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1 ply Hinoki Blades |
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Pongz
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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nice? ..Sorry didn't mean to be rude.. But it is a genuine question, i can't assume from the answer that s/he uses 7ply before. That's why i am verifying..
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Butterfly Sardius
FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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If your 7-p-ly is very stiff (almost no flex) then I am pretty sure it blocks good as well. The main advantage of 1-ply blades in blocking is their absence of flex. Combine that with softness of Hinoki and you get very good short game as well. If the blade is thick enough you get the attacking power - so almost everything you need (except good flex which helps with looping) is in one nice package. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14847 |
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Why are stiffer blades harder to loop with? Is it purely about dwell time?
I thought flexy blades had some merits when it came to blocking given the vibrations and feedback the blocker gets. Edited by NextLevel - 10/02/2012 at 10:45am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Pongz
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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Thanks JimT that clarify few things for me..
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Butterfly Sardius
FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
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caballero
Super Member Joined: 06/26/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 121 |
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I second this question. Would like to read what JimT has to say about this.
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Hurray for independent blade-makers:
Leidy's Rapscallion Charlie's 1Ply & 9-10-9 American Hinoki's WRC Quantum 3-ply Feedback Caballero |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Stiff blade has NO catapult therefore when you loop there is no help from the blade in that aspect. Also if your blade is relatively thin (which is usually the case with regular flexy blades, you cannot really expect 8 or 9 mm blade to be flexible, not to mention 1-ply) then its flex helps somewhat with the dwell time as the bend of the blade keeps the ball a little longer on the rubber - the ball even while moving along or being just off the surface of the rubber is being "enveloped" by the slightly concave surface of the blade (as a result of the impact it is still being non-flat for a few micro-seconds). That's why if you want to loop with 1P blade you need to choose your rubbers properly - I always advised MAX thickness on FH (or at least 2.0 mm) and not super hard sponge; or if it's hard then it better be somewhat sticky as well. If you are playing close to the table then the rubber can be soft, but if you are using it from all points then too soft a rubber might bottom out and fail you when executing an aggressive attack from, say, 10 feet away. About blocks: flexy blades are not relatively great at blocking. Notice that I am not saying they are bad - that depends on your individual ability. If you learned how to handle blocks and how to follow the ball with your flexy blade when blocking - more power to you. But the fact is that non-flex blades (all thick 1Ps are very stiff of course) are way more linear and thus there is no need to adjust the stroke from simply putting the blade in front of the ball (at proper angle, of course!). Flex of the blade (and/or vibration) adds some non-linear component to the bounce of the ball - and that complicates things. Thick (non-vibration) non-flexy blades with less sensitive rubbers (like SP or hard topsheet rubbers) therefore are really the best choice for blocks. It doesn't have to be a 1P blade - my Galaxy W-1 blade (6.3 mm) has some flex but not a lot of it, zero vibration, and therefore is better at blocking than all other "thin" blades I have tried (and that's like 30 of them). Some people will say "look I am playing with my flexy XYZ blade and it's great at blocking so your theory is bunk". My answer is "but have you really tried to play same rubbers with adjusted technique on thick non-vibration blades?". If you make claims you need to have done some comparisons. Otherwise it's like saying "pizza is the best food on Earth because it's the best stuff I have ever eaten in my native little hamlet of Nowhere, Montana" (no offense to great state of Montana, I just used them as a place which is not generally famous for having huge diversity in local cuisine). |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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Pongz
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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Excellent explanation, JimT.
I have more difficulty in blocking using 5 ply blades such as P500 but I blocks better using Korbel like blades but even better using 7 ply. JimT, I ordered American Hinoki WRC 9mm. Do you think rubbers like Galaxy Sun, H3 neo match fine with WRC? Thanks |
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Butterfly Sardius
FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
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caballero
Super Member Joined: 06/26/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 121 |
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JimT, this is such a good answer that I am saving it in my "database of blade knowledge." And yes, I am offended by your reference to Montana not having the best pizza. After all, you have not been at my hamlet yet and tried the local's Greek pizzeria here. It is undoubtedly the best!
