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Blocking Advice? |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14845 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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Fixed. I wonder if others were able to open them? -Larry Hodges
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Member, USATT Hall of Fame USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee www.TableTennisCoaching.com www.MDTTC.com |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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... just the first one was accessible (the kid teaching how to block)
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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tack_and_grip
Member Joined: 05/19/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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Hey Larry, I'm finding the passive block too sensitive to touch, especially when the incoming ball is very spinny. So I've been trying out the active block. Is the idea to engage the topsheet and/or sponge to "rebound" the spin and use the dwell time to direct the ball back with a slight forward motion? Should I also graze the ball to counter the incoming spin? For fast (and spinny) loops, should I also prevent the ball from hitting too much into the blade? Thanks.
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BeaverMD
Gold Member Joined: 11/09/2007 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Very, very true. The slow-ish, high arc heavy topspin although still a big weapon for me is not as potent as it used to be. Definitely, the juniors are not afraid to step around to their FH and put that stuff away. Or sometimes, BH loopkill Kreanga style. Against my freakin' super spinny loop! The nerve of these youngsters! But not until I switched to Tenergy that I realize what they are doing is now much easier due to Tenergy's (and other SGE rubbers like Rakza) shot absorption. With the 38, they would have popped the ball towards the ceiling. You don't even have to do a spinny opening loop against push nowadays. Go straight to the loopkill. Disconcerting it is, my friend. But great observation.
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nathanso
Super Member Joined: 11/22/2008 Location: RedwoodCity, CA Status: Offline Points: 431 |
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Since nothing has been mentioned about equipment I'll add this: Different inverted rubbers have widely different reactiveness to incoming spin. The worst for blocking are highly influenced by the incoming spin (e.g loops pop way up; sidespin careens off the table) while the best are influenced by the incoming spin far less. The trick is finding an inverted rubber that can impart great spin from your stroke style but not be overly reactive to spin from your opponent. Low-throw rubbers tend to do better at this in my experience.
As a natural blocker and heavy EJ I've tried many rubbers over the past 5-6 years. Standouts for off-the-bounce blocking are: Xiom Omega IV Elite; Xiom Sigma II Pro, Haifu Blue Whale II (soft), Tenergy 25, Palio Blitz. You'll want a stiff, thick, fast blade to be an effective blocker. Balsa-cored blades 8-10mm are good for this style of play. Skinny 5 and 7-ply blades are not. But note that equipment alone won't make you an effective blocker. The technique requires good read on the ball and a delicate touch to be able to take energy (impact as well as spin) off the ball to return it with placement and pace. Racket angle isn't everything. |
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BBC, SP, LP
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Skyline
Premier Member Joined: 07/01/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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I don't want to sound harsh but equipment is irrelevant in this discussion. You can block with any inverted rubber and the basic principles stay the same. It's same like saying that you have to use tenergy to use a spinny loop. Ofcourse it might be easier to play a spinny loop with tenergy but it starts with good technique. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14845 |
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Many blockers use Tenergy 05, nathanso (myself included). Don't overthink this.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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What determines whether a rubber is high or low throw?- its friction capabilities. what determines its ability to generate spin?- its friction capabilities. We must conclude therefore that low throw and very strong spin are incompatible |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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It pretty much doesn't matter what equipment you use, at various times you have to be able to execute a block, and there is a technique to it, just like any other shot. Most shakehand players probably wouldn't want to build their game around that shot or use that as the basis for equipment choice.
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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...not necessarily, as friction is a surface property only, but the amount of spin imparted can be a function of the sponge, and/or (and most appropriately) of the topsheet-sponge combo, and how they work in tandem. The blade is a big part, too... the whole racket. Thus, I offer that the discussion of the stroke techniques/footwork etc. is the most relevant thing that can be discussed here. For me, equipment suggestions covering the entire setup, and how to use it, are also of value as I am a mediocre player who increasingly enjoys winning by playing a good blocking game.
