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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2014 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

Eli Baraty is ranked ~50 and Ben Larcombe ~190 among UK senior men. Please show some respect before making statements about their skill and abilities.
===========================

I don't see any disrespect of my earlier post, as shown below.
(Disrespect of other people is not my nature, not in my gene.)

Ben Larcombe:  No info what-so-ever on RC.
Eli Baraty (guest coach):  RC rating is 2182.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2014 at 6:10pm
Its just not easy to compare, for instance, IMO, '617' means little when working out how good a player is out of the 25000 ETTA competitive players, there are quite a few thousand other players who are that standard, but '187' is different, significantly fewer players attain the standard to be ranked that high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonathanVN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2014 at 8:41pm
The problem is that even if Ben is a great player (and by typical standards he's superb), there's truly no way that he plays a 2300-2400 level game. Therefore, it is difficult to see him coaching Sam past anywhere close to 2000. For him to be an "expert" by Ben's definition, Sam really needs a better coach.

With that being said, Ben is a great player comparatively, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2014 at 12:38am
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Ben Larcombe is rated 1965 under the English rating system.  His ranking is 187 out of 617 Senior Men.  No idea how that translates to the USATT rating system.
 


 


In 1994, in the Dallas Metro, a senior in his 50's, would visit from England about every 3-4 months. He was a chopper, said he was ranked #75 in England for senior's. He never lost to anyone in evening club play under 1900 USATT ratings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyler45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2014 at 3:21am
Originally posted by JonathanVN JonathanVN wrote:

The problem is that even if Ben is a great player (and by typical standards he's superb), there's truly no way that he plays a 2300-2400 level game. Therefore, it is difficult to see him coaching Sam past anywhere close to 2000. For him to be an "expert" by Ben's definition, Sam really needs a better coach.



Is that a prerequisite though? As long as he can get the technique down, why does he have to be so much better? Football coaches were not always top level players. (Spoken as an intermediate player who would like to coach ;) )

Edited by Tyler45 - 05/10/2014 at 4:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonathanVN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2014 at 8:10am
Originally posted by Tyler45 Tyler45 wrote:

Originally posted by JonathanVN JonathanVN wrote:

The problem is that even if Ben is a great player (and by typical standards he's superb), there's truly no way that he plays a 2300-2400 level game. Therefore, it is difficult to see him coaching Sam past anywhere close to 2000. For him to be an "expert" by Ben's definition, Sam really needs a better coach.



Is that a prerequisite though? As long as he can get the technique down, why does he have to be so much better? Football coaches were not always top level players. (Spoken as an intermediate player who would like to coach ;) )

Comparing football coaches to table tennis coaches is like comparing apples to oranges. In table tennis, it is very important for a top level player to receive instruction from a highly ranked player, because the coach needs to personally understand the incredible spins that are produced. Plus, table tennis is an individual sport, not a team sport. A lot of times the coaches of large teams are just brilliant tacticians and know how to handle and arrange their players to collectively perform well. For table tennis, however, it solely depends on one person and one person alone. I've never seen a 2400 rated player come from only a 2000 or so rated coach. Maybe if he had some lessons with some of the MDTTC coaches as well, then it could be an obtainable goal. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonathanVN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 6:11am
Maybe it's just me, but it also looks like Sam's form is actually becoming even more robotic. I don't know how he will be able to compete with 2000+ with that kind of slow movement. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 9:18am
Originally posted by JonathanVN JonathanVN wrote:

Originally posted by Tyler45 Tyler45 wrote:

Originally posted by JonathanVN JonathanVN wrote:

The problem is that even if Ben is a great player (and by typical standards he's superb), there's truly no way that he plays a 2300-2400 level game. Therefore, it is difficult to see him coaching Sam past anywhere close to 2000. For him to be an "expert" by Ben's definition, Sam really needs a better coach.



