Coachvideo on how to loop underspin with tacky rub

assiduous wrote: We are talking about heavy backspin off the end of the table. There is no wrist in FH and very little on the BH. Some shots like ZJK's opening loop when receiving serve have wrist, but that is rarely heavy backspin, usually mixed spin and very close to the net, over the table, where wrist action is the only swing physically possible. That is different from what the OP is asking.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpXuiYap94 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlBd0LWP6lM I used to do everything with wrist when i was learning to loop. My opponents were 1500 and coulnd't block nothing and i though i had a good loop. As I started playing higher opps my loops' weakness was exposed in a very obvious, sometimes humiliating way. One day at a tournament a bulgarian professional coach told me that I used way too much wrist and my loops are soft and weak. He said if u have proper technique you don't need wrist for spin. I took me one year to redo all my loops but i am very proud now. That's when I also discovered that soft sponges suck.

To see the wrist, you have to see the finishing position of the hand and compare it to the angle at which the hand started.  If someone begins a loop with the hand pointing down and then the loop finishes with the hand pointing up, the person is using wrist.  Wrist is not an obvious thing on the forehand side.

AgentHEX wrote: Also btw you shouldn't think too much about wrist snap. It just happens if you loosen you arm for the whip stroke. Think of when you throw a ball or something really hard, your brain will know when to release it at apex of speed after acceleration. High level players basically control the apex of that throw very precisely and consistently, that's how they always hit so hard.

There only needs to be enough wrist muscle or whatever to prevent the stroke from being unstable and control/fine-tune the general direction of the hand, unless maybe some oddball player is using it for deception or somesuch odd touch shot that only uses the wrist.

Amateur players tend to develop all sorts of cockamamie theories of how to do things when the reality is often much more straightforward. Your body already knows when it maximizes speed at contact (like in practice). That's why naturally gifted athletes are pretty quick to be good at just about anything, but the rest of us need a little help to explain what's going on.

AgentHex, who is the highest rated player you have had a chance to watch train/develop?

poor op lol, why so much complication everyone should be on the same basic wavelength here

AgentHEX wrote: blahness wrote: to be frank, IMO all these convex vs concave loop is just an illusion caused by looking at the loops from a side view, try looking at them from a back view and all becomes clear. These loops have the same mechanism, the only difference is the blade angle. Ma Long and Wang Liqin loop with a very open racket angle (with an emphasis on speed), while players like Zhang Jike, Fan Zhendong and Timo Boll loop with a much more closed racket angle (with an emphasis on spin). Concave vs convex (or really should be called less-concave) is very much real. It's possible that because it's somewhat more advanced technique that folks can get to quite decent level without knowing it, but I'm pretty sure high level player have to understand it to some extent (even if just intuitively). To illustrate, consider the flip, the extreme of a concave "loop". The intent here is a high-ish spin/speed ratio to clear a low/short ball over the net. The brush contact is thin, which is why the stroke is almost like wrapping around the ball (vs the direct pounding of a non-concave drive). Because the brush is relatively thin for the speed of the contact, good touch is required (which is why it requires decent level to execute). Incidentally this is also why fast setups (low dwell) make this sort of precision touch shot harder to execute and significant part of why the players who emphasize early point control (ie CNT) use seemingly slower equipment than ideal for rally. But you are correct ball feeling is very important to do this. The statements just above demonstrate why.

Edited by dingyibvs - 09/03/2013 at 9:35pm

dingyibvs wrote: reflecx wrote: dingyibvs wrote: F=ma is ALWAYS the appropriate equation.  That blog is about how to generate the maximum F, which is not the point of discussion here.  You can worry about generating maximum force (hips, legs, and all the other things mentioned in the blog) after you've understood how to land the ball on the table first. So you're rather loop a backspin ball where at impact time your racket is moving at 0 m/s with acceleration of 10 m/s2 vs moving at 10 m/s with 0 acceleration? Sorry if it wasn't clear enough, but I think in my previous posts I mentioned that you need to have enough racket speed to overcome the spin, which I pointed out that it was of no concern since even a 10 year old girl can accomplish that.

So when does your F=ma come into play? Only when the racket speed is high enough to overcome the spin?

AgentHEX wrote: Former US #1.

If you know him personally (since you say you watched him train/develop), ask him what the role of the wrist is in table tennis.  Let us know if he says that the wrist should just be loose and that it has no active role in looping chop when forehand looping (I assume that you have no argument over the role of the wrist on the backhand side) or even in many other forehand strokes.  I would have thought Ovtcharov was a good enough resource, but let's hope that he can be trumped by a former US #1.

http://tabletennis.about.com/od/beginnersfaqs/f/wrists_pingpong.htm

Top players develop very strong wrists - that you think this is something amateurs make up speaks more to your ignorance than anything else.

Usually, people who are trying to be objective (as opposed to just insult people) read the whole post:

For players with normal wrist strength, I think that it certainly would not hurt to have stronger wrists when playing table tennis. I remember one of my past table tennis coaches used to have a wrist roller device, which was a long metal pipe with string wrapped around it, with a brick tied to the end of the string. You had to roll the brick up to the pipe, and then lower it again, using only your wrists. It was very good for strengthening your wrists while still keeping them flexible.

