretty strong but need to utilize it better and thus need better footwork to do that.
For BH as well.
And for receives as well.
Overall - I know how to move only close to table (there are not so many options - so easy - see the ball try to get there or at least reach it stretching the hand :)  ).
When started to train with bigger shots from BH saw very awkward moves from my side on video and yes - trying to work on footwork but there is not so much of improvement.

About my banana - it's not so much spinny or speedy as appeared easy to attack actually - this guy showed it. So against him I needed to do it not in tempo I used to, but tried to do it faster and thus risked pretty much and he caught me couple of times with longer serves because of that. 
Overall I liked to play against him - pink glasses were broken.

Tbh your banana flick is pretty strong - I wouldn't want to deal with it in a match and would be aiming to jam it as much as I can. The issue in your match is that you were only banana flicking one type of spin and placement which made it easy for him to anticipate. If you did the short spinny chiquita, and also occassionally the chiquita towards his FH, and mixed the sidespin / topspin proportions (there's even a chiquita that produces side-underspin if you wanted to really mess with your opponent's head) it'll make his life hell trying to decipher all the variations. 

Your FH is pretty strong when you get it in, but there's a lot of errors and also you're not getting in a good position for the next shot if it's blocked - mostly due to weak positioning of the feet - you're not getting into the "power" position which the FH requires. 

It could also be because of your weight - if you were lighter it would be easier to move faster. Usually heavier players choose a much more compact FH stroke sacrificing some power for continuity (basically minimal arm movement with most of the incoming power coming from weight transfer) so that they can get in position faster. The other thing is fast shuffling of the feet and increasing your frequency of steps instead of one big lunge which leaves you unbalanced).




-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:44am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.
Hi - did not get what you meant by this phrase.

Because you don't have a range of wrist motion, the equality comes from your upper arm usage and that is usually very visible.  You can't play a backhand like say Liam Pitchford or even Ma Long or Fan Zhendong - you have no wrist leverage.  You are a good player for sure, I am just pointing out a technical limitation of your approach - the backhand gives you less because the backswing gives you less because you don't get much whip on the backswing.


Edited by NextLevel - 12/14/2022 at 1:50am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:33am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

anyway Valiantsin has a very good BH and BH chiquita, it's funny to see him say stuff about "not enough consistency and speed" with his BH.... guy even goes to the FH side to chiquita FH short balls (which I generally never dare to do for fear of getting aced on the deep BH), and generally wins points when he gets the killer BH in. 

Thank you for good words about my BH :) 
 
By not consistent I meant when my opponent can deal with my speed and moreover can propose higher speed - then my shots become risky and not consistent.
And one more thing - I need not only to return somehow but to make some good shots from my BH and whenever I tried to add power - in 80% of cases the ball flowed wherever it wanted except where it needed to be.
Prior to these changes I trained like I thought mostly girls did - I mean tried to do close to table game and till some level of opponents it went well, but this guy showed me perfectly -  I am not able to win only in close to table game if my opponent is fast and powerful enough.
Or I need to have not only FH killer shot but BH as well to at least show aggression from my BH to not to allow him play freely through my BH - he returns pretty simple to my BH when wants to buy some time.
Thus I came to idea to make my BH powerful shots more consistent and working on that.
Sometimes works well, sometimes does not.

With this part I agree :
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

If there was any improvement to make it would be more on footwork and FH imo. But as Alamiyan has proven, with a strong BH you don't even need any FH stroke to play at a high level lol
My FH is pretty strong but need to utilize it better and thus need better footwork to do that.
For BH as well.
And for receives as well.
Overall - I know how to move only close to table (there are not so many options - so easy - see the ball try to get there or at least reach it stretching the hand :)  ).
When started to train with bigger shots from BH saw very awkward moves from my side on video and yes - trying to work on footwork but there is not so much of improvement.

About my banana - it's not so much spinny or speedy as appeared easy to attack actually - this guy showed it. So against him I needed to do it not in tempo I used to, but tried to do it faster and thus risked pretty much and he caught me couple of times with longer serves because of that. 
Overall I liked to play against him - pink glasses were broken.


Edited by Valiantsin - 12/14/2022 at 1:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:05am
anyway Valiantsin has a very good BH and BH chiquita, it's funny to see him say stuff about "not enough consistency and speed" with his BH.... guy even goes to the FH side to chiquita FH short balls (which I generally never dare to do for fear of getting aced on the deep BH), and generally wins points when he gets the killer BH in. 

If there was any improvement to make it would be more on footwork and FH imo. But as Alamiyan has proven, with a strong BH you don't even need any FH stroke to play at a high level lol
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:02am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.
Hi - did not get what you meant by this phrase.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm just nitpicking that the terminology you mentioned (pronating forearm for a BH loop) is just a plain scientifically incorrect observation.
Lol :) 
I just state that you are making  a plain scientifically incorrect observation that I was wrong in using that terms :) 
But I do not care :) 
BTW to check whether it's pronation or supination you need 2 pictures - start point and end point - then it will become obvious for you that you were making wrong conclusion :) 

If you indeed used pronation for power - the end position should be in a pronated position and not a supinated position and you would be seeing your knuckles (from your point of view) instead of your palm. 

I know you're opening racket angle prior to hitting the ball for better ease of lifting the backspin but you're definitely not pronating during the stroke (nobody at a high level does pronation when hitting the ball in the BH stroke period...) 