Is that a prerequisite though? As long as he can get the technique down, why does he have to be so much better? Football coaches were not always top level players. (Spoken as an intermediate player who would like to coach ;) )

Comparing football coaches to table tennis coaches is like comparing apples to oranges. In table tennis, it is very important for a top level player to receive instruction from a highly ranked player, because the coach needs to personally understand the incredible spins that are produced. Plus, table tennis is an individual sport, not a team sport. A lot of times the coaches of large teams are just brilliant tacticians and know how to handle and arrange their players to collectively perform well. For table tennis, however, it solely depends on one person and one person alone. I've never seen a 2400 rated player come from only a 2000 or so rated coach. Maybe if he had some lessons with some of the MDTTC coaches as well, then it could be an obtainable goal. 

I have seen something like it in mostly kids, and the reasons are usually twofold:

1) Rating does not correlate perfectly with playing strengths.
2) Tournament/match play with higher level players enables you to learn things from higher level players without taking lessons from them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 9:31am
i am somehow convinced anybody can learn to feed balls at the highest level...so a usatt 1500 coach who is a good tactician and the best ball feeder ever can certainly bring people to the 2400 level if there is a lot of competition going along with the training.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 10:57am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:


i am somehow convinced anybody can learn to feed balls at the highest level...so a usatt 1500 coach who is a good tactician and the best ball feeder ever can certainly bring people to the 2400 level if there is a lot of competition going along with the training.


Can a lower level skill coach teach a person 2400 up skill level technique ? It would be the exception rather than the norm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 11:19am
jean-philippe gatien's coach was not a high level player but a great tactician and coach...he brought his protégé all the way to WC singles gold.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 11:33am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:


i am somehow convinced anybody can learn to feed balls at the highest level...so a usatt 1500 coach who is a good tactician and the best ball feeder ever can certainly bring people to the 2400 level if there is a lot of competition going along with the training.


Can a lower level skill coach teach a person 2400 up skill level technique ? It would be the exception rather than the norm.


Dont think so, a good coach dont have to be a good player at all. Even if you dont master the technique yourself, you can still know how it should be done and teach it to others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:


i am somehow convinced anybody can learn to feed balls at the highest level...so a usatt 1500 coach who is a good tactician and the best ball feeder ever can certainly bring people to the 2400 level if there is a lot of competition going along with the training.


Can a lower level skill coach teach a person 2400 up skill level technique ? It would be the exception rather than the norm.
Answer: Richard Williams - I don't even think he knows how to play Tennis - but was able to coach 2 sisters to number 1. I believe he did send them to various camps and used various coaches to teach them techniques. Still can't believe he did it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 1:11pm
Any updated video of Sam's progress?

Last video I saw was week 14 or 4/6/2014.
Didn't look like Sam could reach 2400-2500 by year's end.
Some predicted that Sam could reach 1800 when the year is over. (That is still very impressive.)

Update:  Practicing with coach only without the experience of playing different real world players (different playing styles and different rubbers used) - reaching 1800 will be quite an accomplishment.


Edited by skip3119 - 05/15/2014 at 1:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 1:21pm
I think it's very possible, if like you guys say he has "natural talent." Fast reflexes, intelligent, good hand eye, athletic. 
I'm sure many of you on this forum could do it too. You think you can't do it, because when you first started(and probably now), you wasted 99% of your time learning self taught garbage, and practicing bad habits. 1 hour a day is perfect. Over an hour, you may be exhausted physically and mentally. I'm sure he will go to a club to test his new weapons.
1 hour with a good coach is more than most people learn in a year. Multiply that by 365....

Edit: I saw Sam on the website at 2-3 months. He does not have talent... No way for him..


Edited by popperlocker - 05/15/2014 at 1:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 2:29pm
When the year is over and Sam goes out to play tournaments, the balls coming from real world players are very likely to be very different coming from his coach (in terms of trajectory, spin on the ball, and how the balls bounce) - lots of surprises are in store for Sam and his coach.

Edited by skip3119 - 05/15/2014 at 2:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

When the year is over and Sam goes out to play tournaments, the balls coming from real world players are very likely to be very different coming from his coach - lots of surprises are in store for Sam and his coach.


