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Fat in Table tennis

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2012 at 2:45pm
 I resemble that remark...leave my bacon alone please. It provides me with a lower center of gravity to quickly return speedy balls in unlikely places. It is a fine covering for my six-pack that girls never see. My bacon is usefull for hiding serves and distracting my opponent. You can call me unfit but don't call me Hormel Boy or hormonally challenged. I can't spell for s*** but I love table tennis and my wife (The War Dept.) wants me to play. The muscle I build from playing seems to go away the next day for some reason...maybe it's those energy bars I eat after playing the ones covered in sugar. I make a good hiding spot in doubles when my pardner is trying to dodge a 200mph zinger. It's all good peeps...ya I'm a few pounds over but at 63 I play for fun and who knows I might get to meet some of you guys some day......and we can all go to McDonalds for lunch. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2012 at 5:20pm
Frogger, nice one there Thumbs Up

L2Pivot, yep, TT can be very intensive training if you training correctly.

My students (age 14~18, beginners) all just want to start matches and challenge me. I told them no, you can challenge me next year.
They were laughing when I was asking them to warm up and stretch, weren't laughing anymore when I was giving them footwork drills Tongue.
I only coach them for 1 and half hour - 2 times a week.

I start off with warm up, stretch, footwork drills for about 30 mins.
Next 30 mins would be service and short game.
Then about 30 mins on the table with more drills with single ball, at first I am focusing on footwork, and also correcting the body action. Sometimes I do use multiball.

For the stronger ones, I let them rally with me after practice

For the ones that work hard, tells me they can feel the work out the next day to 2 days lol
TT can be a "burst" sport if you make it like that


Edited by ZApenholder - 05/01/2012 at 5:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote figgie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2012 at 5:26pm
Mmm McD's....
 
Well I said before...
 
I gained about 35 lbs.. and was heavy.. and my game went to hell and a hand basket. lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2012 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by figgie figgie wrote:

Listen folk.. if playing is not hard enough.. I have the perfect answer for all of you.
 
put one of these on.
 
 
play for one hour... Guaranteed to lose weight AND build muscle. I should know as I did that for a while and my game skyrocketed. fitness increased. Muscle definition also.
 
Oh yes it is hard as can be. but no short cuts to improve. ;)
 
 
In the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, it was commonplace in the US Army to wear your "Flack" vest for physical fitness training occasionally to include miles long runs. To an elite athlete, it could be good training and stimulation. Done wrong to the average person (who has suprisingly poor fitness) it is a recipe for disaster of muscle and joint injuries. Such poor structure and design has been the ruin of many a veteran.
 
Now walking with that thing or with a light (10kg) rucksack and a load of water for 2-3 hours a day is one of the secrets of getting cut, (an expression meaning losing body fat and keeping your muscle) along with drinking Moar water and getting Moar sleep. You burn more fat at night than you realize and if you don't sleep, you won't metabolize it worth a crap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2012 at 7:31pm
Every time I can manage to lose 5-10 pounds where I can get into a cycle of more walking and more sleep, I tend to play better TT when I get back to the club.
 
There is no doubt about it, losing fat is always a plus, but it is good to keep a little on your body, but not going around as a male carrying 26-30%+ BF ratio - that is mucho malo.
 
Still, there are many close to the table players with that ammount of BF ration playing some outstanding TT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2012 at 7:48pm
Fat in Table Tennis?

It depends on three things, what else you are doing for exercise, what you are eating, and how (and how much) you play TT.

The thing you have to focus is on, is what you are eating..

If you can't change how much you play TT, how much you exercise, the only thing you can manipulate is your food.

Eat cleaner, and less, and you will lose weight.

Throw in a little bit of resistance training, and you will ensure that most of the weight loss will be FAT loss.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cho! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2012 at 8:57pm
It's funny looking back at this post, because just a month before it was first created, I was 6'1 and weighed in at 206 lbs. Since then, I've started riding my bike everywhere, including to the table tennis clubs and  I've dropped down to 191 lbs. It feels good to have found something to reverse my weight gain and I hope that by keeping it up, I'll eventually get back to not only a weight, but a level of fitness that I am content with. I thought about trying weighted vests, but I didn't know how much they would actually help, and I thought they would look stupid but it may be something that I'll invest in later.

