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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 2:02am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.
Hi - did not get what you meant by this phrase.

Because you don't have a range of wrist motion, the equality comes from your upper arm usage and that is usually very visible.  You can't play a backhand like say Liam Pitchford or even Ma Long or Fan Zhendong - you have no wrist leverage.  You are a good player for sure, I am just pointing out a technical limitation of your approach - the backhand gives you less because the backswing gives you less because you don't get much whip on the backswing.
:) You compared me with guys from another planet :) 
For me I think my BH when becomes really stable (i.e. I will make in a row 50-70 strokes of a good level against RB without loosing the ball in series in this exercise against topspin RB) will be good till level of 2400-2500 
:) :) It seems it's obviously that I have some other limitations like for example blahness mentioned - too much of additional weight that will not allow me to get to that level (and many others - but this one I consider as a main one) 
So basically this BH will be more than I even can have in best case :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 2:17am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Tbh your banana flick is pretty strong - I wouldn't want to deal with it in a match and would be aiming to jam it as much as I can. The issue in your match is that you were only banana flicking one type of spin and placement which made it easy for him to anticipate. If you did the short spinny chiquita, and also occassionally the chiquita towards his FH, and mixed the sidespin / topspin proportions (there's even a chiquita that produces side-underspin if you wanted to really mess with your opponent's head) it'll make his life hell trying to decipher all the variations. 
You know - I do not have much of experience to play against such strong guys.
Last time I played against similar rating guy was against Yinka Olasoji (he is also around 2500) that time I could not even make myself to attack at all from my BH.
After that started trainings to utilize pattern serve + attack.
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Your FH is pretty strong when you get it in, but there's a lot of errors and also you're not getting in a good position for the next shot if it's blocked - mostly due to weak positioning of the feet - you're not getting into the "power" position which the FH requires. 
Yes - I need better patterns and better footwork for them.
But it all need time and ability to train - not all I can train without practice partner - far from all actually.

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It could also be because of your weight - if you were lighter it would be easier to move faster. Usually heavier players choose a much more compact FH stroke sacrificing some power for continuity (basically minimal arm movement with most of the incoming power coming from weight transfer) so that they can get in position faster. The other thing is fast shuffling of the feet and increasing your frequency of steps instead of one big lunge which leaves you unbalanced).

Yes - my weight is a stumbling block for me :(
I try to deal with it from time to time - but have no much success with that :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2022 at 4:57am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:


Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It could also be because of your weight - if you were lighter it would be easier to move faster. Usually heavier players choose a much more compact FH stroke sacrificing some power for continuity (basically minimal arm movement with most of the incoming power coming from weight transfer) so that they can get in position faster. The other thing is fast shuffling of the feet and increasing your frequency of steps instead of one big lunge which leaves you unbalanced).

Yes - my weight is a stumbling block for me :(
I try to deal with it from time to time - but have no much success with that :(

You can watch how some other heavier weight players deal with that (Sun Mingyang, Liang Jingkun, etc...). I think their strokes are usually super compact and they make their attacks really count. 

Or just cut carbs and lose the weight haha, I once lost 10kg in 2 months doing just that!
-------
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:58am
What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 9:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.


Edited by Valiantsin - 12/16/2022 at 9:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 11:22am
It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.


Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168


Edited by NextLevel - 12/16/2022 at 11:28am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.


Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168
First 2 videos - Fan is using modern techniques - none classic flower.
Third video - Liam shows exactly what should be done https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=173.
Dan does shorten, more modern variant https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=216
Could you please clarify what you mean by using ancient techniques?
And tell please more wide about what to your mind I am doing wrong in BH?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 2:06pm
I like what does Liam here : https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=269
BTW there is interesting situation:
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=408
First 3 shots Liam is making "flower" while next 3 shots he is doing in modern technics - more focused, more consistent, more powerful, but yes - less spinny.
I advice you to look at 1/4 speed of a movie - it allows to see pretty much to be able to analyze.


Edited by Valiantsin - 12/16/2022 at 2:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

Analysing Dan's technique - his elbow is in the exact same position from start to finish which means he's not engaging his lats for extra power (you see the elbow go to the right and even sometimes backwards in a clockwise rotation in all top players). Also there's no weight transfer, also an incredibly important part of power production. They only analysed surface level stuff like use of wrist which is just lame imo.


Edited by blahness - 12/16/2022 at 7:32pm
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.


Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168
First 2 videos - Fan is using modern techniques - none classic flower.
Third video - Liam shows exactly what should be done https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=173.
Dan does shorten, more modern variant https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=216
Could you please clarify what you mean by using ancient techniques?
And tell please more wide about what to your mind I am doing wrong in BH?


