Coachvideo on how to loop underspin with tacky rub

NextLevel wrote: assiduous wrote: next level, where are you from? I want to challenge you to a match. I have to admit I have caught myself wrong way too often. But you simply don't have the expertise or skills or intelligence to stalk me in every thread and make condescending remarks. If you are going to do this, you really should pick someone your own level.  Hahahaha - I'm from Philly - I will come to play you anywhere - I like beating drums for fun since they make a lot of noise.

NextLevel wrote: Rather than tag people as being "clueless" or "having no clue what they are talking about", here are a couple more experts on wrist usage.  Again, let's remember the two positions that are being debated here.  AgentHex is saying that the correct way to use the wrist is to relax it so that it is torqued by the stroke, while I am saying that while that is an option, using the wrist and developing its strength so that it actually lends more spin/speed to your stroke is another option.  I think that when someone has a strong and well timed wrist motion and he can use it in a relaxed manner, it is very easy to assume it was always part of the stroke in a relaxed manner.

You continue to have this penchant for calling me out even though it's never worked and only resulted in hilarious embarrassment thus far. We can reasonably conclude from this that learning from mistakes is not a strength here, which would explain the plethora of them, so keep this mind as we move along.

First, as already explain several times, both the fundamental "strength" of the wrist both in terms of muscle and physics is so small compared to the arm that it matters much less in a loop (a power stroke) than you continue to figure.

Second, a common amateur mistake/tendency is that players also tense up the arm a bit more too when they try to keep the wrist locked. Again, a simple experiment was proposed many times so you can see this for yourself rather than trust in anyone's authority. Try to keep the wrist from moving at all while you make the throw and see how far you get.

Third, and this one is more of a nuanced pedagogical point so I expect the inevitably pedantic reply will attach here. When teaching something, do you teach as it would be used or slowly build step by step? This would depend on the student, capability of the teacher, and specifics of what is taught. IMO in this case, the power loop motion itself is simple enough there's no reason to go with gimpy half-measures, esp for faster learners (jr's, etc). Just swing slower/more relaxed for less power and more control. Others can disagree and that's ok because there's some level of subjective judgement here.

Use of the wrist Here's an interesting discussion of use of the wrist in table tennis. In particular see the ninth posting, which links to videos of wrist usage by "some of our sport's biggest starts." My "short" take on wrist usage? I'll quote Dan Seemiller (geez, here he is again): "When the ball is coming at you slow, use more wrist. When the ball is coming at you fast, use less wrist." Additionally, beginning players shouldn't use much wrist except on the serve and pushing. Instead, just put the wrist back and let it go through the ball naturally. As you advance, you can start using more and more wrist, especially when looping against slower balls.

No shit sherlock. Use looser arm for more power on slower balls that require addition of spin than fast ones.

AgentHEX wrote: You continue to have this penchant for calling me out even though it's never worked and only resulted in hilarious embarrassment thus far. We can reasonably conclude from this that learning from mistakes is not a strength here, which would explain the plethora of them, so keep this mind as we move along.

Edited by NextLevel - 09/04/2013 at 7:02pm

NextLevel wrote: AgentHEX wrote: You continue to have this penchant for calling me out even though it's never worked and only resulted in hilarious embarrassment thus far. We can reasonably conclude from this that learning from mistakes is not a strength here, which would explain the plethora of them, so keep this mind as we move along. Narcissism as a disorder does take many forms, including the exaggeration of the importance of one's actions.  I have not  any "mistakes" worth mentioning unless you can point out what the practical consequences of my mistakes are, other than that your perception of them bloats your ego.

Complete inaccurate idea of how a stroke works aside, this is the most recent embarrassment so #fail that not even I could imagine it to be true at first.

Try pondering the more realistic view that generally speaking I would be to you what you are to assiduous, then you might be better able to empathize with my situation.

To be clear, I'm not even claiming this to be advanced nevermind omnipotent, only that some folks' understanding can be unimaginably bad.

First, as already explain several times, both the fundamental "strength" of the wrist both in terms of muscle and physics is so small compared to the arm that it matters much less in a loop (a power stroke) than you continue to figure. I think you are taking the phrase "strength" so literally that it is clouding your judgment.  First of all, the wrist can be fatigued, so getting some strength in the helps if one uses the wrist a lot for looping and flicking.

Sure, any particular weakness in the body parts involved is not conducive to the stroke. I'm not sure why you feel this bears repeating given nobody disagrees with it.

