Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?

boaspirit wrote: contact is early when playing against chopper

 . . . . "It's all about timing."



Edited by tommyzai - 02/20/2014 at 2:56pm

boaspirit wrote: . . . question is how can i loop and counterloop faster using the body is slow but powerful

I think recent rule changes were all in favour of the rest of the world, and were partly aimed at trying to curb Chinese dominance.

chinese loop is so slow but i like it more because it feels like im doing the work and when i get a good one it feels great

question is how can i loop and counterloop faster using the body is slow but powerful

ttTurkey wrote: APW46 wrote: Comparing TT to Running is just not applicable ( Copying Usain Bolt) technique is only a part of Table tennis, there are so many other factors that go in to making a top player. There can be two players with exactly the same technique, but one is far better than the other. Copying the top Chinese players won't work for other nations because they don't have the numbers to work with, Chinese players are the cream of the cream of the cream, other nations only have the cream x1.  In History the very few times the Chinese have been beaten ( Hungary Sweden) it was because the opponents were playing differently, not copying.  England has had a Chinese head coach for about 15 yrs now (Jia Yi Lui) and regularly has sent players to train in China, no sign of any Ma Longs yet, I wonder why?  Back to the history lesson, against the Hungarians, the Chinese were the fittest fastest most agile players on the planet, but they lost simply because the could not cope with the heavy Glue powered topspin of Jonyer, Gergely and Klampar, what did they do about it? they tried to adapt their own style of play to cope using LP combination hitters to counteract the topspin, but were again beaten by the Swedes who had upped the game by taking the ball earlier and with more power. This time they Changed tack and adopted the more 'Euro style' led by Kong Ling Hui, and have gradually become more dominant, using the huge pyramid base of players to perfect the modern style of play. Its impossible to Copy China, but when China copies, beware. Good summary, basically you can't out-China China, you have to out innovate China. There are a couple of things that frustrate me when I hear people complain about not being able to beat China because of China's number of players / system / bla bla: 1. It has been done before, albeit not very often. 2. I could be wrong, but China seems to be pushing the envelope the hardest on developing new styles and techniques while other nations appear to be resigned to their fate (perhaps a mistaken perception on my part)

APW46 wrote: Comparing TT to Running is just not applicable ( Copying Usain Bolt) technique is only a part of Table tennis, there are so many other factors that go in to making a top player. There can be two players with exactly the same technique, but one is far better than the other. Copying the top Chinese players won't work for other nations because they don't have the numbers to work with, Chinese players are the cream of the cream of the cream, other nations only have the cream x1.  In History the very few times the Chinese have been beaten ( Hungary Sweden) it was because the opponents were playing differently, not copying.  England has had a Chinese head coach for about 15 yrs now (Jia Yi Lui) and regularly has sent players to train in China, no sign of any Ma Longs yet, I wonder why?  Back to the history lesson, against the Hungarians, the Chinese were the fittest fastest most agile players on the planet, but they lost simply because the could not cope with the heavy Glue powered topspin of Jonyer, Gergely and Klampar, what did they do about it? they tried to adapt their own style of play to cope using LP combination hitters to counteract the topspin, but were again beaten by the Swedes who had upped the game by taking the ball earlier and with more power. This time they Changed tack and adopted the more 'Euro style' led by Kong Ling Hui, and have gradually become more dominant, using the huge pyramid base of players to perfect the modern style of play. Its impossible to Copy China, but when China copies, beware.

Good summary, basically you can't out-China China, you have to out innovate China.