Edited by Cho! - 05/01/2012 at 9:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swampthing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2012 at 9:13pm
If you have had any kind of knee trouble, I would avoid the weighted vest.  A calorie deficit and mild exercise is the way to go.   http://www.myfitnesspal.com/ helps me out, almost 30 lbs lost over the past year. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 1:45am
The two are not related very much. Contrary to popular belief, maintaining proper weight depends almost entirely on your diet. 
It burns A LOT of calories for sure. I work out at the gym 4 x 45 mins a week at work, and play at the club 10-12 hours a week. I sweat like a pig at the club, and never break a sweat while lifting weights. The thing is, it is very easy to get those calories back with food, and then some. 

See, if you keep your normal (and healthy) food intake and start playing TT, yes,  you will lose some weight. But for me and most people you increase your food intake too. I am hungry as a tiger when I get home after 4 hours at the club. I can go through the fridge like a hurricane and leave nothing inside. 

I fought so hard to drop 18 pounds, and I immediately gained 10 of them back. Exercise being all the same meanwhile. 

PROPER DIET is the only way to healthy weight. That is the bitter truth, and if anyone else tells you otherwise he doesn't know. If you think you can stuff yourself with sh1t and rely on TT to keep you int the game, you are in for a rough awakening. And I don't mean starvation by dieting. You can be always full but you have to select what you throw down your throat. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 2:39am
Hard physical work is the only solution to obesity.
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Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

The two are not related very much. Contrary to popular belief, maintaining proper weight depends almost entirely on your diet. 
It burns A LOT of calories for sure. I work out at the gym 4 x 45 mins a week at work, and play at the club 10-12 hours a week. I sweat like a pig at the club, and never break a sweat while lifting weights. The thing is, it is very easy to get those calories back with food, and then some. 

See, if you keep your normal (and healthy) food intake and start playing TT, yes,  you will lose some weight. But for me and most people you increase your food intake too. I am hungry as a tiger when I get home after 4 hours at the club. I can go through the fridge like a hurricane and leave nothing inside. 

I fought so hard to drop 18 pounds, and I immediately gained 10 of them back. Exercise being all the same meanwhile. 

PROPER DIET is the only way to healthy weight. That is the bitter truth, and if anyone else tells you otherwise he doesn't know. If you think you can stuff yourself with sh1t and rely on TT to keep you int the game, you are in for a rough awakening. And I don't mean starvation by dieting. You can be always full but you have to select what you throw down your throat. 


Agree,

Having coming from a family in medicine, a lot of people are intaking too much acid type of foods and this is the main problem for all illnesses

Normally the yummy stuff are high in acid. One would require to take an equal amount of alkaline food to balance it, and I think that is where problems start. The wise one will say your body needs to be more alkaline than acid, so i'm not saying stop acid food intake, but rather make sure your balance is on the correct side.

I won't say acid/alkaline will fix obesity, but sure will be a good start and help more than half way in fixing it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote atv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 3:10am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

The two are not related very much. Contrary to popular belief, maintaining proper weight depends almost entirely on your diet. 
It burns A LOT of calories for sure. I work out at the gym 4 x 45 mins a week at work, and play at the club 10-12 hours a week. I sweat like a pig at the club, and never break a sweat while lifting weights. The thing is, it is very easy to get those calories back with food, and then some. 

See, if you keep your normal (and healthy) food intake and start playing TT, yes,  you will lose some weight. But for me and most people you increase your food intake too. I am hungry as a tiger when I get home after 4 hours at the club. I can go through the fridge like a hurricane and leave nothing inside. 

I fought so hard to drop 18 pounds, and I immediately gained 10 of them back. Exercise being all the same meanwhile. 

PROPER DIET is the only way to healthy weight. That is the bitter truth, and if anyone else tells you otherwise he doesn't know. If you think you can stuff yourself with sh1t and rely on TT to keep you int the game, you are in for a rough awakening. And I don't mean starvation by dieting. You can be always full but you have to select what you throw down your throat. 



Agree,

Having coming from a family in medicine, a lot of people are intaking too much acid type of foods and this is the main problem for all illnesses

Normally the yummy stuff are high in acid. One would require to take an equal amount of alkaline food to balance it, and I think that is where problems start. The wise one will say your body needs to be more alkaline than acid, so i'm not saying stop acid food intake, but rather make sure your balance is on the correct side.

