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Copying the professionals? |
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dragon kid
Premier Member Joined: 07/28/2007 Status: Offline Points: 2947 |
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like i said, some are better than some,
if you can do it (copy the pros) than do it. if you can't then don't.. |
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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I know it may sound whiney, but it seems most people are ignoring my post. I completely understand this, because I tend to be a verbose windbag. However, many of you guys keep equivocating concerning the phrase "copying the pros". You seem to be talking past each other because the phrase means two different things to many of you. Some of you seem to be saying we should copy the pros by practicing fundamentals and striving toward perfection as best we can. Others seem to be saying that copying the pros by trying to pull off crazy, improvised, low percentage shots brings our games down. What I was trying to say is that both perspectives are correct. As long as no one defines what they mean by the phrase "copying the pros" you're gonna disagree even when you agree.
It seems it would be better for people to say what it means to them to "copy the pros". Perhaps APW could take the lead in more precisely defining the term, since he started the (highly informative and useful) post.
Just a suggestion.
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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I don't see anything low percentage about the pros play. They use good spin, power and placement. Except players like ma lin and ryu that throw bombs.
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Ok Anton.
The problem with copying anything, it that what might appear visually to you has far more to it than is often realised,
For instance, when watching a player with a good consistent powerful, third ball loopdrive winner, it may be and is usually the case, that his seemingly fantastic f/hand is preceded by serves of considerable quality, and he is playing a player who is struggling to do anything other than passively return them.
So unless you can see the whole picture, copying the attributes of his f/hand stroke are meaningless. Professional standard serves, returns and general touch play and opponent awareness are IMO massively overlooked by aspiring players looking to improve. Its totally understandable as to Why, they represent the less spectacular (but most important) side of table tennis, and of course letting rip with spectacular strokes is all the more easy to see and understand, its easy isn't it? As I pointed out earlier, how many of us have played a player who is out of our depth (but not a world beater by any means) who just out serves, out touches and out plays us, without so much as a grain of aggression, they don't need it.
Far too many players either think they can bypass the basics and play advanced TT, not really understanding why there is a defined learning process that most International associations have in place to produce their world stars, these players spend hours upon hours fine tuning the boring stuff, because the people tasked with the job of bringing them through, know that anything less than perfection will not do. We all like to take short cuts, its human nature, but I believe that players who make the international cut, have a desire that borders on obsession, the rest of us are just dedicated.
So, I'm not trying to advocate playing boring TT, I'm not saying don't copy the top stars, I am saying, It is more pertinent for those who wish to improve upon the standard they are now, especially if they have become entrenched in it, to just stop and think, what is it that makes the players that I interact with/ compete against regularly who are better than me, better than me.? I think you all will find, that in most cases, they serve better, have more solid short games, are more consistent. Once you accept that you are never goint to play as devastatingly spectacular as WLC (unless you are destroying a pinp pong player) it is possible to polish what you can do, and intead of having a game that is in constant turmoil, because you are constantly trying to emulate the latest star (when I was young I changed who I was copying weekly) you can find a settled game, YOUR game, and maybe improve your results.
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dragon kid
Premier Member Joined: 07/28/2007 Status: Offline Points: 2947 |
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He answering to you but not answering your point anton..
To me copying is copying.. whether you copy a pro's serve, return, forehand, backhand, lobbing. It doesn't mean you copy one player in particular, you may ha WLQ FH, Schlager BH, Ma Lin's serves for all i care.. Mind you sometimes video of a pro is the closest thing one have to a coach. Since I believe many members of this forum lack access to quality training and coach.. |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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The essence of my explanation, was to try and differentiate between copying visually 'on the surface' and copying properly. One is a poor relation of the other, copying aspects of technique is difficult, because each aspect is not an entity, but linked to others.
Improving players present themselves with new problems with each step of improvement, until they reach a point where the problems are insurmountable if they are not able to train to the level required to overcome them, at this point they stop improving. The realistic route to take for their own personal improvement at this point IMO is to look closer to home and copy players nearer to their standard.
So 'copying the pros' is always the correct thing to do, If it involves upping your training schedule to to 40 hours a week and employing a good coach.
If not, it may not be the best thing for you, you are just scratching the surface of what you are trying to achieve.
I just happen to believe too many players miss their realistic potential because they aim higher than their constraints allow.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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mudr.nudl
Super Member Joined: 12/27/2008 Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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c)
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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the same problem exists wiggy who ever you copy 1 copy the greats but only copy things which you cant do because you dont train enough for
2 copy good players at your club and copy all there bad habits since you dont see any better
Its by far more important to know what is the best way and then to get real.
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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for Example if you are the best player at your club and I copied all your flaws, what good would that do?
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LOOPMEISTER
Platinum Member Joined: 11/13/2008 Location: U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 2486 |
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ughh, this thread is still going?
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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it seems to me Wiggy wants everyone to agree to the dogmatic position he started hammering that we should never try to be like the best players. If you start look like you are than you are a pretender.