The relative strength argument is one someone who's ever worked with numbers or any task where one thing is bigger than another should be able to figure out but it's not the first I've overestimated you.

Secondly, extra strength allows for faster torquing of the wrist.  Wrist flexibility helps quite a bit as well, so both go hand in hand.  And in terms of velocity, the wrist can pretty fast, in fact much faster the arm, making it very helpful for matching/exceeding the speed you need to loop heavy chop.

The wrist "snap" in a whip motion is not in itself torqued (ie by musculature), and in any case it's rather insignificant anyway if the reader can figure out what it means when one thing is bigger than another.

Second, a common amateur mistake/tendency is that players also tense up the arm a bit more too when they try to keep the wrist locked. Again, a simple experiment was proposed many times so you can see this for yourself rather than trust in anyone's authority. Try to keep the wrist from moving at all while you make the throw and see how far you get. This is true, but it doesn't mean that you can't do more than simply let the wrist go through with the stroke and play at a high level, which is what I was pointing out.  Moreover, the analogy to table tennis has its limits, but I digress.

It is the basis of the stroke, one which takes a long time to master, but advanced players might find useful to tweak for minor advantages. We are not those players despite what you might think.

Third, and this one is more of a nuanced pedagogical point so I expect the inevitably pedantic reply will attach here. When teaching something, do you teach as it would be used or slowly build step by step? This would depend on the student, capability of the teacher, and specifics of what is taught. IMO in this case, the power loop motion itself is simple enough there's no reason to go with gimpy half-measures, esp for faster learners (jr's, etc). Just swing slower/more relaxed for less power and more control. Others can disagree and that's ok because there's some level of subjective judgement here. Power looping as you conceive of it is not the only way to loop.  I mean, look at Timo Boll's loop.  Anyone who watches it and thinks that all Timo Boll is doing is relaxing his wrists is just mental.

Stylistically speaking some people might prefer a shorter stroke or wherever but the basic mechanics are the same. The wrist in itself adds maybe 20% or so even when taking full advantage of swinging arm (likely much less using muscles only), so it's conceivable that someone figures out how to use it slightly more or less without messing up the rest of the stroke. However no pro can survive at highest level without an overall good swing esp now the glue days are over.

No, not the addition of spin, but the difficulty of the timing.  It is harder to time a fast ball.  Heavy chop is slow, but many players would encourage you to use wrists when looping it. And the main point you were supposed to get from this is that letting the wrist go through naturally is what he asks beginners to do - using the wrist more is what he expects from players as they get better.

I don't think he's as dumb as you interpret him to be.

For gods sake, stop hating and arguing . It's pointless. You are both right, but you seem to argue about imaginary details just to appear better than the other. So f#$#% childish.

pingpongpaddy wrote: The River Of The Arrow must be in another thread. Keep searching guys. Enlightenment beckons, and with it freedom from petty rivalries and the need to prove oneself in pointless debate.

I actually agree with you. Thanks.

Take a look at Ma Long's BH loop and see how much he brings back his wrist. I've tried doing it myself, even if I intentionally cock my wrist back, I can't do it to the degree that he does.

TTFrenzy wrote: For gods sake, stop hating and arguing . It's pointless. You are both right, but you seem to argue about imaginary details just to appear better than the other. So f#$#% childish. The wrist snap is an essential part of a perfect loop and in their own personal characteristic way agenthex and nextlevel are both correct. end of story

As much as NextLevel has been equivocating and backpedaling in the thread, there's still a significant difference between the mutually exclusive positions that a larger quantity overwhelms a much smaller one, and the viewpoint which doesn't discriminate based on size.

There's a certain art to mocking those who choose to be willfully ignorant of obvious facts. While it's understandable that not everyone appreciates this, that can be said of any form of artistry.

AgentHEX wrote: reflecx wrote: Take a look at Ma Long's BH loop and see how much he brings back his wrist. I've tried doing it myself, even if I intentionally cock my wrist back, I can't do it to the degree that he does. That's bit of an illusion predicated on how loose his wrist is and how fast his forearm is accelerating. As he's bringing the hand backwards for backstroke, his body is already whipping the arm forward which makes for a point where the angle seems larger than natural. He's not somehow super-muscling his wrist back. If you want an example of someone who does use an extreme lock (which takes certain amount of prep), watch Wang Hao on over the table BH.

As a fan of Wang Hao, I couldn't resist presenting examples of the "extreme lock":