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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DDreamer
Silver Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 668 |
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Did you read above? - "It pretty much doesn't matter what equipment you use, at various times you have to be able to execute a block, and there is a technique to it, just like any other shot" and - "I don't want to sound harsh but equipment is irrelevant in this discussion. You can block with any inverted rubber and the basic principles stay the same." |
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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DDreamer
Silver Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 668 |
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I don't quite understand as there is nothing to discuss regarding equipment here (other than the obvious - that you will probably find blocking a little easier if your blade is not too fast).
Edited by DDreamer - 05/24/2014 at 11:03am |
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Could you please correct how you quote my words? Thank you.
Edited by JacekGM - 05/24/2014 at 1:25pm |
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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I am afraid this is just not even sensible. Spin is a function of the rubbing of the surfaces of rubber and ball. inescapably if its high throw it will be good spin, and Low throw lesser spin. If sponge or blade qualities contribute to, or detract from the spin they will show in the throw in proportion Edited by pingpongpaddy - 05/24/2014 at 2:26pm |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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CRISS CROSS BLOCKING PLAY the best winning play specially designed to dominate the sport in far remotel prospetcs.. I am the Originator and hot gospeller of the CC style. Robotic massive drills is the how can you obtain superior mastery of the blockings. Muscular Reactivity is the most essential physical faculty you need. Good luck. Draw up the "magic line" as shown, mid your court, and set the robot to deliver balls right onto the line. There is yet more and more to tell about how to obtain CC superior Mastery. Still, I would prefer to keep silence, it is my intellection's product, my secretive weapon priceless. I need a fresh gun meat, I need an infant prodigy, speedster with superior muscular reactivity, a snake of a boy. Nationality no matter. Yes.. |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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PPP, I am afraid you had written that a rubber's friction capabilities decide about it's high or low throw and about it's ability to generate spin. What I wrote as a response was that a rubber's sponge is also important in generating spin on strokes. Do you still find it not sensible what I wrote? |
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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You guys kind of have it right, but there is more to creating spin than friction. If it was just a matter of friction then spin would be determined solely by the tangential paddle speed and all decent rubbers would generate the same spin. Spin is determine by how much the top sheet stretches across the surface and snaps back. The snapping back adds to the tangential surface speed and generates extra spin. It should be obvious that the sponge must let the top sheet stretch and aid the top sheet in returning to its normal position without absorbing too much energy. Oh, and yes, sponges absorb energy and don't generate it.
I still don't know why you guys talk in terms of throw angle when you can't really define it or what determines of the throw angle is high or low. The ratio of spin to speed is good enough. Back to blocking. You can block with anything. It is easier to block with slower and less spinny rubbers if you are only worried about getting the ball back on the table. Blocking with T05 requires a more active approach. The paddle must be angled much more to compensate for incoming spin but what is nice about T05 is that an fast incoming loop will return with a lot of topspin that will help keep the ball on the table. Why does this happen? Because the top spin will push the top sheet of the T05 down but when the top sheet rebounds the ball's spin will be reversed and go back as top spin even though the blocker didn't make an active stroke. There is a Pathfinderpro video that shows this. The higher the ability to generate spin the more the paddle must be angled to compensate for that spin. Another trick is when to block. I don't agree with those that say on should block off the bounce. The reason why is that if the ball contacts the paddle below the net then the ball must rise to go over the net. If the ball is still rising as it goes over the net the ball will either go long or bounce high so the attacker has yet another easy ball to attack. However, if the blocker waits too long and hits the ball at the peak then the returned ball will bounce up about 0.8 of the contact height. Blocking a ball that has bounced up 15 inches means that it will bounce up 12 inches on the opponents side give or take a bit. For best results balls should be blocked when they rise just a little bit higher than the net so the ball can be hit low and flat over the net. Good SP players figure this out by trial and error. If the ball goes over the the net horizontally 7 inches above the table the ball will only bounce up about 80% of that height. This means the other guy will have to hit the ball up over the net or loop it to keep the ball low. Now the blocker's goal is to hit the ball low and flat over the net so the other guy can't loop the ball. |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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tt4me, +1.