There are a couple of things that frustrate me when I hear people complain about not being able to beat China because of China's number of players / system / bla bla:

1. It has been done before, albeit not very often.

2. I could be wrong, but China seems to be pushing the envelope the hardest on developing new styles and techniques while other nations appear to be resigned to their fate (perhaps a mistaken perception on my part)

Comparing TT to Running is just not applicable ( Copying Usain Bolt) technique is only a part of Table tennis, there are so many other factors that go in to making a top player. There can be two players with exactly the same technique, but one is far better than the other. Copying the top Chinese players won't work for other nations because they don't have the numbers to work with, Chinese players are the cream of the cream of the cream, other nations only have the cream x1. 

tomtat92 wrote: In a year I have been studying Ma Longs technique because I was very intrested to know how it would feels to play like Ma Long. Under this year of exploration and researching I have learnd so much about table tennis, how the body works, and how I can use my new knowledge in tabletennis in meny other sports like Handball, swimming, Athletics etc.  I have been struggling a lot under this year, losing to meny bad players, lost my confident totaly because of my technique changing, meny missunderstandings about the how the technique should be, learning the wrong technique, meny peoples who thought I should go back to my normal style, and so on.  But here and then I got true insights about the technique. I understood which grip i should use, how I should use my legs, waist. I understood how much importans the left shoulders and arm has to be able to have a stable upperbody, and make the rotation in waist much faster and in a more natural motion for the body. A stable body is the most important thing if you are searching for controll in your game.  Ma Long is outstanding in this I think.  When im playing now, I always know why I miss and how I did that perfect shot. I can always correct myself and it gives me big confidence. Last month I have always been on top every training, every match, because I know how to be on top technicaly. Tierdness is the only treat against a good training session.  I didn't thought it was possible for me to feel a bit what Ma Long feels when he plays, but atm i think i do so. I feel the controll, power from both wings, I can feel a bit of the quickness of Ma long and ZJK backhand counter, the big natural forehand swing with also fast recovery. And a much faster footwork.  Im so glad I tried to understand the chinese technique and what benefits it gives me compared to my old playingstyle. Belive it or not but I think Ma Long has the easiet technique of all players.

This is interesting.

Do you have a video of your sessions? You made me really curious.

tomtat92 wrote:   In a year I have been studying Ma Longs technique because I was very intrested to know how it would feels to play like Ma Long. Under this year of exploration and researching I have learnd so much about table tennis, how the body works, and how I can use my new knowledge in tabletennis in meny other sports like Handball, swimming, Athletics etc.  I have been struggling a lot under this year, losing to meny bad players, lost my confident totaly because of my technique changing, meny missunderstandings about the how the technique should be, learning the wrong technique, meny peoples who thought I should go back to my normal style, and so on.  But here and then I got true insights about the technique. I understood which grip i should use, how I should use my legs, waist. I understood how much importans the left shoulders and arm has to be able to have a stable upperbody, and make the rotation in waist much faster and in a more natural motion for the body. A stable body is the most important thing if you are searching for controll in your game.  Ma Long is outstanding in this I think.  When im playing now, I always know why I miss and how I did that perfect shot. I can always correct myself and it gives me big confidence. Last month I have always been on top every training, every match, because I know how to be on top technicaly. Tierdness is the only treat against a good training session.  I didn't thought it was possible for me to feel a bit what Ma Long feels when he plays, but atm i think i do so. I feel the controll, power from both wings, I can feel a bit of the quickness of Ma long and ZJK backhand counter, the big natural forehand swing with also fast recovery. And a much faster footwork.  Im so glad I tried to understand the chinese technique and what benefits it gives me compared to my old playingstyle. Belive it or not but I think Ma Long has the easiet technique of all players.

