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Coachvideo on how to loop underspin with tacky rub |
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kajba
Member Joined: 04/07/2013 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 53 |
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Posted: 09/01/2013 at 3:25pm |
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Another stupid thread when I couldnt find the information I wanted. I am using tacky rubber and I have huge problems to loop heavy underspin ball and bad habits it showing. By that I mean I use movement which is half for tacky rubbers and half european rubbers which makes 80% of the time the ball doesnt go over the net.
So I just wonder if someone could make some coaching video on how to do it with multiball and stuff. |
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Appelgren Allplat V2 FH: DHS H3 NAT BH: Donic M2 BTY Viscaria FH: DHS H3 NAT BH: Mark V |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Hi Kajba the truth is, good technique will work whether your rubber is tacky or european or whatever. Part of your problem may be in attaching too much importance to theories about using japanese and european rubbers differently. I would recommend simplifying your approach. A good start might be googling PingSkills who have published excellent online video tutorials on how to play. The techniques they describe are correct and well explained. good luck |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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There are all kinds of videos like you want. Do a Google search. Another coaching site which is good is Table Tennis Master.
Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 09/01/2013 at 8:13pm |
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Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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LethalForehand
Super Member Joined: 08/25/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 129 |
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its actually true that you need different technique for chinese/euro loop. for chinese, check out the 'drill your skills' section on stiga's website
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decoi
Gold Member Joined: 09/25/2011 Location: Dublin, Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1375 |
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yeah they have a decent tutorial on looping backspin balls
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Blade: DHS Hurricane Hao
FH: TG3 BS BH: Xiom Omega 4 Aisa Blade: Hurricane Hao 2 (656) Fh: Dhs Gold Arc 3 Bh: Stiga Tour H http://www.youtube.com/user/decoyla?feature=mhee |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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As someone who has and who can use both Chinese and European rubbers on the forehand, I can confirm that the same strokes will work for both types of rubbers. The difference between Chinese and European rubbers has more to do with the degree of hardness of the sponge and how that affects catapult - grip and tack generally tend to have the same effect.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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DDreamer
Silver Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 668 |
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+1 |
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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dingyibvs
Gold Member Joined: 05/09/2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 1401 |
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Sure, you can use the same technique, but European rubbers are better utilized with a more concave loop motion rather than a more convex one with Chinese rubbers.
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Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL
FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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You can't make this stuff up... |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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DDreamer
Silver Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 668 |
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I have a concave loop and use Euro rubber but I can loop perfectly fine with Chinese rubber. For non-elite players looping backspin it really doesn't matter what rubber you use - you just need to get your technique honed correctly.
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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ZApenholder
Premier Member Joined: 03/04/2012 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4804 |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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I wonder, maybe MYTT could sponsor a training camp, where the players are split into groups:-
Euro rubber Japanese Rubber Chinese Rubber should be quite popular with a lot of our posters I wouldn't be a coach at that camp for all the tea in china! |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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No, it's not actually true. (Unless, of course, you have some concrete evidence that it's true - with video, stats and graphs, and a doctoral paper. Otherwise, you're just making this up.)
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SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
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It's basically the same stroke, although I find with a harder rubber I (tend to) loop forward more, but I can do my default loop stroke with a soft rubber and a chinese rubber.
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Re1Mu2R3
Super Member Joined: 10/23/2009 Location: Chyna Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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Just watch any Chinese vs Joo Se Hyuk match.
Should give you an idea on how the stroke is done. |
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DDreamer
Silver Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 668 |
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What about Samsonov v Joo?
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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There is a mild danger in watching pros - you sometimes don't know when they are depending on special talents and the degree of spin on the incoming ball. Just watch a basic tutorial and practice. Most of the problems with looping underspin come from timing, not starting below/behind the ball and wanting to drive it no matter how heavy it is. Those things are fixed with practice.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Re1Mu2R3
Super Member Joined: 10/23/2009 Location: Chyna Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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He specifically said looping with tacky rubbers.
I agree with this though. A friend of mine found me pretty hard to play against when I first switched to short pips. He attempted to use the same loop drive motion on wobbly and float ball pushes and got frustrated. |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Kajba
its normal to have problems against backspin unless you are quite a good player. Your problem is to make that step. find a practice partner who chops, and spend a couple of months learning slow, safe topspin. When you can go 20 shots without an error, try a bit faster, and so on. If tabletennis was easy, they would have called it Football good luck |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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DDreamer
Silver Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 668 |
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He said he uses tacky rubber but the point is that it makes no difference.
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1018 |
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when looping backspin, instead of contacting the ball at 4 o'clock with grippy rubbers (blade's angle more open), contacting the ball higher at 3 o'clock with the same stroke is better with tackiness on the topsheet. the 'time' analogy is just an example; with tackiness, the contact point on the ball is just a bit higher (the blade's angle is less open).
to be verified! (I do not have enough experience with tacky topsheets). |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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We have to up the comp package for Paddy to bait him into this job...
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
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LethalForehand
Super Member Joined: 08/25/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 129 |
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okay, lets clarify something! Are we talking about slow spinny loop of backspin balls or powerloops? When I say there is a difference between euro and chinese stroke I mean (should have made it clear) the chinese mostly powerloop backspin, with a more open racket angle, early timing and powering through the ball. This is difficult to do with a softer sponge (euro..). Just watch how timo boll lifts backspin with a late timing and how wang liqin or xu xin does that with earlier timing. clearly different.
