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Copying the professionals? |
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Recanter 
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 Posted: 10/02/2009 at 12:05pm |
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It depends on how much time you have to train. 1. You need a coach, or high level hitting partner at the least ( I mean state level at least).
2. You need at least 2 training sessions a week (involving footwork drills and table tennis theory). 3. Give yourself at least 2-3yrs of this training. (Pros need 10-15yrs 5 times a week).
Otherwise your body will not be able to perform what your mind wants it to do when it attempts to emulate the pro.
That doesn't mean you will get everything precise but you will have the "footwork" and "stroke mechanics" to get to roughly the correct position and impart the proper spin on the ball. You will also "understand" the spin to choose the right shot.
If you have proper time and training, then yes, emulate the pros and go down in style at least hehe
But if you don't do footwork drills, don't understand the table tennis theory etc, you might be handing the game over by making too many unforced errors.
My 2 cents
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saif
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 12:21pm |
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I agree with Wiggy that copying the flashy strokes of the pros and using their equipments will get one nowhere. But watching these pros can definitely help. I, myself am an example of this. I discovered some technical flaws in my looping strokes after watching Ma Long & Ryu videos, corrected it. And my loops have more decent arc than before.
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GBtabletennis
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 12:22pm |
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I train 5 hours a week. I play a league that cost 1 hour for your self.
I play 1 time in the month a tournament for 1 day that cost 4 hours of play. I copy professionals their service, footwork and tricks&weapons. Technique is what you have to learn and is little on your own style how play. I have copied my material to professionals. This forum had me bought Tenergy 64 and Michael Maze blade. I just lost my blade  And I get a new one... Same rubbers and Timo Boll Spirit.. =]. So in 4 days I have a new and good blade.I think when you have a good technique is when you could use not our own blade but just from someone else. I had to do it last Sunday because I hadn't a blade with good rubbers on it. And I win of your top-Youth-National players. (Highest Youth National League). My ranking is a class lower, but I can play for higher class, cause I get professional equipment and professional technique&tactic. |
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dragon kid
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 12:30pm |
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You are contradicting yourself there saif.. you don't agree on imitating pro style but you improve by doing something that you don't agree with?
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saif
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 12:56pm |
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Dragon kid, what I try to say don't emulate pros rather use them as benchmarks. I said watching is helpful not copying if you read carefully my earlier post.
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dragon kid
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 1:09pm |
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but you emulate their stroke.. ^^
I also do this often, analyze pros game. What serve they make, how the other guy return it, what they do next next, how to counter, how to lob. you learn a lot from this thing and it makes me a better player for sure.. |
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saif
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 1:11pm |
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Exactly. |
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LOOPMEISTER
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 1:16pm |
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Haha, that's funny. He's half joking, tho. Note the wink and the smile. That's a common argument in the US about the state of basketball. Its valid, but bottom line is that Jordan revolutionized the sport in a positive way. Its beneficial to emulate the best players in any sport, if nothing more than to give someone motivation to go learn the right way to do things, get a coach, etc. Quit being stubborn.  |
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saif
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 1:17pm |
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Watching these vids I have grown a huge respect for Ma lin serves. It's so hard to catch. He has got some very fast arm movement and deceptive motion as well. Very difficult to spot even on videos on my PC. I wonder how pros do it.
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FireHorse
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 1:22pm |
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Yes, I think I am going through the same thing as you said. The style that I'm trying to copy right now varies from one pro player to another. But it's mostly looping style. I haven't found the right one for me yet so it could be why my game is not consistent.
And I also keep Waldner's style in my mind too. I guess I will try to imitate his style after trying all others' styles or when I have no more energy to move (to all Waldner's fans out there, I don't mean that he's not moving at all, but he moves economically hehehe...)
FireHorse
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 3:51pm |
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For me, this has been an awesome thread. I've really enjoyed the respectful back-and-forth, with many people on both "sides" making good points.
However, I think, as a discussion it is slightly flawed. That is to say, I don't think "copying the pros" has been defined well enough (which is nobody's fault). But that lack of precise understanding may be causing some ambiguity.
In presenting "my take" on the issue, I'll try to explicate a bit more precisely what I think it means to copy the pros. (Forgive me, I'm a philosophy minor. Definitions are key to useful discourse.)