TTFrenzy wrote: NextLevel wrote: tomtat92 wrote: The pro´s is better because they are using there muscle in the optimal way. So why should i not be better if i can use my body in the same way as the Chinese players? All our bodies is looking almost the same, but the diffrens how we use them is huge, especially in table tennis. For example top runners, swimmers, cyclists are all using almost the same technique because they have find the best way of using the body to get the maximum out of the it. Why should it not be the same in table tennis? The chineses is dominating table tennis, and almost all of them is using their body in a similar way. Why should not the europeans look more on the chinese and try to understand their technique and see what benefits you earn from it? I dont think the chinese is better beause they train more, I think they are better because the have a more natural, effective bodymotion that allowe them to have quicker reflexes, faster footwork, and generally more spin, power and controll. Their knowledge about how the body works is the key to succes. Why should I not copy good technique from the best table tennisplayer, when runners is copying good technique from Usain Bolt?  Because 1) you may lack the athletic ability of Usain Bolt. 2) You may lack a special skill/trait that Usain Bolt has that makes his technique right for him (his long legs, for example). 3) You may misunderstand what goes into what Usain Bolt does and get injured going it. 4) Usain Bolt has access to professional coaching which helps regulate his errors that you do not have. 5) Usain Bolt has a training regimen that optimizes his body to his style and you don't know that regimen and have not optimized your body. 6) there may be small details that you may not see while copying Bolt. 7) Usain Bolt has to be world class - you may not have to be world class to get the results you desire. 8) You may be too old to put yourself through the stress that Usain Bolt puts his body through. Optimal means optimal way for them and i you are similar to them, go for it. Usually, to get a better forehand/backhand, get a coach who can work you through the errors given your goals or learn from a detailed video by a good player.  If you can surmount all the above difficulties (and there may be others unlisted), by all means, copy world class technique.  I have enjoyed learning from players and building my loop which uses no knees. and mostly wrist and arm action.  Does it have elements of a WLQ loop?  Sure, because all successful technique has similar physics.  But small things like how you grip your paddle might affect how a pro loops and if you don't know these things, you will be fairly lost. my point exactly ! if Ma Long's or Ma lin's FH is suitable for your playstyle tomtat then go for it . But remember that you will have to have great physical condition and years of experience and practice to support the technique of such large FH strokes .  Dont just mimic the best players , but copy them in a way that improves YOU as a player . There will be no 2nd ma long or ma lin or wang liqin . Every player is unique. Cheers

Edited by tomtat92 - 12/22/2012 at 1:02pm

ohhgourami wrote: Basic fh/bh counter teaches you a lot for feeling the ball - to make those micro-adjustments.

roundrobin wrote: blahness wrote: Most of the Chinese coaches won't even let you loop until you have almost completely mastered the basic FH/BH countering to a certain degree.  That's correct.    Unfortunately, most players in the U.S. never got properly instructions how to loop after they become fairly efficient at countering back and forth...

Most of the Chinese coaches won't even let you loop until you have almost completely mastered the basic FH/BH countering to a certain degree. 

blahness wrote: Some people when they start below, they won't know how to coordinate their waist and arm movement. What usually happens is that their arm becomes "glued" to their waist, which makes it even stiffer (they try to "lock" their arm to try to not let it move too much) which is contrary to what we want to achieve (good relaxed arm movement in harmony with the waist/legs) I find that the hard part for people is to apply force at the correct position on the ball in the correct manner, as well as consistency.   If you have the correct (relaxed) arm swing and it's consistent, it's really easy to add your waist and legs power to the stroke. Of course you have to "ban" them from trying to hit hard... which may be hard coz some people are just plain impatient. It's probably just two different approaches to solve the same problem (bottom-up, top-bottom approaches)

There are two distinctive "strokes" that you are somewhat confusing with each other.  One is the modern topspin loop, which is mostly executed with legs and waist rotation.  This is the only way to generate enough power against any type of ball, let it be a heavy chop or a loaded topspin drive.  The other is countering near the table against topspin, a more modern version of blocking.  Your description fits the latter, and not topspin loop.  There's no really other way to learn to loop properly without knowing how to use your legs and waist first.  You can't simply modify your countering technique to a looping technique... They are two completely different things.

You are absolutely correct that you must have a relaxed arm to loop, and most beginners can't do it because they lack accuracy when they relax.  This is precisely why you must learn to loop with your legs first because your arm and wrist could be stiff, but your legs will have to relax in order to push your body forward and rotate your waist.  Once you master proper lower body rotation then you add your upper body rotation, and finally your forearm rotation and wrist snap.  Think of it as building a pyramid... Start from bottom and finish on top (of the ball). 




Edited by roundrobin - 12/22/2012 at 12:58am