Those who say the stroke is the same are right when we talk strictly about slow spinny topspin of backspin ball. But above a certain level powerlooping is a must, and its getting tremendouzly difficult to put speed on spinny loops with a chinese rubber. Thats why I would suggest an early timing and powerlooping to anyone serious about using chinese rubber (tacky or not, but with hard sponge) |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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dingyibvs
Gold Member Joined: 05/09/2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 1401 |
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Depends on your definition of "perfectly fine". People who use a concave stroke with classic Chinese rubbers always complain about its lack of speed, when in fact they're just not using it right. Here's an example of the differences: Both are standard drills vs. blocking, note how Ma Long uses a considerably more convex stroke.
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Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL
FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
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dingyibvs
Gold Member Joined: 05/09/2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 1401 |
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Sorry, I'm getting off topic a bit, I was discussing looping motions in general. When looping backspins there's very little technical difference between the two. It's not true that Euro rubbers can't drive. In fact, they loop drive very well and uses essentially the same motion as with Chinese rubbers.
The key to looping backspin, as NextLevel pointed out, is timing. This involves two things that newbies often neglect: 1) A backspin ball slows down upon bouncing on the table, but a newbie would often begin the stroke at a distance that's the same as if looping a blocked topspin. Then often end up looping with a more forward motion in order to hit the ball as the ball is more forward (i.e. farther away from you) than they expect. The ball consequently drops into the net. If you often find yourself having to lean forward just to hit the ball, then this is likely at least part of your problem. They try to compensate by opening up the angle more, but that decreases the brushing motion and the shot becomes very erratic, more like a hit than a loop. The solution is to either move your body forward a bit to meet the backspin ball or to wait for it to come to you a bit longer than with a blocked topspin. 2) Many players loop the ball into the net and think that the solution is to loop harder. That's not entirely correct. If you find yourself looping with all your strength with a very upward motion and the ball still falls into the net, then this is likely at least a part of your problem. The key is not to contact the ball with maximum racket speed, but with maximum racket acceleration. Do NOT begin accelerate your racket maximally until RIGHT BEFORE your racket reaches the ball. This is a very crucial point for both FH and BH loops vs. backspin. If you do this, you'll find that if you simply want to loop a backspin back, it really doesn't require a whole lot of strength. This is the reason why even 10 year old girls can loop backspins consistently. Maximum acceleration gives you maximum dwell time, this allows your racket to almost "carry" the ball forward. If you loop with maximum strength from the start if your motion, then your racket would have reached maximum speed with zero acceleration when it contacts the ball. This decreases dwell time and it's very easy for a heavy backspin ball to slip off the racket into the net. Now, for those who are reading this thread, you might wonder which advice is correct, so consider the sources. I am, for example, someone who rose from well below 1000 level to 1850 in about 1.5 years with no coaching, little training, and a very busy schedule limiting my playing time. I did so by being a student of the game. Many others developed their skills with years and years of training and playing and developed their game through unconscious muscle memory and only THEN developed theories as to why their strokes work. I, on the other hand, developed the theories first and tested them out one by one until I found the strokes that worked. If you're looking for advice on this board, then you're looking for theories that definitively leads to improvement, which are what mine are. Sorry for perhaps coming off as arrogant here, but it's easy for newbies to get overwhelmed by the sheer variety of advice given on this board and it's important for them to pick out which ones are tried and true.
Edited by dingyibvs - 09/02/2013 at 4:21pm |
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Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL
FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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Looping underspin balls is the hardest task to do..
Racket proper acceleration is the keypoint here. High speed acceleration is needed. Good luck. |
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dingyibvs
Gold Member Joined: 05/09/2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 1401 |
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Yup, cannot overstate the importance of acceleration. And do take note that it's acceleration and not necessarily speed that allows your rubber to hold onto the ball and bring it up and forward. I recommend new players to train this shot before focusing on looping vs. blocks, because you won't get a blocked topspin back if you can't make the first topspin and therefore will never get to use your beautiful looking loops in real games. If you don't master the loop vs. backspin first, you'll end up like one of those players who warm up like Tarzan but play like Jane.
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Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL
FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
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DDreamer
Silver Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 668 |
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I mean perfectly fine. Against backspin (which is the topic of the thread) I probably even slightly prefer Chinese rubber. Also, players like Xu Xin and Zhang Jike use Chinese rubber and yet appear to have a concave loop when playing heavy chop. For a beginner/intermediate player (which I presume the OP is - given that he has trouble looping heavy backspin) the type of rubber makes zero difference when it comes to learning how to loop backspin.
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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SPIN THE WHEEL ! Looping underspin balls is the hardest task to do.. THE racket proper acceleration is the keypoint here. High speed acceleration is needed. SPIN THE WHEEL! In Russia, spinning training wheel is a common exercise with table tennis students everywhere.., for most coaches here strongly believe the wheel to be the best effective device for learning how to handle backspin. You can't improve your attacking skill without taking the "wheel lessons" regularly. NOTE: playing tt-robot is of little service here. No robot can give you 50rps backspin. |
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