Get over it, you are a coach with too much to lose on this point. Accept the reality Wiggy, a player can take many parts of great players game and make it their own. Stop being so negative about it, of course there is no such thing as watching a video and then becoming that player, that's a ridiculous notion not worth stating.
It just seems to me that you are trying to justify your coaching ability more than anything else. bang.
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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your signature is so dam wacky! what the hell? I mean dont get me wrong I think 05 is the best rubber too. but how did you create that animation?
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LOOPMEISTER
Platinum Member Joined: 11/13/2008 Location: U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 2486 |
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NO. Emulating, copying, pretending to be pro, being a wanna-be etc, is a good thing even if simply motivating someone to play more. Practicing more and getting a coach is the key to getting better, not the key to 'copying the pros' correctly. Trying to play beyond your own ability is an example of bad technique, shot selection, lack of experience, lack of a coach, etc. It doesn't make a difference if you are making things up, copying the player next to you, copying the best player in your club, or a pro. And if someone's only looking at the surface of what a pro does, its not a bad thing... Rather than stop looking at a pro, you tell them to look closer. |
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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do like the last sentence = copy and look closer.
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LOOPMEISTER
Platinum Member Joined: 11/13/2008 Location: U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 2486 |
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A coach will look at a player and analyze their game... "hmm, bad shot selection, poor recovery, fh stroke needs work, etc... But its good that they are trying..."
A jerk will look at a player and say, "why is that person pretending?" |
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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bang bang loopmeister drops a heavier one. lol
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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Really think that point was so deep. Answers it all for me. Instead of saying dont copy, say copy better. Its positive and not elitist like saying I dont emulate anyone now I have my own great way. Follow me boys! da da da
Do you have trouble trying to improve? Have you been trying so hard to improve and have reached a wall? Don't worry Wiggy will wow u with wonderful wisdom on how to win without trying.
The wiggy way is 20p, but if you buy now he'll throw in a forehand relaxant so you cant even try even if you want too.
sorry Wig I was trying to be serious at the start but my abrasive nature got the better of me. I was actually trying to copy you, the professional.
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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Most of the people who copy pros can look as close as they like but they still won't understand what is going on. I could watch an author write a book, but it won't help me write one any better.
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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terrible analogy there jkc
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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watch someone write? writing is not the action, you have to read the words follow the story,
Watching someone play you watch there actions, you read the movement the anticipations the setups.
If you read the book look deeper into it. I studied English Literature and my course made me study all the greats. Learn the structures by reading them and then you see the patterns and you can take them and put your own message into them your own goals or desires.
If you dont read you cant write!
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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Wait a minute, I have an idea. I'll make Fred read my university Maths Textbooks over the next few weeks then he won't have to bother studying Maths at school for the next 12 years. We'll just skip that bit. Should be easy enough.
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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Again another person so loosely using the words "copy pros" what a waste of text. Every one has copied pros, you need to be specific here. Copying a serve by a pro doesnt actually take immense physical strength. I have copied many of them and take the ones I like and give me the returns I want.
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Heimdallalso
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1861 |
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This is most probably, an "unfair" characterization. WE do not know the motivation behind such a reaction or statement ("why is that person pretending?") but if we take the time & more importantly, want to see more clearly, we can come to a different understanding. Why do people insist on being offended? bozbrisvegas, do you cling to you position so tightly you are unable to see or hear another? You want to be heard right? Hear another. Neither you or wiggy is right or wrong. The truth is likely to be found somewhere in between. |
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LOOPMEISTER
Platinum Member Joined: 11/13/2008 Location: U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 2486 |
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Thanks for finally supporting my point. Jerk. |
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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LOOPMEISTER
Platinum Member Joined: 11/13/2008 Location: U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 2486 |
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Yes we do. A pompous, smug, albeit hastily written forum post. |
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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That is the point, most people can't see what is going on on the Table either. People like to think they can. I suspect that the players who think they see most are the ones who are the worst players. Do I know what is going on when I watch professional TT? I know a little, but players above me know more and see more. Players below me know and see less and then they copy the little that they see when there is so much that they don't see.
When you reach a a certain standard you start to see into the next level, you can't look too far ahead. As you improve you start to realise how much of the game you don't know. If you look at a level too high things are just masked by the parts of a players game which makes them so good.
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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LOOPMEISTER, lighten up a little, you are acting like a playground bully who crushes people who don't agree with him. Well you are not getting my lunchmoney. I am entitled to my opinion and am not going to be bullied into silence and neither should anyone else. If you don't agree, then you are entitled to put your point if view over. Please do so in a more pleasant manner and stop insulting people.
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bozbrisvegas
Premier Member Joined: 09/27/2008 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 3728 |
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What? This is somehow a better analogy?
Firstly your mate Fred needs to study from other examples. Or otherwise he will make the same mistakes or even worse he could spend 12 years adding up things instead of multiplying them. Thats what happens to people who dont see good players playing. He needs to study from the best teacher possible not someone who tells him "Fred you'll never improve, you'll never be as smart as me"
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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It isn't a better analogy, the first one was fine.
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