I won't say acid/alkaline will fix obesity, but sure will be a good start and help more than half way in fixing it.



Well in tradional chinese medicine system the acid/alkaline doesn't literally mean acid/alkaline, human body PH will stay at 7.4 to 7.5 no matter what you eat. It's more of healthy/unhealthy metaphor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 4:03am
I was indeed refering to TCM, and no it is not just a metaphor, a lot of people understand what is acid based food, what is alkaline based food. Ofcourse in TCM you have Ying and Yang which is very important to determine what food is healthy for you or not. IE fruit may be too "cold" for certain people at night, and will cause more harm than good.

If it wasn't due to my illness, I would been studying TCM this year already (career change). Never the less, I have been around TCM all my life - due to my parents.

Trust me, eating alkaline is way better than acid. In western medical terms, I think they use other words or examples. IE acid food normally has high fat levels.

My parents will teach patient when they drink coffee (alkaline) that it is okay, but the moment milk is added, it changes the alkaline base of coffee into acid, then it is not good, plus then you have people adding spoons and spoons of sugar which makes it worse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 4:08am
ATV, I read your post again, I think I know what you mean.
Maybe a lot of people here don't understand or can tell the different between Acid and Alkaline food, I guess I also struggling to explain it with my broken English Tongue.

Any ways, I was just pointing that food intake is very important, as a lot of doctors (or my parents should I say) stated that if you eat wrong (too much acid), you will have a lot of problems in the future.

I am also choosing examples very carefully, as I said a lot of acid food is yummy stuff and if I make it sound like you guys all going to get in trouble because you are eating this or that, then I'm gonna be a public enemy :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote atv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 6:16am
Yes TCM is ver confusing, let's not mess this thread up...Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 11:09am
From a personal experience I went from my top weight of 6'1 275 to 215 in just about 3 months.
It was a combination of resistance training (I gained a lot of muscle in the process) low to occasional mild intensity cardio, and a very stringent diet.

If I want to lose a few pounds quickly I can tighten up my diet and see results immediately, but in general I eat healthy all the time, with a few 'cheats' here and there. I am a little too bulky for the common TT player right now (6'1 230lbs), so I am working on a lot of cardio, plyometrics, and explosive movements like Olympic lifts.

I do some personal training for individuals so that is what experience I speak from, I've helped quite a bit of people to really change how they look. Like a few that have mentioned, managing caloric intake is the big part. HOW you train, will determine HOW you look. (in the sense of if you train like a sprinter, you will look like one, if you train like a marathoner you will look like one, etc)


Originally posted by Cho! Cho! wrote:

It's funny looking back at this post, because just a month before it was first created, I was 6'1 and weighed in at 206 lbs. Since then, I've started riding my bike everywhere, including to the table tennis clubs and  I've dropped down to 191 lbs. It feels good to have found something to reverse my weight gain and I hope that by keeping it up, I'll eventually get back to not only a weight, but a level of fitness that I am content with. I thought about trying weighted vests, but I didn't know how much they would actually help, and I thought they would look stupid but it may be something that I'll invest in later.


Weighted Vests are okay for walks or resistance training. (Lunges/squats etc)

I am not a big fan of people running with weighted vests. (keep thinking of knees, and rolled ankles)

If you begin to plateau with your weightloss, take a look at your diet and also increase the intensity of your bike rides. (Ride faster/longer)





Edited by BigK - 05/02/2012 at 11:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cho! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 11:38am
Originally posted by BigK BigK wrote:

From a personal experience I went from my top weight of 6'1 275 to 215 in just about 3 months.
It was a combination of resistance training (I gained a lot of muscle in the process) low to occasional mild intensity cardio, and a very stringent diet.

If I want to lose a few pounds quickly I can tighten up my diet and see results immediately, but in general I eat healthy all the time, with a few 'cheats' here and there. I am a little too bulky for the common TT player right now (6'1 230lbs), so I am working on a lot of cardio, plyometrics, and explosive movements like Olympic lifts.