Let me start with an analogy: In the world of dog breeding, there is a kind of axiom when encountering an individual dog whose traits you like. In order to get an individual of similar quality, one does better not breed to that dog, but rather breed to one of the parents of that dog. They are, after all, what made that dog great.
Ignoring the complexities of genetics (for the sake of the analogy), when we look at TT we can see the same principle. Don't try to play like Wang Hao, for example. Instead, do the things Wang Hao did to get to where he is. Of course, anyone not living in China and not having access to all the things the Chinese have is a major constraint. But nonetheless my point remains valid.
Wang Hao didn't make things up as he went. He was taught specific fundamentals by other people on the "right" way to do forehands, backhands, etc. He did them over and over, as he also did footwork drills, over and over. He was instructed by other people on the topic of strategy. He watched others in his club. He learned from his mistakes. And on, and on.
My ulitmate point is multifold, but a key element is this: The pros themselves learned by copying other people. They did the strokes their coaches told them to do. They did the footwork in the way their coaches told them to do it. They didn't figure it all out on their own, and they didn't make it up as they went. Big picture wise, this is simply culture, irrespective of the topic, be it table tennis, house building, or baking. We are taught by those who know more than we do. We copy them, until we acheive a mastery. Only then do we occasionally "make stuff up" as we go, and it is only after we have a mastery that the things we make up are likely to be successful.
In one way, we should copy the pros. That is, learn fundamentals. Fundamentals being the most refined and empirically demonstrated efficient ways to achieve one's goals. We copy the pros by doing the same drills they did, and by watching their games and applying the same strategies they do, etc. Table tennis, like any other sport, has a finite amount of approaches to any particular problem. The subset of approaches that are the most efficient is even smaller. That is where fundamentals come from. We all tend to converge on extremely similar ways to solve the same problems.
Anyway, we should copy the pros by doing what they did to get where they are. However, once they've gotten to where they are, they've acquired a mastery of the fundamentals and therefore occasionally blaze new trails, "making stuff up as they go". In that sense, we should not copy the pros. They know what they're doing and why they're doing it. Most of us don't and therefore will likely butcher it, which will also lead to poorer technique in our own games.
Ultimately, those of us who take the sport seriously cannot help but copy the pros--in the sense that we must take the same path that they did to get where they are (even if we probably will never actually get there).
So, should we copy the pros? It depends on what you mean: copying the behaviors that led them to where they are? Or, copying the crazy stuff they do once they've achieved mastery? Two different questions with, I think, two entirely different answers.
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icontek
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 4:37pm |
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Copying the pros more often means mimicking the gameplay that you can see on the table (not mimicking the training habits that happen behind closed doors).
The part of my MJ comparison that seems to have evaded you was that young minds tend to recognize Jordan for ballhandling, dunking and scoring, and emulate those easily observable skills. They do so without recognizing the other sound fundamentals and his teamplay contributions.
Imagine a developing TT player who watches Wang Liquin and just copies the 3rd ball and powerloop aspects of the game... While there may be some great "highlight footage", unless the person is willing to do the fundamental drills, they are going to miss more balls than they put on the table (and I know, because I've been that person).
Am I nuts?
Wouldn't slower gear and more rigorous drilling help you accomplish consistency far better than simply mimicking the mechanics of someone who spends 40+ hours a week training?
It's sounds like you want 6 pack abs from watching TV. |
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FireHorse
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 5:17pm |
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Well, I do practice and get the basic strokes down so now, I just try to mimic the style they play, with some variations that fit my body well. It would be fun to try to mimic the pros sometimes (but not before you have the basic strokes down), you never know you might get something going for you and hopefully, you achieve an enlightment: "Oh, that's how they do it."
Besides, you learn the basic strokes from your coach, or from someone that you think he/she gets the basic strokes right and you try to imitate him/her, right? Same thing with imitating the pros, but as I said, you got to get those basic stuffs taken care of before thinking about imitating the pros.
By the way, you're right about the equipments. I'm trying to find something slower now.
