Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?

I'm not by any means a superb TT player.  I've only played for a few years.  I'm really not that good (but I enjoy it).  I was very good at baseball, however, and played division I college baseball as a pitcher.  One lucky friend of mine even made a pro-ball roster (though I don't believe he ever played in a game). 

We had pitching coaches, batting coaches, etc.  Some of the guys that end up coaching were very good players... but I have to say that the only thing they were really good for were producing mass numbers of people with the same cookie cutter style.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I never learned anything from them... but by no means did I need them.  Pretty much every skill I had was self taught. 

Now, TT may be a bit different.  With pitching, there is a large benefit to having a unique form, and there are plenty of ways to get your ball to go fast and/or break sharply.  Not to mention, there is a much larger physical component that relies on your muscles. Table Tennis is probably a little bit more mechanical, where the physics heavily favor specific approaches... but I think a lot of the same principles in my example might apply.

Doing something different than other people can definitely be an advantage, and innovation only occurs through unique ideas and and individual development. 

I don't necessarily disagree that most people would heavily benefit from a coach (I probably would)... but for some people it can just lead to unnatural feeling movements that only make them worse (I've seen a lot of good ball players fall prey to this)... and you'd be surprised just how good you can get with your own techniques..  This holds true for a lot of sports, and I'm sure it holds true in TT as well..

Fruit loop wrote: .I also disagree with needing a coach for a certain type of stroke. I've taught myself and havn't had any issues. (No one uses chinese rubber at my club.)

Not everybody can coach themselves (most can't!). Kudos to you for being able to do just that, but in general, I would recommend to use a style that matches what you coach can teach you better. For example, if I was a penholder I would probably prefer a penholder teacher, etc.

AgentSmith wrote: I'm not by any means a superb TT player.  I've only played for a few years.  I'm really not that good (but I enjoy it).  I was very good at baseball, however, and played division I college baseball as a pitcher.  One lucky friend of mine even made a pro-ball roster (though I don't believe he ever played in a game).  We had pitching coaches, batting coaches, etc.  Some of the guys that end up coaching were very good players... but I have to say that the only thing they were really good for were producing mass numbers of people with the same cookie cutter style.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I never learned anything from them... but by no means did I need them.  Pretty much every skill I had was self taught.  Now, TT may be a bit different.  With pitching, there is a large benefit to having a unique form, and there are plenty of ways to get your ball to go fast and/or break sharply.  Not to mention, there is a much larger physical component that relies on your muscles. Table Tennis is probably a little bit more mechanical, where the physics heavily favor specific approaches... but I think a lot of the same principles in my example might apply. Doing something different than other people can definitely be an advantage, and innovation only occurs through unique ideas and and individual development.  I don't necessarily disagree that most people would heavily benefit from a coach (I probably would)... but for some people it can just lead to unnatural feeling movements that only make them worse (I've seen a lot of good ball players fall prey to this)... and you'd be surprised just how good you can get with your own techniques..  This holds true for a lot of sports, and I'm sure it holds true in TT as well..

fatt wrote: Rack wrote: tpgh2k wrote: cntcasey wrote: So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?   the ball ends up slipping and dies into the net without much force. it's all about the sponge for those suckers...  ...its all spin but no real power. that's called a stinky! hard to deal with those. very annoying when it's done by a guy who kind of misses his bh loop and does that as a result :) deadly like a nun's fart.

In TT, usually the unnatural moments feel unnatural because if you're self taught, you've hammered your own strokes into your muscle memory so the correct proper strokes don't feel natural which is why many coaches like to start on little kids.  No unnautral bad habits to get rid of before you program them correctly and the correct way becomes their natural way because they don't know any other way.  After you hammer bad habits to yourself... a one step easy learning experience becomes a multistep step of unlearn everything from your muscle memory and try to relearn correctly with bad habits creeping in the middle of your learning disrupting your every move.  Makes it 10x harder when you have to reprogram everything from strokes, to bad footwork, to timing one at a time then try to reassemble everything back together and make it work in harmony without any of the old stuff creeping back in.

I don't disagree that obvious "bad habits" are a great disadvantage to improving... and like I said, I'm sure TT allows for less freedom in style than other sports... but I think there is a lot more to take into consideration. 

As I mentioned in the previous post, I see a few problems with cookie cutter techniques (i.e. the technique/style of one man, passed down the same way to all his students).  They don't take into consideration the body type, flexibility, build or physical characteristics of the individual.  Everyone does it one way.  It doesn't matter if that approach is comfortable to perform, fluid, or whether or not the person is capable of performing it effectively.  When a person in any given sport teaches themselves something, they naturally gravitate away from the restrictive or physically uncomfortable motions.

There are also a lot of challenges when teaching someone else to perform a complicated mechanical motion.  I'm mostly drawing my experience from other sports (which are indeed different than TT), but many times the best way of teaching such intricate motions are more hands off approaches.  Telling someone to rotate their shoulders, then dip their arm, then rotate their wrist, etc. can often lead to confusion and misapplication of the instructions by the student.  Verbal communication is a horrible way to pass information about complicated body movements.  I've noticed the best instructors I've had would take a very general approach, and leave the rest up to the student to figure out their own way.  "Try bringing your arm more over the top", "try to stay more balanced before you move forward", etc etc.  This helps the student get a better basic idea of the proper form, while leaving it mostly up to them to achieve it.  While this type of instruction is often more helpful, these general lessons can be learned from a variety of sources (aside from a coach).  Which brings me to my final point...

There are a lot of other ways to get the information you need.    You have Books, the internet, DVDs, watching other players and even video taping yourself.  If you are a good enough self study, you probably can get access to almost all of the information you need.