I do some personal training for individuals so that is what experience I speak from, I've helped quite a bit of people to really change how they look. Like a few that have mentioned, managing caloric intake is the big part. HOW you train, will determine HOW you look. (in the sense of if you train like a sprinter, you will look like one, if you train like a marathoner you will look like one, etc)


Originally posted by Cho! Cho! wrote:

It's funny looking back at this post, because just a month before it was first created, I was 6'1 and weighed in at 206 lbs. Since then, I've started riding my bike everywhere, including to the table tennis clubs and  I've dropped down to 191 lbs. It feels good to have found something to reverse my weight gain and I hope that by keeping it up, I'll eventually get back to not only a weight, but a level of fitness that I am content with. I thought about trying weighted vests, but I didn't know how much they would actually help, and I thought they would look stupid but it may be something that I'll invest in later.


Weighted Vests are okay for walks or resistance training. (Lunges/squats etc)

I am not a big fan of people running with weighted vests. (keep thinking of knees, and rolled ankles)

If you begin to plateau with your weightloss, take a look at your diet and also increase the intensity of your bike rides. (Ride faster/longer)



I'll keep that in mind.
   Honestly, I don't ride my bike FOR the fitness, I just don't have a ride out to the club. The ride is a commute to me and just happens to burn calories, which I'm happy about. I could ride longer, however I already have to ride 12 miles to get out there, then I play TT for 4 hours and have to ride 12 miles back home, if I went an alternate, longer route, I'd probably die. I do however try to push my time out there out of self competition. I've been able to cut my time out there from 1hr 20min down to 50min, except on days I didn't get enough sleep.
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 12:11pm
Avoid eating fatty foods before playing!!!   I saw a TV program where they drew blood from a person before and after eating a fatty meal.  The put the blood samples in a centrifuge and you could actually see the fat or what ever the fat creates in the blood.  I know I can't play as well after eating fatty foods.

Trans fats and saturated fats are very bad.   Some fats are actually good for you like fish oil and olive oil if taken in moderation.

One of the best sources of protein I have found is non fat cottage cheese.

For someone my size, 120-125kg ,  I should have no more than 53gm of fat a day.   A slice of cheese cake may have 80gm.    Most of you are smaller so scale back the grams of fat per day.   I did try to live on 20 gm of fat a day.   My lips started to dry out where I needed lip balm all the time and my skin would crack, not good so don't get carried away.

As far as getting rid of fat.  That is simple. Burn more calories than what you eat.
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 12:22pm
 Table tennis is the only sport I can think of that is good excercise that I don't think of as "excercise" because I'm having such a good time playing. During tournaments I drink tons of water and love to eat bananas. Blood sugar levels are very important while playing...so fuel up and play hard. Wink
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Since I started playing for real with my boys 5 months ago, I've lost about 5 - 7 lbs, dropped about 5 pts off systolic and diastolic BP and knocked 1:15 seconds off my time in the mile. 

In my newbie opinion, it all depends on how you play.  You run all over the place, sprint from sidee to side, go after it, you can get in great shape (or at least I'm starting to get there), you stand there and just hold your side of table, it's about as much physical activity as the average trucker steering his 18 wheeler through traffic.  Some great players are in terrible physical shape.  Bavly up in MA probably can't climb three flights of stars without a break, but he could sure destroy me in a TT match!  
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I'm overweight and try to play table tennis at work. It's been about a month and I haven't lost anything :-(

Anyone have any tips for people trying to lose weight through TT?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RankAmateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by EHP EHP wrote:

I play regularly about 10 hours a week, doing multiball exercises as well. I though I'm fit. 2 weeks ago I played soccer after 15 years and I almost died after 3 minutes..., lol.


It's different exercise, that was your problem.  You can be fit in one way, but not in another.  Your muscles just aren't toned for soccer.  The soccer players might start struggling after playing a few 5 game sets of serious table tennis.  Years ago I was in outstanding cardio shape, I was running some serious stairs at flat out speeds 5 days a week, weight lifting with high, good-for-cardio reps, had a low resting heart rate, I was in great shape, almost as good as when I was a collegiate boxer.  I played basketball with some friends, thinking I could run with anyone, but my legs were getting pump up and refusing to work after about 15 minutes.  I struggled to make them move and wore myself out quickly.  I was in great stair running shape, but my muscles weren't good for basketball. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 2:59pm
lol, Good point there RankAmateur.