Cheers,
FireHorse
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LOOPMEISTER
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 5:27pm |
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No I understand what you're saying. The stubborn part was @ AWP. True, people need to put in the training to be able to properly emulate WLQ. But if a kid is doing too many third ball attacks, hitting the ball off the table trying to be like WLQ, the problem isn't that they are trying to copy him, the problem is that they are being too impatient and need to learn to use better shot selection, or that they are not training properly, etc. Its got nothing to do with copying a pro, even if that's what they are doing. Make sense? You don't say to that person "stop pretending", you instead say, "you are being impatient, use better shot selection"... And if the problem is their looping technique, you don't say "stop pretending", you say, "if you want your 3rd ball attack to be better, you need to put in more training with the proper technique, blah, blah..." Copying the pro is not the issue. That's the problem with this whole topic. |
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APW46
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 5:36pm |
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Some great answers here. My take on all of this is that many players can benefit by copying/playing/ learning off the players around them who are better than they are, more so than copying world stars. We all have the opportunity to talk to them, ask them questions about their training techniques, tactics. Its on your doorstep guys, use it. Unfortunately we don't have the same opportunity of first hand contact with Wang Le Quin, much of the 'copying' is based upon speculation. I just hate the thought that so many players get to a level then improve no more, when the opportunity is in front of them.
Many seem to have taken offence to my 'pretending' quote, it stems from the obvious fact that so many players think that they can bypass their local 'better players' by looking beyond and above them for inspiration, of course thay can, but after so many years of no improvement, they could possibly look closer to home.
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 5:52pm |
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Wiggy may I enter?
A vampire must be first welcomed in. I come to suck the life out of your thread now! Kust joking.
1. Anton has provided one of the best articulated responses I have seen on a forum. good job.
Can't help but think this thread Wiggy created which I only just realised existed, is a continuation of the 50% of my thread now called "you are a pretender!"
How many times have you noticed a guy sitting down and watching you or another player play do an air swing stroke to emulate the stroke that you or the other player has just performed?
I see it almost daily. When they see a great shot it is instrinsic to mimick it to put it quickly into muscle memory as an imprint. Kids do it all day long mimicking their mum or dad or big brother.
There is no need to label them with anything negative because they are merely doing what it takes to learn. You can't knock them and you shouldn't even bother telling them that copying is bad for whatever reason. It is totally unnecessary to even bother say that once you have copied for long enough you then can create your own style which suits you best and is practical to your own limitations.
Step 1 = emulate
Step 2 = put what you have learnt into practise
There is absolutely no other way!
Take someone who you explain the rules of table tennis and then give them a bat and a ball with an opponent with the same ability. Let them play the game for 50 years.
Or do exactly the same but give them a video of the top 100 players aswell.
what do you think will be the difference?
With out a doubt the video will teach them a hell of a lot.
I learnt how to do every shot in the book by watching the best players in my club play because when I started playing youtube video was trash and dvds of games was not an option. In today's day and age all TT players have been blessed with youtube HD and in super crystal clear slow motion of the best in the world. Why on Earth would you not learn from that?
If you have a handicap of some sort than yes you will need additional guidance - to find players to copy with a similar handicap. A handicap could be your weight or a lack of time to practise. If you have no time to practise and you want to win a game doesnt matter if you emulate or dont emulate your game will improve very very very slowly and its not worth talking about. We are hopefully talking about players who are willing to put in hours. The reason I say this is because I always think of that Korean guy (forgot the name) who uses only 1 rubber on his blade but covers the whole court most the time with only one side of his bat. With half a brain emulating his game strategy you should come to conclusion that you have chosen the wrong choice of player to emulate unless you are as fit and unless you are prepared to spend atleast 30 hours a week doing cross court drills.
I believe we should emulate but make good choices about who we emulate and then bring that emulation down to the reality of our own ability.
Its not black or white Wiggy, but if I had to choose 1 then yes for sure with out a doubt emulate who ever you want - no copy will be the same - every copy is always different.
If you say you havent copied anyone it's either because you think you are god ,a liar or terrible player.
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APW46
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 6:14pm |
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Of course I've copied players;
Klampar
Surbeck
Jonyer
Grubba
Waldner
the list is quite endless.
But I made the most improvement ever when I got to play with a top local player, he was an ex international from many years ago, and I played British league with him, he cornered me, practiced with me, he was real life, there for me to learn off. I know UK ratings mean little to you, but this help enabled me to travel up our rankings from about 450 to 51. That was after years of trying to emulate the list of top players above and happend at the age of 30. It may not be for you, if its not then fair enough, but It just might change your thinking? maybe not.