He'll prob play in the same tourney: 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Ben Larcombe is rated 1965 under the English rating system.  His ranking is 187 out of 617 Senior Men.  No idea how that translates to the USATT rating system.
 


 


In 1994, in the Dallas Metro, a senior in his 50's, would visit from England about every 3-4 months. He was a chopper, said he was ranked #75 in England for senior's. He never lost to anyone in evening club play under 1900 USATT ratings.

 I would really love to work out who that was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

jean-philippe gatien's coach was not a high level player but a great tactician and coach...he brought his protégé all the way to WC singles gold.


 
"High level" is relative.  Are you saying he was 1500 or 2300?
 
As I said, rating does not correlate well with what makes you a good player.  You can understand the foundation of proper technique but have reasons to be unable to execute it.  And if you can give your students proper technique and they are smart enough to make minor adjustments to tweak it, they can become pretty strong players just by repeatedly playing stronger players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 5:49pm
I only saw a few of the later videos but I think this is going pretty well. The student isn't picking up bad habits like the typical amateur. Or at least, the coach is quashing them early on. So the student is picking up solid fundamentals.

And the student is a tabula rasa, he didn't come with bad habits. The chance he will develop into a good player is excellent.

To me, talent means the student either (A) knows instinctively the right mechanics for a stroke (without explicit coaching), or (B) he successfully corrects after being shown or told just once. There are kids like this.

Talent will shorten the time taken to learn. Being untalented doesn't mean he can't learn. It just takes a lot longer and cost more money.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonathanVN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

I only saw a few of the later videos but I think this is going pretty well. The student isn't picking up bad habits like the typical amateur. Or at least, the coach is quashing them early on. So the student is picking up solid fundamentals.

And the student is a tabula rasa, he didn't come with bad habits. The chance he will develop into a good player is excellent.

To me, talent means the student either (A) knows instinctively the right mechanics for a stroke (without explicit coaching), or (B) he successfully corrects after being shown or told just once. There are kids like this.

Talent will shorten the time taken to learn. Being untalented doesn't mean he can't learn. It just takes a lot longer and cost more money.



I would choose neither A nor B to be honest. He doesn't instinctively know the right mechanics, as he still moves like a robot. And, I do think he successfully corrects himself, but it takes him a lot more than once, which is normal. 

I don't think he is an exceptional talent. I do, however, believe that he is dedicated, motivated, and longing for success. He will go far, but he is not like those prodigious kids. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by JonathanVN JonathanVN wrote:

Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

To me, talent means the student either (A) knows instinctively the right mechanics for a stroke (without explicit coaching), or (B) he successfully corrects after being shown or told just once. There are kids like this.

Talent will shorten the time taken to learn. Being untalented doesn't mean he can't learn. It just takes a lot longer and cost more money.

I would choose neither A nor B to be honest. He doesn't instinctively know the right mechanics, as he still moves like a robot. And, I do think he successfully corrects himself, but it takes him a lot more than once, which is normal. 

I don't think he is an exceptional talent. I do, however, believe that he is dedicated, motivated, and longing for success. He will go far, but he is not like those prodigious kids. 

I guess he is not looking to be an elite player. After all, he is too old for that.

People who can do (A) are very rare, but (B) does exist quite frequently. At least, that's what some coaches in China indicate. One told me that a young ten year old boy he coaches is learning very fast. Only requires to be told once. (If it's the little boy I'm thinking of at that club, he's at least 2200.) That coach was diplomatically indicating that I'm the very opposite. I can be told 200 times and still not be able to make the correction stick. But I think it's completely normal. It's not discouraging to me. After all, I spent years dialing the wrong stroke... Eventually, I'll get there...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonathanVN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Originally posted by JonathanVN JonathanVN wrote:

Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

To me, talent means the student either (A) knows instinctively the right mechanics for a stroke (without explicit coaching), or (B) he successfully corrects after being shown or told just once. There are kids like this.