You dont use the wrist the esy they do to get an aggressive stroke.  Ancient techniques is my exaggeration of your classic backhand statement.  That said, if you think you are doing what Liam and Fan are doing , that is okay.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:49pm
Many coaches show that old is old and not to use that as it gives less control (motion is less focused): 
Here is how to study BH smash/drive in modern way:
Here is how to properly study banana
Overall tendency for BH - shorter + faster instead or more rotative but slower.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  
Agree - I almost do not have problem with hand motion (except I do know what exactly I do and use pronation and supination depending on proper things - but does not matter :) :) )
What I have problems with - is movement.
That's why I often times do strokes just with hand instead of proper usage of technics-  then the ball flies somehow but the quality is poor.
What more worse is that without proper movement to the stroke I can not go to the next position well - and often times just can not deal with incoming ball if it returns.
Fat + bad patterns of movement and that's it - my BH looses 70% of how much deadly it could be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  
Agree - I almost do not have problem with hand motion (except I do know what exactly I do and use pronation and supination depending on proper things - but does not matter :) :) )
What I have problems with - is movement.
That's why I often times do strokes just with hand instead of proper usage of technics-  then the ball flies somehow but the quality is poor.
What more worse is that without proper movement to the stroke I can not go to the next position well - and often times just can not deal with incoming ball if it returns.
Fat + bad patterns of movement and that's it - my BH looses 70% of how much deadly it could be.

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 
The answer is easy: for first 2 years I trained + played in a small room.
It gives many limitations.
To win in a small room you should have powerful and pretty consistent strokes.
You do not necessarily need to have good movement as there is not much place to move actually.
So the pattern to win there is simple - be first to attack and return ball as much inconveniently as possible.
But that "inconveniently" is not such difficult in good gyms with enough place if your opponent fast enough :) 
And the strokes quality becomes somehow not "killing" enough :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2022 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 
The answer is easy: for first 2 years I trained + played in a small room.
It gives many limitations.
To win in a small room you should have powerful and pretty consistent strokes.
You do not necessarily need to have good movement as there is not much place to move actually.
So the pattern to win there is simple - be first to attack and return ball as much inconveniently as possible.
But that "inconveniently" is not such difficult in good gyms with enough place if your opponent fast enough :) 
And the strokes quality becomes somehow not "killing" enough :) 

Yeah that explains a lot. I feel like the best footwork tutorials I found online are all in Chinese, by a guy called 米粒乒乓, and the ideas he teaches are nowhere to be found in any English tutorials so far. The concept he always teaches is to use multiple small adjustment steps, not one step to reach the ball. The idea is that you don't want to commit your body weight onto any foot too early lest your anticipation is wrong and you get caught flat footed. For eg even when you can reach a middle short ball in 1 step you should still take 3 steps instead so that you can still watch the ball like a hawk in the meantime and adjust in case your anticipation is wrong. You only commit to a stroke (plant your weight on a foot) once you're sure, and by the time you can no longer adjust much, so you better plant the foot in a good position for hitting it. This way you don't "commit" early, which removes a lot of assumptions you need to make before hitting, also you get more information about the trajectory which reduces errors, and maybe your opponent will make a positioning error which you can exploit (for eg pivoting too early). After hitting any shot you should continue doing the left right left right stepping/shuffling in order to "find" the best position in relation to what your opponent can do.

One advantage of the new horrible WTT side view is the footwork angle. I watched some Ma Long games and he definitely takes a lot more steps than a lot of ppl realise. 
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2022 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2022 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.
SSSS :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2022 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 12:53am

Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 


Edited by blahness - 12/18/2022 at 12:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 1:19am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....

Of course you don't need to create spin with the wrist.  All advanced players just do it.  No not just Timo Boll. All of them.  The body is far more important but watch the degree of wrist snap driven by the backswing of any top player's strokes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 1:24am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 
with all due respect this doesnt address anything I have written.

Look at the very first shot that Fan hits.  Look at his backswing.   Valiantsin foesnt have anything close to that.  

I get that the body usage is different and I am not even arguing or debating that. But sometimes you can see when there is a limit of what is getting transmitted to the racket.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 3:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....

Of course you don't need to create spin with the wrist.  All advanced players just do it.  No not just Timo Boll. All of them.  The body is far more important but watch the degree of wrist snap driven by the backswing of any top player's strokes. 

Now you finally say that the body is far more important - yes it is and this is exactly why Dubina's stroke is incapable of reaching the very high power levels - it simply lacks a few critical power generation mechanisms by the large muscle groups. The wrist is probably the weakest mechanism - it only needs to go along with the ride (which is what you're seeing in most top players). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 3:31am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 
with all due respect this doesnt address anything I have written.

Look at the very first shot that Fan hits.  Look at his backswing.   Valiantsin foesnt have anything close to that.  