Now, I do concede that most people don't learn well by themselves.. and they can do more damage than good if they develop a host of bad habits.  However, I've noticed that there are a good proportion of very skilled athletes who have gotten very far with little outside intervention.  Some of the best athletes I know have developed their own drills, their own practice routines, their own unique styles and have succeeded by developing their own understanding of the sports they play.  While many other do have coaches and individuals to give instruction to them, most will still have their own personal style and deviation that suits them.

I'm certainly no TT expert though, so I admit that my points might not hold as true here... but I've seen nothing to suggest that paying a coach is the end all or be all to success in table tennis.. If people can achieve high levels of skill in other sports without personal instruction, I don't really see why it can't happen in this sport.

AgentSmith wrote: BTW, anyone want to be brave and post a youtube video of how they approach shots with the different types of rubber?  I'm really very interested in it.

like euro rubber swing and chinese rubber swing?

tpgh2k wrote: AgentSmith wrote: BTW, anyone want to be brave and post a youtube video of how they approach shots with the different types of rubber?  I'm really very interested in it.  like euro rubber swing and chinese rubber swing?

Exactly..

I did look at the video at the top, but the angles were pretty different and it looked like the intensity was too.  I do see some obvious differences, but I was hoping for something a little bit more along the lines of a technical analysis  (a couple angles from each, side by side comparison, commentary - that sort of thing)...

In chinese forums, there's been a similar discussion of these 2 types of forehand. The wrist mechanism of producing spin is completely different, causing the outward appearance of the stroke to be different as well. For those who understand Chinese, the key is whether the wrist is 外展(bent outwards) or not.

Now as an illustration: Lift your computer mouse upwards with just your wrist while using it normally. That's bending your wrist outwards.(手腕外展） Bring it down the other direction as far as possible and it's called bending your wrist inwards(手腕内收）

I've practiced this by following instructions in Chinese forums and it's definitely not a "brush loop". It looks as if they brush due to the fact cocking your wrist outwards makes the blade face more horizontal to the ground. But when they hit the ball it's almost always perpendicular to the ground.

To practice this is very easy, Here's what I did: with your wrist bent outwards holding a mouse,  turn it left and right like a windshield wiper. (like saying hello!) That is the wrist mechanism for producing spin.

Then turn your lower arm 90 degrees clockwise to make the motion go upwards. Now hold a bat and try to spin the ball with just your wrist. As you get better at producing spin, use your arm more. And most importantly , relax!

I practiced it in front of a curtain until i can get the ball to spin very violently with just using my whole arm(no waist rotation yet). And by violently i mean the spin will cause the ball to roll up to the top of the curtain after hitting it and you can hear the ball make a pssst sound.

I just learnt this during the last 3 mths summer holiday. I'll post a video after I go back to australia.

blahness wrote: In chinese forums, there's been a similar discussion of these 2 types of forehand. The wrist mechanism of producing spin is completely different, causing the outward appearance of the stroke to be different as well. For those who understand Chinese, the key is whether the wrist is 外展(bent outwards) or not. Now as an illustration: Lift your computer mouse upwards with just your wrist while using it normally. That's bending your wrist outwards.(手腕外展） Bring it down the other direction as far as possible and it's called bending your wrist inwards(手腕内收） I've practiced this by following instructions in Chinese forums and it's definitely not a "brush loop". It looks as if they brush due to the fact cocking your wrist outwards makes the blade face more horizontal to the ground. But when they hit the ball it's almost always perpendicular to the ground. To practice this is very easy, Here's what I did: with your wrist bent outwards holding a mouse,  turn it left and right like a windshield wiper. (like saying hello!) That is the wrist mechanism for producing spin. Then turn your lower arm 90 degrees clockwise to make the motion go upwards. Now hold a bat and try to spin the ball with just your wrist. As you get better at producing spin, use your arm more. And most importantly , relax! I practiced it in front of a curtain until i can get the ball to spin very violently with just using my whole arm(no waist rotation yet). And by violently i mean the spin will cause the ball to roll up to the top of the curtain after hitting it and you can hear the ball make a pssst sound. I just learnt this during the last 3 mths summer holiday. I'll post a video after I go back to australia.

About right

i think chinese way of loop is better for spin? and euro way is more for speed?

blahness wrote: I practiced it in front of a curtain until i can get the ball to spin very violently with just using my whole arm(no waist rotation yet). And by violently i mean the spin will cause the ball to roll up to the top of the curtain after hitting it and you can hear the ball make a pssst sound. I just learnt this during the last 3 mths summer holiday. I'll post a video after I go back to australia.

Wow, that's pretty impressive.
Thanks for the illustration, big help.

blahness wrote: APW46 wrote: Bullsh*t. It is precisely this type of attitude that prevents you from learning more and improving.

 No its not, its my dismay at the drivel that gets posted by people who speculate. The whole issue of this thread is over complicated, and when it comes to learning about TT I can assure you I have been into the depths of stroke production techniques like you can only dream about.

Actually blahness's post is pretty correct (theres a few lil minor tidbits missing) for the Chinese stroke.  They actually do teach that so its definately not BS because even both of the coaches I train under teach that for those using Chinese Stroke/equipment.  My coach is rated 2400+ and his coach is a former Chinese national team member and the former chief coach of Fujian Provincial team so that wrist technique is definately not just from some "article" on some forum.

Yep I would agree with that also... wrist comes later after the basic swing foundation and tenseness issues are resolved.

Cool APW, it'll be really interesting to hear how the training differs in the UK.  But from what it sounds like, the basic structure sounds similar as it should be.  Step by step one thing at a time.