Why did this part of the article elude you?

To get extra speed/spin, the body has quite a few levers - feet/heels, knees, waist/abs, elbow, wrist, and last but not least, fingers.  No one has to use them all, but the stronger they all are, the easier it is to access power for speed and spin.

AgentHex wrote: What's funny here is the mouthing off despite zero clue what he's talking about. The "wrist snap" here isn't some forced wrist motion which requires extra musculature but exactly the motion at the end of a whipped loop. You can also hold the wrist still to trade off power for some extra stability if need be.

I guess at some point, one has to throw up one's hands and admit that making mountains out of molehills isn't worth it.  I think it is a bit deceptive to regard such control as letting the wrist be loose when there is a significant timing and grip element involved.  I doubt anyone who lets the wrist pronates does so without having learned to control it first.  However, since you have trained players to use your methods, I am sure they speak for themselves. 

Really? For players with normal wrist strength, I think that it certainly would not hurt to have stronger wrists when playing table tennis.

So your only point here for this pathetic attempt at a burn is "don't forget to exercise wrists, too"?

Here's a tip for nubs at this game: mockery only works well when it's attached to some apropos delivery vehicle. For example, an actual embarrassing error or somesuch. Starting with absolutely nothing makes you a pendant.

AgentHEX wrote: dingyibvs wrote: Hey look, we actually agree on something!  You can most certainly intentionally use a wristy move, I've recently started doing it, and my training partner who's so used to even my most powerful loops had a TON of trouble blocking more than 2 shots in a row.  It wasn't even by design, I changed my grip slightly so that my racket lies a bit higher now, and to make the transition easier I decided to bend my wrist down and my goodness the spin it added! If you hold your arm (which incl your hand) relatively loose, the wrist should already bend back during beginning of swing. Trying throwing something far (the reason to do this is set bad TT habits aside) and it's easy to observe. An intentionally "wristy" stroke means you're modifying this natural behavior for which there should be some compelling reason.

dingyibvs wrote: AgentHEX wrote: dingyibvs wrote: Hey look, we actually agree on something!  You can most certainly intentionally use a wristy move, I've recently started doing it, and my training partner who's so used to even my most powerful loops had a TON of trouble blocking more than 2 shots in a row.  It wasn't even by design, I changed my grip slightly so that my racket lies a bit higher now, and to make the transition easier I decided to bend my wrist down and my goodness the spin it added! If you hold your arm (which incl your hand) relatively loose, the wrist should already bend back during beginning of swing. Trying throwing something far (the reason to do this is set bad TT habits aside) and it's easy to observe. An intentionally "wristy" stroke means you're modifying this natural behavior for which there should be some compelling reason. I don't play baseball, but I do believe that pitchers intentionally cock their wrists in all sorts of ways to impart various additional spin to the ball, which incidentally is what you may achieve by doing the same thing with a TT stroke.

Don't play it either, but I think the basic hard throw (fastball) is just fast as possible down the chute. The curved ball are I suspect as you do done by cocking the hand slightly so the ball exits with a different spin, but same basic swing mechanics (same snap in same in-line direction as your hand, but obvious diff angle since you just changed it). The cocking itself isn't a power move far as physics is concerned.

Again, a full arm swing can knock a guy out. Now try slapping him with the wrist only and compare the amount of force and resulting difference.


Edited by AgentHEX - 09/04/2013 at 1:09am

The ratio of power is still the same. Even if you built some kind of super-wrist, it would have minor effect compared to arm as a whole because the range is so limited. Like mini-hammer compared to meter-long handle sledgehammer.

Rather than tag people as being "clueless" or "having no clue what they are talking about", here are a couple more experts on wrist usage.  Again, let's remember the two positions that are being debated here.  AgentHex is saying that the correct way to use the wrist is to relax it so that it is torqued by the stroke, while I am saying that while that is an option, using the wrist and developing its strength so that it actually lends more spin/speed to your stroke is another option.  I think that when someone has a strong and well timed wrist motion and he can use it in a relaxed manner, it is very easy to assume it was always part of the stroke in a relaxed manner.

Here is Larry Hodges discussing a thread on this very forum.

Use of the wrist Here's an interesting discussion of use of the wrist in table tennis. In particular see the ninth posting, which links to videos of wrist usage by "some of our sport's biggest starts." My "short" take on wrist usage? I'll quote Dan Seemiller (geez, here he is again): "When the ball is coming at you slow, use more wrist. When the ball is coming at you fast, use less wrist." Additionally, beginning players shouldn't use much wrist except on the serve and pushing. Instead, just put the wrist back and let it go through the ball naturally. As you advance, you can start using more and more wrist, especially when looping against slower balls.

I wonder whether the chop is a slower ball....

assiduous wrote: next level, where are you from? I want to challenge you to a match. I have to admit I have caught myself wrong way too often. But you simply don't have the expertise or skills or intelligence to stalk me in every thread and make condescending remarks. If you are going to do this, you really should pick someone your own level.

Hahahaha - I'm from Philly - I will come to play you anywhere - I like beating drums for fun since they make a lot of noise.