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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2022 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The old one has a stiffer wrist than the new one, so I don't agree with you it has more rotation, and arguably the new one is still too stiff.  But you know what you are doing, I am just pointing out the technical limitation that would make it easier for someone at a higher level to play against.
To ensure that the old one has more spin check following:
Old one - is "classic" - supination in wrist  - so extra spin produced with + of supination; Thus the ball flies back from the RB worse - additional arc makes ball to fly more to bottom and returns back not so stably - worse for the exercise - but does not matter - just shows us that it has more spin.

New one - is "modern" - pronation in wrist - no extra spin produced; Thus the ball flies from RB better  - as no much spin - the arc does not go down till the RB and thus the ball flies back better with less underspin.

About too stiff - I constantly change the grip for proper situations to have enough amplitude to make stroke - when need banana - make more BH-ish grip, when attack from FH - change it to be more FH-ish.

If you check the game - will see that it seems in game that it's too loose actually :)

Got it.  I don't see the supination in the first video but I probably need to look closer.  When I see the banana, it might make sense, but in the game, the quality problem was the same, but against a 2500, I guess it won't matter.  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm just nitpicking that the terminology you mentioned (pronating forearm for a BH loop) is just a plain scientifically incorrect observation.
Lol :) 
I just state that you are making  a plain scientifically incorrect observation that I was wrong in using that terms :) 
But I do not care :) 
BTW to check whether it's pronation or supination you need 2 pictures - start point and end point - then it will become obvious for you that you were making wrong conclusion :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

I know what is what :) 
Moreover can proof it with pictures from video - but I do not need it cause I do not care :) 

Lol - I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your observation/advice - I'm just nitpicking that the terminology you mentioned (pronating forearm for a BH loop) is just a plain scientifically incorrect observation. I think a more accurate description would be that you pronated more during the backswing to open the racket angle up, not that you pronated while hitting the ball. 

See end position screenshot here - it is quite clear that in your end position the palm is facing you - hence you're in a supinated position and supinated to get to that point:

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:32pm
I know what is what :) 
Moreover can proof it with pictures from video - but I do not need it cause I do not care :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It looks like you're simply opening the bat angle more in the "new" BH variant, but really you're supinating in both cases - otherwise it wouldn't look the way it is looking now (your BH rubber will be facing towards yourself if you really did pronate instead of supinate)
To understand whether it's pronation or supination you should check the bones of the wrist at start point and at the end point of motion - it's possible to do even with this quality of video.
And 1 more thing :) 
I do not care to much in ensuring you in all that stuff (supination or pronation is used) - what I do care  - it's to give and advice to topic starter.
The advice is an exercise which can help.

While something like "you should use more wrist" or "you should play faster - just out of bounce" is just a gathering of statistics but not and advice.
You can not tell yourself - play faster and start playing faster. 
Only specific additional exercise can help.
IMHO :) 

Forearm pronation and supination is an objective scientific term lol...

Using pronation in the context of a BH loop is plain misleading imo.

If you can see your knuckles/back of the hand, it is in a pronated position. If you can see your palm it is in a supinated position. The fact is that in all your BHs you end in a position where you can see your palm -> which is a supinated position and meant that you supinated to reach that position. 
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It looks like you're simply opening the bat angle more in the "new" BH variant, but really you're supinating in both cases - otherwise it wouldn't look the way it is looking now (your BH rubber will be facing towards yourself if you really did pronate instead of supinate)
To understand whether it's pronation or supination you should check the bones of the wrist at start point and at the end point of motion - it's possible to do even with this quality of video.
And 1 more thing :) 
I do not care to much in ensuring you in all that stuff (supination or pronation is used) - what I do care  - it's to give and advice to topic starter.
The advice is an exercise which can help.

While something like "you should use more wrist" or "you should play faster - just out of bounce" is just a gathering of statistics but not and advice.
You can not tell yourself - play faster and start playing faster. 
Only specific additional exercise can help.
IMHO :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2022 at 9:19pm
It looks like you're simply opening the bat angle more in the "new" BH variant, but really you're supinating in both cases - otherwise it wouldn't look the way it is looking now (your BH rubber will be facing towards yourself if you really did pronate instead of supinate)

The old one you're still contacting upper half of the ball and relying more on brute force brushing to overcome the underspin which is indeed the "old" way of doing BH opening loop. 

Imo the open angle BH opening loop against heavy underspin (your "new" approach) is similar to the BH philosophy of Darko Jorgic and Tomokazu Harimoto and is a better approach for the BH against underspin for many reasons. Firstly you're almost immune to extremely heavy backspin as you simply open the racket angle and convert the incoming backspin to your own topspin, whereas with the more closed angle, if your opponent has better spin production capability you'll be overwhelmed by the backspin and have to compromise on body position to loop it. Secondly, the set up time is a lot less as it's easier to execute (you can even make the backswing even shorter than what you have now), you can in fact take the ball on the rise easily like what you do for topspin. Thirdly it requires less arm power as you're borrowing from the incoming underspin rather than working against it - resulting in a smoother, more consistent stroke. Finally, because there's less upwards movement required it's easier to transition to the next ball (which will be topspin). The tradeoff, like what you identified correctly, is less spin, but I'll take that trade any time of the year. 

Both my BH and FH opening loop off backspin is based on such a philosophy. If you're looping everything early it creates quite an oppressive game for your opponent. 

On the FH the closest comparison I thought of is Sun Yingsha/Ma Long who employs the open angle FH against underspin on one hand, and Timo Boll/Zhang Jike on the other end who "brute force" spins the ball with a more closed angle. I think the brute force spin approach has some merits but requires a lot of explosiveness and power to execute - not everyone can be so physically gifted. Open angle approach is simply easier and more reliable imo.


Edited by blahness - 12/13/2022 at 9:48pm
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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