When I spent 15 yrs trying to copy top internationals, I was pretending, it was never gonna improve my standing locally, I realised this and changed tact.
What did he teach me?
How to play the man, realise that the opponent has a direct input in to what you can do and how you can play, at the age of 30, my stroke play was pretty much engrained, but there is always room for big improvement with short game and service. He taught me to stop being so frightened of the other player hitting balls past me, because that is often what he's trying to do, he's gonna be successful to a degree and the worry about it caused me to make mistakes by either playing too tight or going for a percentage winner myself when I had not worked the opening. He taught me not to commit blindly, trying to squeeze a winner. He taught me how to play more open and relaxed, strangling the grip is a common fault, that tightness can travel right up your arm, and to your brain
 In all he taught me how to find my own game, not a copy.
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 6:35pm |
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Mate, we weren't talking about playing good players.
It doesn't matter how many videos you watch or copy if you don't have higher level players than yourself to teach you your limitations.
That is how I jumped through many levels, I often refered to my mate Tim as the closest thing I have had to a coach. There is no way I would have gotten into A grade if I hadn't been able to have a few hours of play against him once a week for 6 months.
He showed me threw games where my weaknesses were. I played him the other night (hadnt played him in ages) it was exactly the same thing. What I learnt was that I have to keep attacking - not just open and then block!
I have to keep the pressure up on every shot and not block the ball into angles (waiting for a weaker return to attack again) because he moves and gets to them and more than 60% of those attacks I fail to have an answer for.
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APW46
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 6:39pm |
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Things are looking up then
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 6:45pm |
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The advice you give was good for you - some for me too - I like the strangling of the blade - that is basically the only sure way to get my fh strokes on the table.
(not good)
Back to playing Tim - He said I have a very strong open - so for me it is better to open up first - I just mistakenly either drop off the pressure in the 5th ball or go to hard. So for me I need to go 90% on every ball.
These are my strengths and weaknesses currently - they are different to yours and I would like you to know I don't consciously try to emulate anyone but I will tell you a story of the closest emulation I have ever done.
The best I have ever played against the no.5 female in Australia.
At the start of the match I told her I was Timo Boll! she laughed I actually imagined between many points to myself - I said common I am Timo I can do anything.
Man I actually thought and came very very close to beating her - I have never been able to come close to her since or before that time. I have never used this phsychological frame before or after but it worked. She was dumbfounded by how well I played, how spinny and fast my loops were.
Maybe she freaked out that I became Timo Boll? or should I say Timo Boz?
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 6:50pm |
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I should say Peri Campbell Innes (think thats how to spell it) she sounds to impersonal.
Oh and on that topic - I think most us guys should probably emulate the top female players in the world (throw that spanner!)
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APW46
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 7:09pm |
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That is an oft talked about subject, many aspects of the femail game are relevant to male players of lesser standards than internationals. IMO, lady players seem to be one paced (fast counterhit) I recently beat the English lady no2 11-2, she just was appalling at blocking heavy topspin, but I must say our ladies are particularly poor at the moment, they are all so young.
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Heimdallalso
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 8:12pm |
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Hhhmmmmm activate timemachine! http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27092&KW=chinese+woman i should add that I do not try to emulate Subs "style" merely like it There, now that I've lost what little credibility I imagined having, I'll sulk off. |
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ppgear
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 8:24pm |
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I think copying the strokes of the pros is very wise as it's the ideal stroke, refined. Copying their equipment is not. You don't just stick a Tenergy 05 on a fast blade and give it to a kid starting out.
And at the lower levels (under 1700), the pro style is not ideal. Serving only short serves (with the occasional long serve) is not that great. There is a large variety of long serves that are very effective under 1700 that you shouldn't dare attempt above 2200. |
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Arthur Lui
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bozbrisvegas
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 9:12pm |
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long serves are a huge element worth talking about
I think every player that isnt a pro should start each match test all there super spinny long serves out - if they can get them back in a way you dont have an advantage then you need to show respect most of the rest of the time.
But very good point indeed. Long one down the line on the forehand is great one to upset those heavier players. Also older players wide to which ever side they leave open is a tad rude but hey they should be less dogmatic and stand in the middle of the table!