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Hurray for independent blade-makers:
Leidy's Rapscallion Charlie's 1Ply & 9-10-9 American Hinoki's WRC Quantum 3-ply Feedback Caballero |
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tomas.gt
Silver Member Joined: 12/07/2008 Location: Czech Republic Status: Offline Points: 548 |
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Wouldn't say so. Stiff blades do have catapult, coming from deformation of the layers, when ball sinks into the plies of the blade. Then generally thick core of the blade compresses and when it naturally expands, accelerate the ball, thus the catapult effect. Flexible blades combines this effect with 'bending' effect together. 1ply hinoki blades have enormous catapult effect as the ball sinks into the wooden layer. Therefore it is very important, how much the hinoki wood is hard/soft. Soft hinoki wood helps a lot when you loop. It is still stiff and precise, but keeps the ball on the blade and in the rubber for longer time, giving higher arc and easier loops. Some butterfly senkohs are made from young and soft hinoki wood and these blades may provide the easiest loops. On the other hand, they keep the ball too long, so when you need to play direct/flat hits, it becomes annoying, because it still produces some unwanted arc.
For 1ply hinoki blades, it is valid that the material and its hardness determines, how the blade is good for looping
Well, my results/endings are the same, but the reason for them is not that simple as you mentioned ;) The catapult of the hinoki blade and the hardness of the rubber must be in harmony. Too soft rubber make the blade wild (suddenly, when the ball reaches the blade itself), so does the very hard rubber. Medium rubbers 'borrow' the catapult effect from the blade, the dynamics is transferred from hinoki to the rubber, making the bat more predictable and harmonizing. The result is quite surprising, because thicker rubbers are more controlable on 1ply hinoki blades than thin rubbers, which is the opposite of what is being thought. Thick rubbers just reduces the wildness and extreme catapult of the blade, making it more controlable.
I would not say that 1ply hinoki blades are the greatest for blocking. They have too much catapult effect in them and the faster the loop, the harder to put the ball on the table.
1ply hinoki blades are so specific, that comparing them to other blades is useless. They have both advantages and disadvantages. And also, every blade is different, depending on the material used.
Oh and one more thing: 1ply thick blades are worse for looping because of their thickness, esp.above the table
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Kokutaku Bishu no.1 ST - H3N red , BTfly Spinart 2.1 black
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Pongz
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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so if 1 ply does not have advantage in looping and blocking, what are the strong points of 1 ply? speed or flat kill?
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Butterfly Sardius
FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Well, tomas.gt has his own opinion about 1Ps not being great in blocking but it contradicts vast majority of 1P players on the market. So I wouldn't be worried about that being your case. Also - when we say catapult for the blade then it doesn't refer to that tiny (in comparison) "catapult" effect produced by the wood repulsing the ball by the virtue of elasticity of the wood (that is, the wood "caves under" the force of the impact and then restores to being flat, thus pushing the ball back). Catapult in TT (for blades) refers almost exclusively to the blade flexing and un-flexing during the stroke. The one that tomas.gt describes has nothing to do with flex/stiffness, it is dependent rather on the qualities of the outer wood layer, type of wood used. Once again, strong points of 1P blades are: a) blocking b) short game especially on FH c) having many gears, being versatile in almost all strokes d) flat game like block-push, fishing, flat attacks, smashes weak points a) looping (to a degree; also depends on the rubbers used) b) BH game over the table (due to thickness of the blade it is less comfortable to flip on BH) c) some extra bounce on BH, that's why I do not recommend using very bouncy tensors on BH with 1P or fast SPs like max thickness 802-40 for instance. And of course it is all only from my experience, and as they say "mileage may vary". |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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W0LovePP
Super Member Joined: 04/04/2012 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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I have a Darker speed90. It is powerful, close to table smash, and away from the table loopig.However, it is very hard to do a close to table push, both fh and bh. I tried 1.0 mm rubber on back hand side. It still does the same.
It should be an awesome weapon if you are an attacker from both sides. |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Have you played it more than 1-2 sessions? It really does require 2 weeks of getting used too, believe me. But after that you don't want to go back to thin blades |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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W0LovePP
Super Member Joined: 04/04/2012 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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Yes, I played with it for quite a while.
The main problem is that pushing rises high. I strugled with finding the right rubber for the backhand side. If anyone has found the perfect backhand rubber to sovle the backhand pushes, Darker Speed90 is a perfect blade.