However, as per "It is easier to block with slower and less spinny rubbers if you are only worried about getting the ball back on the table. " - who wants to achieve just that? I want to devastate the opposition when I block!
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14845 |
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TT4me,
Blocking early is often what is meant by "off the bounce". Perhaps a better phrase is "on the rise" and don't let the ball get too high or the angles are tricky to adjust for without practice which is hard to simulate. One of the most common mistakes that people make is that they block with the same angle and position against spinny balls, whether they are early or late. When they are early, the spin takes less and the angle can be more open. When they are late, the racket is harder to keep above the elbow while coming forward and the balls rise often affects the angle of incidence, leading to bad blocks. Since we are discussing blocking with modern inverted, short pips are interesting but not truly comparable as they don't react as much to spin. You can often block below the net with inverted and get a loop-like ball if the incoming ball has heavy enough topspin. I remember seeing a 2300 junior looping to his coach and all she did was cover the ball without forward motion at a below 30 degree horizontal angle to make him have to generate enough topspin to get another ball loop. Edited by NextLevel - 05/25/2014 at 10:00am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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If by this you mean that its possible to have low throw and high spin concurrently (or high throw and less spin)then I disagree with you. Whether or not sponge qualities can effect the friction performance of the rubber is a separate issue. The sponge might increase or lessen the spin but at the same time it will increase or lessen the throw, because both spin and throw result from the rubber brushing the ball. |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14845 |
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It's quite possible to have high spin and low throw. The real issue is whether it can be done with low ball speeds and with/without parabolic trajectories.
Edited by NextLevel - 05/25/2014 at 10:15am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Its common sense. If the rubber grips the ball enough to spin the ball, it is also gripping it enough to throw it up.
To believe otherwise, is to set aside facts which can easily be verified by simply by bouncing a ball on a bat in the commonest test known for deciding how spinny a setup is. But I am not going to pursue it further, as constant repetition makes for boring threads |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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unkn0wn0ne
Member Joined: 05/25/2014 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Some issues to consider (from what I have heard.... I don' block unless I am caught at table as I think I am a bad blocker and tend to chop and lob-loop exclusively):-
The combination of blade, (re)glue, sponge & top-sheet also may have effects on block behavior. A carbon blade may be the stiffest and blade alone may be stable and great for blocking especially fact punch blocking right off the bounce (almost relooping) . An arylate or Kevlar blade may not be that stiff as carbon but may be next best for power punch blocking. Non composite blades in general may have relatively more flex and smaller sweet spots though there are stiff non-composite blades available but heavier maybe but then again the heavier the blade , it may be better for blocking . Soft and / or reglued sponge has lot more dwell time and probably create more outgoing reversed top spin when blocking against incoming topspin or generated top-spin against incoming smash. I personally have most problems blocking against smashes with little spin and so afraid of them and tend to back up and chop against hitters which only compounds the problem LOL It may not be a good idea to block mid-bounce (when spin is maximum) .and ball is rising ??? and better to block right off the bounce or when the ball starting to drop . Some top positional parasitic blockers (who became so not by choice but maybe because they are big and or slow on their feet) can cleverly position themselves 2 or 3 feet from table and block forever. They are parasitic because they feed of opponents’ spin and speed and use it against them by angling the ball and running the opponents all over the place laterally till they eventually miss. I was also told to let the ball meet the racket at the bottom (closest point on racket from floor) and let the ball ride up entire length of the racket to control incoming topspin better but then watching some of the best of the best like Waldner…….they seem to block with an open racket ……………..and Desmond Douglas another great blocker ….I have no freaking idea what he is doing (may be neither does he himself probably LOL) and used to drive opponents crazy. Bohm seemed to another great blocker. Eric Boggan had that sick block where he would take a full blown opponent’s loop and drop it totally dead inches over net (using the anti side same color LOL) The touch block or muffle (wrong word ???) block or drop block is where you absorb all incoming spin or speed by slightly pulling back racket rapidly during contact. I assume this would create a no spin return or a return even with some slight back spin ? Of course the best weapon is the side chop block and even better one is the reverse side chop block in which the ball has heavy back spin and side spin. If you can mix this up with regular blocks it is even more effective. Some Seemiller or penhold grip players can create some very heavy side blocks (but not side chop block). Kim Taek Soo used to have a sick side block. Seems to me that most pros use a less tacky top-sheet to prevent problems from blocking since any topsheet that will create more spin will also react equally negatively against incoming spin. But with reglued sponge pros control their blocks better.