Talent will shorten the time taken to learn. Being untalented doesn't mean he can't learn. It just takes a lot longer and cost more money.

I would choose neither A nor B to be honest. He doesn't instinctively know the right mechanics, as he still moves like a robot. And, I do think he successfully corrects himself, but it takes him a lot more than once, which is normal. 

I don't think he is an exceptional talent. I do, however, believe that he is dedicated, motivated, and longing for success. He will go far, but he is not like those prodigious kids. 

I guess he is not looking to be an elite player. After all, he is too old for that.

People who can do (A) are very rare, but (B) does exist quite frequently. At least, that's what some coaches in China indicate. One told me that a young ten year old boy he coaches is learning very fast. Only requires to be told once. (If it's the little boy I'm thinking of at that club, he's at least 2200.) That coach was diplomatically indicating that I'm the very opposite. I can be told 200 times and still not be able to make the correction stick. But I think it's completely normal. It's not discouraging to me. After all, I spent years dialing the wrong stroke... Eventually, I'll get there...



Exactly. Hard work and dedication like you and Sam can definitely get you far in the sport, even if you don't have a natural gift or talent for the game. However, to be an "expert" player, I feel like at least some type of innate skill is required. Moreover, to be an expert in only one year with no prior experience, I feel like both A and B would be needed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 12:13am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Even a 1500 who can understand what's going on in a match at the highest level can learn how to feed balls at the highest pace and over that.

returning highest level serves and 3rd ball attacks v. serve returns from that level might be the toughest problems but competition would take care of that.




I disagree - a 1500 player who feeds balls at a high level will not be a 1500 player.  The touch required to feed high quality balls correlates with the skill to loop and the skill to serve.  People who feed high quality balls at 2400 level and can't serve 2000 level spin (as opposed to 2000 level deception) don't exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 12:31am
look at the yt video #36 from coachtt123. Some people have been learning to feed only and might not play. But I agree it's unlikely.  
 
 
The master that comes after the kid is godly. I bet he could bring somebody to 2400 just with feeding and yes, he probably is far above 1500...
 
I think what I want to underline is that ball feeding achieves to make tt a martial art and with drills, practice through ball feeding and regular competition, a player can make it to 2400.
after all, a point is most often featuring less than 6 shots (3 each) and the heuristics are not that huge.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 12:57am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

look at the yt video #36 from coachtt123. Some people have been learning to feed only and might not play. But I agree it's unlikely.  
 
 
The master that comes after the kid is godly. I bet he could bring somebody to 2400 just with feeding and yes, he probably is far above 1500...
 
I think what I want to underline is that ball feeding achieves to make tt a martial art and with drills, practice through ball feeding and regular competition, a player can make it to 2400.
after all, a point is most often featuring less than 6 shots (3 each) and the heuristics are not that huge.
 

Great theory.  Quality balls feeding requires touch and timing skills that don't come to a 1500 player.  Rationalize it all you want, but that's the bottom line.  I can see that above a certain level, multiball can bridge 300-400 pts, but that is about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 3:11pm
Ball feeding is a lot easier to learn. After all, there's no footwork involved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 3:44pm
It is possible to appear massively overrated in standard visually, especially when looking at technique only.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 4:30pm
Well I(1500) am the best feeder in my area if not the only feeder and I have higher rated players(1800-2100) ask me to feed them multiball.  Also all though those higher level players can beat me in match play non of them can feed well at all, especially footwork patterns like falkenberg. Heck some don't even know what good footwork is. I have no doubt that higher level players could make better feeders but they tend to always want to be on the receiving end. To some degree feeding is a specialized sub skill. Feeding has actually made allot of my basic strokes like pushes, counter hits and loops better because executing the feed is practice in and of itself. I know my match play placement always improves after I feed allot of footwork drills.

I actually have a question. How high a level player was Wu Jingping?
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH
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808ponger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 808ponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2014 at 5:58pm
There hasn't been any updates for a month. I wonder how they're doing?
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