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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It might be the problem in your grip. The problem of thick blades is that when you hold it at the same angle (same grip) as thin blades then on BH its angle deviates a bit from regular (with respect to the plane of the table); basically it is a bot more horizontal than it should be so it pushes the ball more in the up direction than it should. So it really demands some adjustment in the grip. It played quite OK for me after this adjustment with rather standard BH rubbers (like Palio Blitz 2.0 and GD Karate Hard and some others) |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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maktime
Super Member Joined: 09/05/2011 Location: Sydney, Aus Status: Offline Points: 107 |
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As JimT said you can use a slower rubber for your Backhand which should help with your overall backhand push and general play. I'd also recommend possibly a slower tacky rubber on the backhand which will help with your pushing. And spinnier backhand loops. I'm currently also using a Darker Speed 90 shake hand and am loving it. I was previously using a American Hinoki WRC 10mm (which has now become my backup blade), but find the Darker Speed 90 to have better feel / feedback and is slightly slower then the WRC 10mm. Which is better for me as I am not at the skill level to be able to take advantage of the extra speed... Try a slower rubber and let us know what you think. |
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Member of the Violin and Single Ply Hinoki Club
Blade #1: Nittaku Violin FH Tibhar Evolution MX-P BH Nittaku G1 Blade #2: Favourite Pro Cougar FH Haifu Whale 2 BH Andro Hexer Powersponge |
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Pongz
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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Thanks JimT for your explanation.. looking forward to try 1st ever 1 ply WRC 9mm...
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Butterfly Sardius
FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
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Pongz
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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I received my American Hinoki WRC 9.0mm 81gr... It is beautiful and play superbly... I played twice
I would say WRC is at least as fast as Sardius or Joola Kool.. it is good to know that we can have the same kind of speed without the need of carbon... Compare to my usual 7ply Yasaka Extra Special, WRC is noticably faster, similar crispiness, solid in smashing... so in terms of attacking, I found myself comfortable... However, for my style, I like YES better than WRC in blocking... Not only YES is more consistent (maybe because it is slower and I am still not used to WRC).. but I found also WRC produces different kind of blocked balls... for passive blocks, I feel the ball slow down a lot... I am sure it will work for others but it kind of messed up my rthym for my style.. I am trying to play like the women style, close table left right... Could one of the 'Guru' share some light? What should I do if want to play like the women style but using WRC? Is my only option to do active block? Thanks
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Butterfly Sardius
FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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For all the 1-ply fans out there, I have a 1ply cpen (darker jspeed 90) available for sale. Check the link in my signature.
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maktime
Super Member Joined: 09/05/2011 Location: Sydney, Aus Status: Offline Points: 107 |
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Glad that you got a WRC blade from Kevin at American Hinoki. He definitely makes great blades! How do you generally block? do you block early? off the bounce / on the early rise? Depending on what kind of shot is coming at you can still do a passive block. I do both passive and active blocks to mess up the opponents timing. If you block off the bounce / early the ball will go back quite quick as you're using your opponents force / power... And I also play quit close to the table as well with some mid distance power looping and chopping in the mix every now and then. Hope that helps. |
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Member of the Violin and Single Ply Hinoki Club
Blade #1: Nittaku Violin FH Tibhar Evolution MX-P BH Nittaku G1 Blade #2: Favourite Pro Cougar FH Haifu Whale 2 BH Andro Hexer Powersponge |
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Pongz
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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Thanks maktime.. I think I blocked most of the ball on the rise... if I have time, normally I counter drive.. however if I am out of position or against strong loop or strong smash, I tend to do passive block... because it is slowing down, there is ample time for the opponent to do strong attack again... With my 7 ply, the blocked ball from passive still rebound very quickly... just in and out... giving less time for my opponent to attack again... I'll pay more attention whether I can do more block earlier...
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Butterfly Sardius
FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
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tsanyc
Platinum Member Joined: 05/23/2006 Location: Mt. Hinoki Status: Offline Points: 2367 |
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1 ply H blades got very good feeling.
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jpenmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 12/24/2008 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 2176 |
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OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip
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tiehwen
Premier Member Joined: 11/22/2006 Location: Bukan Bumiputra Status: Offline Points: 6434 |
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I got an old Taipei buddy who's now there visiting his old mommy. He kept asking me b4 he left whether I need anything, esp. pingpong stuffs, he said this Tony's place & the other 2 which don't do shipping are known to him, yet he's not a t/t equip. knowledgeable..So, I said that's ok o buddy, go enjoy ur trip not to worry about my t/t stuffs.... Edited by tiehwen - 10/27/2012 at 12:31pm |
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jpenmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 12/24/2008 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 2176 |
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I got one on the way LOL
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OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip
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tiehwen
Premier Member Joined: 11/22/2006 Location: Bukan Bumiputra Status: Offline Points: 6434 |
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Jpen > DEF Shkhnd > Cpen then back to Jpen again? Jack of all trades, eh? What? You still have time to venture out to shop & play? |
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jpenmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 12/24/2008 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 2176 |
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LOL i don't think there is anything i haven't tried. I always have a few jpens though.
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OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip
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