(In early 70’s Chinese came up with heavy top-sheet spin but Europeans (Hungarians . Yugoslavs) answered with reglued sponge spin in late 70 s) . Does anyone really block anymore anyway LOL . It seems they all back up 4 to 5 feet and counter-loop the crap out of the ball from both wings, forehand & backhand |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Not many players of any standard build their game around blocking, especially shakehand players. This "priceless secret weapon" that Igor thinks can be the basis of a high level game is fairly well contradicted by long experience of what actually works in modern table tennis, which is why it is so secret (i.e. nobody has actually seen it work)-----and also probably why he whines so much about rubbers thicker than 1.6 mm, composite blades, modern serves, Tenergy, Chinese players, and pretty much all of modern table tennis. A lot of rallies do have counter-looping, especially at higher levels. I find it beautiful. But watch more closely the shots that aren't quite so spectacular but still essential even among the top 5 players in the world. Every player has to be able to execute a block from time to time. If you can't execute a block reliably you need to learn how, and it should not matter what equipment you are using. And there Igor has it right. Practice and a little coaching go a long way. |
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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Yes, the same force that creates spin also will move the ball tangentially as well as spin the ball.
However, if we define a 0 degree throw angle as angle from horizontal then the throw angle is arctan(VerticalVelocity/HorizontalVelocity). If the horizontal velocity is high relative to the vertical velocity the throw angle will still be low. This is why the spin to speed ratio is enough. Blocking just take practice. About the "just get the ball back" comment. There hasn't been much mention if where to place the ball. I find this to be key. A good block to the opponent's 'sweet spot' will still be a losing shot. Igorponger's criss cross blocker was very good at blocking to specific locations and maneuvering people at of position. Criss cross blocking seemed to be his only tool but he is very good at using it. |
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zeio
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How? From a radical standpoint, an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Work on whatever aspects of the game that put you in that awkward situation, first. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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BH-Man
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Even some advanced players with good speed and footwork fall for this.
I call it the 1-2-3 system of blocking.
1 - block to crossover with only enough pace to make them realize they can still FH attack, but don't really get their position set enough for balance/recovery
2- block to wide forehand, watch them watch the ball go by them, or watch them emergency spazz out and barely get to the ball for a weak return
3- IF ball comes back, wide BH is wide open and opponent is likely already wiped on lying on floor with two broken ankles trying to quickly recover from poor footwork move or too far a lunge.
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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I guess this is something like criss-cross blocking if you look at the # 2 and #3 block directions, but it is all setup by a weak block to middle (#1), an opponent's desire to attack while not in great position or balance.
With the 1-2-3 system, you are seeking to take advantage of an opponent's over-eagerness to FH attack.
Not everyone is brain-dead FH attack happy at all cost, and also better players with better footwork will have better balance and recovery. Even so, many who choose to power attack you down your FH line open themselves up to a crosscourt fast block ace. It is not that hard to fast block, simply get down and see the ball, hold racket firm and opponent is giving you all the pace and spin to use against him. Just get to the spot with a firm bat and when you are looking over the ball, adjusting the bat angle is instinctive. Opponent is expecting a winner and has little clue that you will block it, let alone by him for a winner.
The better players who are in good balance & position of course step around ALL the way to give then suddenly every possible angle to hit with either spin or pace. Giving up the weak block to get them in this trap can often get you trapped.
Then is goes back to what zeio is saying... why give up the gopher ball in the first place.
Still, often, it is because the opponent is doing something(s) better than we are and can pretty much do whatever (s)he wants. Sometimes, the difference in class it too much and in the end, it doesn't matter. Still, even with the big boyz, it profits you to practice effective tactics and shots, even if the match result will be an overwhelming loss.
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