I get that the body usage is different and I am not even arguing or debating that. But sometimes you can see when there is a limit of what is getting transmitted to the racket.



Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 5:01am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 
I guess it would be great to have video which will have proper explanation on what really happens to avoid the myths of "wrist" motion.
At the same time it will become more clear on how actually the stoke can happen in different situations
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brands77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:17am
Valiantsin, Thanks for the follow up to my initial post. You are way, way better than I. I have no idea what my usatt rating is as I am from uk, but I have only just started playing in the bottom division of my local tt league. I am winning about 50% of my matches though.

My problems I think are multiple, but if it is any help to any other lower standard players like myself. the big thing that made a difference for me, was footwork. I thought I was ok on my feet, but that was when i was 15 when I last played. Now I am 60 I am not as fast on my feet at all. I tend to plant myself for the shot at the start of the rally and I don't anticipate until too late. I have worked hard on this, moving early and try to move back to the centre line without thinking.
For me this has been the thing that has helped the most.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:39am
Agreed Valiantsin.....great idea Thumbs Up

It would be great to have a "Saved" thread with video and a clear explanation in plain language for the players which everyone can understand in a very simple straightforward way.

People tend to learn in very different ways especially later adult learners or the very young. Nextlevel etc and the other good journeyman players/coaches/Practice partners who have helpled tons of fledgling players will hopefully agree that sometimes things click different ways for different people. This can be because of age, size, or injury maybe or starting levels.

Soooo... it really must breach those issues. You can't expect the masses  of people to understand scientifically correct terms if they have no base to work from. Also there is the other slight issue of almost forcing scientifically correct terms on players. Exanding knowledge is amazing but in a way that the masses can understand and benifit from would be even better.

Non of us here are playing Chinese/Euro super league.... after all....If anyone is....can I have tickets or a crafty bit of kit Smile No really it would be good...

It must of course explain these terms in the simplest way so a newer players isn't overly confused by complicated scientifically correct terms and can grasp these scientifically correct terms while being easy to understand. Especially if these are younger or very new to the game.

It a great idea honestly.

Any takers to get this off the ground? Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:44am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 
I guess it would be great to have video which will have proper explanation on what really happens to avoid the myths of "wrist" motion.
At the same time it will become more clear on how actually the stoke can happen in different situations

Table tennis is a weird sport. Every other sport like badminton and tennis already have incredibly scientific, detailed biomechanical description of what is involved in every aspect of the stroke. In particular, nobody talks about "wrist movement" in badminton, they use the correct terminology ie forearm pronation and supination lol. 

Tbh this is not new in the Chinese circles, they call it 小臂内旋(forearm pronation) and 小臂外旋 (forearm supination). I once asked my ex-Chinese provincial player about the secret to his incredible amount of BH spin, and he did tell me once it was all about the supination and good use of body.

I have some beef with this issue because most coaches tell you to "use the wrist", and never tell you in what particular way they mean (there's 2 planes to wrist movement - radial/ulnar deviation plane, and flexion/extension. Pronation/supination doesn't come from the wrist but is a forearm action. 
So when a coach says "use the wrist" it becomes a 1/3 chance that the student will know what the correct movement is lol. 




Edited by blahness - 12/18/2022 at 6:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:00am
Originally posted by brands77 brands77 wrote:

Valiantsin, Thanks for the follow up to my initial post. You are way, way better than I. I have no idea what my usatt rating is as I am from uk, but I have only just started playing in the bottom division of my local tt league. I am winning about 50% of my matches though.

My problems I think are multiple, but if it is any help to any other lower standard players like myself. the big thing that made a difference for me, was footwork. I thought I was ok on my feet, but that was when i was 15 when I last played. Now I am 60 I am not as fast on my feet at all. I tend to plant myself for the shot at the start of the rally and I don't anticipate until too late. I have worked hard on this, moving early and try to move back to the centre line without thinking.
For me this has been the thing that has helped the most.
Hello Brands.
For those who is 15 years old it makes sense to make a video of the game and also look and see what is their footwork level.
I am not speaking only about those little mini jumps for more precise adjustment but overall footwork - game without the ball.
It should be patterns of movement, should be some anticipation (it's actually experience + quality of your own shots prior to opponent return) and yes - finally little adjustments.
without last one - still possible to play - bright example is:
but without first 2 - no.
This level not sure if can be trained - but proper patterns still exist and good coach can train you them.
Myself have not so many patterns but still using them when not lazy/have enough energy.
2 of them are: 
1) service + 3d ball attack
2) bh + move to fh winner
There are very many other good patterns - but to work on all of them you need to have practice partner (better if it's a coach or coach is somewhere near to look and fix errors) and time.
It's better to work on not so many patterns but to implement them good then to work on many and implement it badly.
IMHO of course.
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