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Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand? |
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roundrobin
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I think even Waldner himself gave some credits to his numerous trainings in China when he was young... Read his interview here somewhere. |
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tabletennistips
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cool thread and very good topic
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abfd
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Answering the question of many, the main difference between euro and chinese players on their loop is the way they get near the ball and position of the arm. Euro loop is with the arm more flexed, which gives more control and you don't need to move very much when the ball is just aside of the player. However, when the ball goes away of the player, you need to move more. The chinese is just the opposite, but is has more power, more force.
Edited by abfd - 08/03/2011 at 5:20pm |
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channyboi
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Examples: Chinese Loop Rating : Speed 10 spin 7 European Loop Rating : Spin 9 Speed 7 It all depends, the chinese loop movemet creates an arc in the air. Tackiness plays a vital role in the chinese loop, without tackiness, the players wont get a set off even mizutani.
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Rack
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Tackiness makes a difference but not that big of a difference. I'm pretty sure if you switch the DHS rubber with something like Tenergy they would still be able to beat Mizutani pretty consistently. Theres still a giant skill gap between them.
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MrCrispy
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It seems to me one of the advantages of a straight arm technique is you have more options to vary the stroke and correct it based on the incoming ball, due to the longer length and the more relaxed feeling of a straight arm. This is also a disadvantage because there are more moving parts, thus more things to go wrong and it requires perfect technique as well as placement, and getting to the ball earlier.
An analogy is the modern 'whiplash' tennis forehand most easily seen in Federer. He revolutionized the game with his forehand, it was the best shot in tennis, and its a straight arm stroke which he can finish in different positions. The question is - which is technically superior? i.e. take a player who can hit both equally well. Give him same equipment. Assume physical fitness is not an issue. Measure the power output of both. Will we find a Chinese forehand has more speed+spin? Which stroke is physically more demanding? The obvious answer is Chinese, but is it really so? I think the Euro style places more stress on joints because it is very jerky, you start with your elbow cocked and thus tension already in your muscles. Whereas with Chinese style you begin with the arm loose and relaxed. But it needs more stamina and better footwork since its not designed to be hit out of position. The pros can play with anything, its all about technique. Give them a rubber without tackiness and they will adapt in 5min. |
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ohhgourami
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Nope, the tackiness mostly plays into the mechanics of the loop. Players like Li Ping could easily get a set of Mizutani. If you didn't know, Li Ping uses euro rubbers on both sides and is a training partner fir the main team. If Mizutani had to use H3, he probably wouldn't be able to loop the ball past the net. |
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Fruit loop
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If you gave mizutani or boll the same quality of rubber as the chinese team has, they would adjust just as well. I gave my hurricane to a very good chilliean player and he had no trouble adjusting, he just preferred his tenergy64 |
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ohhgourami
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I meant that Mizutani cannot produce enough power to fully utilize H3. Compared to many pros, his loops are already considered weak. That guy loops fh with his right foot in front which means no power. In matches when he is doing mid distance rallies, many times he will lose points when the ball is semi dead. The ball usually eats the net for him meaning he borrows a power instead of actively hitting. |
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Fruit loop
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I somewhat agree that he isn't the most powerful player but insinuating that the 6th ranked player in the world will loop in the net because of a rubber change is poorly thought out comment. |
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racquetsforsale
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What exactly do you mean by "with his right foot in front"? He's left-handed, right? He's supposed to have his right foot in front and left foot back. |
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ohhgourami
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@Fruitloop Mere exaggeration to get my point across. He isn't going to loop into the net but he will lose a lot of power especially with his hitting style.
@racquetsforsale oops I mean left foot in front as a lefty. here is a vid of it too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSKKANwSB9M |
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figgie
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Wow..Seriously!!!