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ppgear
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 9:22pm |
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FYI I recommend the long, fast, sidespin serve to the elbow for anyone under 1900. Most players don't have the speed to sidestep and attack it at that level so you get a lot of weak returns. Plus the sidespin confuses them so they may try to loop it but get jammed as the ball curves toward them.
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Arthur Lui
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figgie
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Posted: 10/02/2009 at 11:36pm |
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Unless anyone here has the fitness much less the technique , to copy the pros. It is an excersice in futility.
Or in other words. If your body is not like WLQ. You can TRY to imitate his strokes. The outcome will be slower than molasses balls. |
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praywin
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Posted: 10/03/2009 at 1:08am |
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That stand in the middle of the table thing rang a bell. Since I was a kid I followed that policy. Forehand court forehand shot, backhand court backhand shot. Then internet (esp youtube) happened and I watched WLQ. After that I shifted to standing on the backhand side and returning most serves with a forehand push. I don't know if I played better earlier or now (or maybe I play equally bad either way) but it just makes me feel good trying to play like WLQ. One thing that I definitely improved watching WLQ is building a point while returning serve. My earlier approach was to try a winner off the serve or counter hit a winner on the opponent's opening shot. Now I try to make a service return which is decent enough so that the opponent can't outright kill it. Then I take a half step back and just focus on keeping the first shot block on the board and try to work my way into the point from there. I found it very interesting how WLQ moves back half a step at a time in a rally compared to lot of players who are quick to back away from the table and get into long loop rallies. Just one of the things I copied from a great player. |
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Blade
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Joined: 02/07/2009 Status: Offline Points: 132 |
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Posted: 10/03/2009 at 1:13am |
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Nice thread, lots of thoughtful responses that seem to reflect my experiences of the game. I spent a lot of time in my early years of playing watching what I thought were interesting/effective styles of local players and then trying to learn how to make shots like loops or block loops. then from talking with the local talents and veterans I got copies of the pros in videos from the 87 WC in India and 88 Olympics in Korea and through those tapes I became familiar with the European game which soon dominated the world for almost a decade. I learned a lot about strokes and tactics from what I watched, but I became too stroke / style focused and after about 10 years of fairly regular play practice and tournaments I improved quite a bit, but basically got stuck at around an 1800-1900 level usatt. Now being older and wiser I think I know why and most of the answers have been touched upon in this thread.
I played the game I imagined to be good like the pros, but not having all their tools, talent or time I over estimated where nice strokes and impressive shots could get me. In effect as was mentioned above I often didn't play my opponent, but tried to play "my game". I played my fantasy of an effective game. My fantasy of playing like the pro's (emulating them) gave me a decent looking game, made me good at training so that better players would hit with me and help me to get many shots of the game. However, the weakest part of my game was the Real Game, willingness and patience to take the types of shots necessary to beat a variety of opponents. I now believe that I am understanding the "real game better" and for me that is paying more attention to concentration levels, readiness after each stroke and trying to play the ball that is hit to me rather than trying to power loop whatever serve comes over the net or kill anything that is remotely smashable -my own word-  . So for me copying the pros is black and white it's good and its bad.Sorry for the long post, perhaps its more the confession of a "Stylist" |
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Speedplay
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Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Posted: 10/03/2009 at 3:07am |
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I think copying the pro's is the best way to climb in level, but the first thing we need to copy is their quality and quantity practice.
Unfortunately, most of us don't have the time to do this, nor do we have coaches at that level available. So, by not copying their practice, but still trying to copy their game, we are only fooling our self to believe that we have more raw talent then the pro's as we expect our self to be able to play their game with a lot less practice then they put in. Sure, looking at their technique might be good, try to hit our fh with the same swing as they do, but obviously we shouldn't copy them and try to go for the same shots as they do. I think that we are all going to improve more/faster by looking at the players who are ONE level above us, try to figure out why they are one level above us and work at that. Once we reach that level, look at the next. A lot about climbing in level is about realising how they game should be played and realising which shots will win us more points then they will cost us. I my self have an awesome fh-loop kill that many players would love to have, but, I'm landing it less then 50% of the time, so it isn't a game winner for me, so instead of hitting this awesome shot, I hold back to increase % and even though it might mean I have to hit more then one fh-loop to win the point, I have found it is winning me more games then unleashing the madness =) |
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