On a similar note, I hate it when I play some old Chinese ex pro. Never moves, wearing wrong clothes (long pants, long shirt, wrong shoes etc), plays so casual and beats the sh*t out of me lol

When I was in training clinic 8 years ago, my coach was about 70, he can hardly even walk properly, but damn he is good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 2:16am
Originally posted by BarbecueTT BarbecueTT wrote:

I'm overweight and try to play table tennis at work. It's been about a month and I haven't lost anything :-(

Anyone have any tips for people trying to lose weight through TT?

Losing weight is all about energy intake vs energy expenditure.  No matter how much energy you expend, if you're just making up for it by eating more, say BBQ Wink, then you won't lose any weight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 9:46am
I agree with a lot of the previous posts here about maintaining a healthy lifestyle outside ot TT.  TT is a great cardio workout but if you eat a lot of junk food and drink a lot of sodas you will still be fat.  I know 1 player at our club that is a good 1900 player that plays probably 5x a week, but he is still 50 - 60 lbs overweight.  He drinks a ton of Mountain Dew in between his matches and lord only knows what he eats.  I eat a lot of low fat food and my family eats a lot of organic food so we are all pretty fit, but I need to lose 5-10 lbs.  There is a really good documentary I would recommend called "Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead".  This guy was taking a lot of medicine and was way overweight.  He decided to just go on a juice diet for 60 days to get healthy again.  He also completely changed his lifestyle, and thats key if you want to get healthy.  I haven't finished the movie, but he made an amazing transformation.  Highly recommend watching his movie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 11:28am
Originally posted by BarbecueTT BarbecueTT wrote:

I'm overweight and try to play table tennis at work. It's been about a month and I haven't lost anything :-(

Anyone have any tips for people trying to lose weight through TT?


I do. Play at least two times a week - 4 hours at the table altogether is really the desired minimum. However, I suspect that office TT is not very demanding and you do not expend that much energy per hour as you should... I might be wrong there of course.

And - even more important - stop eating after 8-9 pm and eliminate hamburgers and white-bread-and-mayo-sandwiches Smile from your food intake. That should help a lot!

Spoken out of my own experience. I have started playing after a 12-yr hiatus when I messed up my knees playing badminton (had to quit everything for 18 months). My weight reached 225 lbs (height 6'1") so I was getting really flabby. So I did what I just said and in 4-5 months I lost 25 pounds.

Just now - after three years of trying to lower it a bit more (I plateaued at 198-202) - I made a bet with my sparring partner that in three months we both will lose 10 pounds. So I once again (LOL) stopped eating after 9 pm (I go to bed around 1 am so it's about 4 hours before bed time), and I once again stopped eating bread and butter sandwiches and similar carbohydrated junk. It's one month into the bet and I lost 5 pounds... but it's getting trickier with every next one, I tell ya!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 11:52am
Michael Phelps caloric intake is downright scary, but it turns out a lot of it is used just to maintain his body temperature while in the water. Maybe if you keep yourself just a bit cold all the time --- fewer layers of clothing, slightly cold shower, etc, that will force your body to burn more calories to stay warm.

So, the next time you're at the club, turn up the AC and strip down to your undies to play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 6:27pm
People can also consider gastric bypass surgery and such.  Most people just assume that it works by limiting your food intake, but most recent medical research suggest otherwise.  That it can limit your food intake is certainly a big part, but people also undergo tremendous hormonal changes after the surgery.  The mechanism of how it happens is very poorly understood, but it's a fact that over 80%(I've read even higher) of the people who undergo gastric bypass surgeries have CURED their type 2 diabetes.  Not an improvement, not even a regression, but a complete, almost IMMEDIATE(like within weeks of the surgery) CURE.

And no, this isn't some sort of get-lean-quick scheme I read over the internet, this was taught at the U.S. medical school I'm currently attending.  I've also read some legitimate research articles that have investigated this issue.  Now obviously, dieting and exercise would still be the best route to take, and you should still do that even if you get surgery, but there's a gigantic genetic component to obesity.  We all have a set weight point and it appears to increase with age(to a point), which is why there is the common and very true saying that losing weight is easy, keeping the weight loss is hard.  Our bodies naturally try to reset our weights to the set point, and it can be difficult to fight against your own body every waking moment.

Just to clarify, I have absolutely no affiliation whatsoever with any GI surgeon or pharmaceutical company, I'm just trying to pass on the latest and shocking medical news I've learned in school.


Edited by dingyibvs - 05/03/2012 at 6:30pm
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