I brush the dust off this account and the sleepyness from my summer ping pong hibernation and lo and behold, the first thread here is this infernal topic still being harped on?? geez!!!
lol!! Edited by figgie - 09/06/2011 at 3:02pm |
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quocvinh727
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Chinese table tennis is like a Corporate, while european table tennis is like a small business venture. China has awesome research team studying and developing table tennis techniques to produce the highest quality of techniques that they possibly can. Due to the lack of investment in the research in the european, ofcourse the techniques that they use has lower quality then the chinese players. Imagine if you have to compare the products quality of a corporate vs. small business venture. absolutely the corporate has to have higher in products quality. With that being said, chinese technique of forehand loop has to be more effective then the european. Europe found the technique, and China, with their research teams, refine it and make it most effective in this modern table tennis.
French junior players start learning from the chinese and their loops are very similar to the way chinese player loop - compact but exploresive-. watch out for those junior players.
chinese loop is very detail and technical - while european loop is not. if something is detail and technical, they should be better in quality and more effective in use.
for the amateur players like us; it doesn't matter much which style we are using, because more likely we don't have enough time to train ourself to perfect either techniques. However, finding a good coach is important. so that we can maximize our learning and improve our FH loop fast in lesser time.
great topic
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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If we look carefully at the Maze vs ML vid We can begin to understand why Maze may be having back and shoulder problems, and by extension some people who do the euro loop in a similar way.
I only want everyone to focus the structure of the arm up to and including the shoulder joint. Maze- Imagine a torque wrench with a 3 inch socket extension. now imagine the forearm as the long part of the wrench. The elbow as the wrench head where you attach the socket, and inside the shoulder is the bolt that is being turned. Now when you are looking at the video you can see, as he transitions into the forward stroke, the paddle remains relatively motionless while his torso, upper arm, and elbow move forward. Then his forearm catches up to the rest of the body and begins to move forward until he strikes the ball. Because his arm is bent at close to 90 degrees it looks almost exactly like a torque wrench tightening a bolt. At the speeds that he swings this is putting allot of stress on his shoulder joint. ML- I think the critical difference can be seen if we look at the orientation of the elbow. specifically the top where the elbow folds. When ML starts to come forward the top of the elbow is facing in the direction of the swing. He can than contract his bicep in the same direction and plane as the overall stroke, giving him more stability and the ability to add more power without to much wasted motion. You can do this with a bent arm but the shoulder joint is more stable if you start the motion with your arm more extended. Does not have to be 180' more like 130'-160'. My 02. Edited by V-Griper - 09/30/2011 at 2:16am |
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aroonkl
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His real loop is normal, eventhough his rear/power leg is not very deep behind front leg. But they are in position as normal.
min 4.59 Edited by aroonkl - 10/29/2011 at 4:47am |
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Baal
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well said |
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right2niru
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right2niru
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1NsAnE
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I like it most Ma Long forehand
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1NsAnE
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Europeans are slower..
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Lestat
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Edited by Lestat - 02/21/2012 at 8:03am |
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Lestat
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Just noticed this is an old post, nevertheless I will chime in with my 2 cents. I couldn't disagree more strongly with the above. There is a reason Britain doesn't have more than a few and far between players in the top 1500 WR, and it comes down to this attitude of being happy with playing ping-pong in the church hall on a Friday evening, and going for a beer afterwards. Not only that but everybody should be encouraged to do the same, cause 'That's the spirit!'. I'm a brit too so I know a few things about that. I will say one thing though, emulating your club's best player is in the vast majority of the cases just as bad as developing your own individual style without any guidance. A cramped, quirky, basement-type style will only get one so far. Not starting with (or adjusting to) the right technique is like trying to build a house on mud, like running the 1600m race with lead boots. Yes, it will get you somewhere but given the same amount of training I will be much faster than you in trainers, and yet slower than an olympic athlete - no surprise there. Some players are naturally born for the game and they'll get a bit further but still, their cramped style is a pair of lead boots, they just don't realize it. There's an old saying in the horse racing world: 'keep yourself in the best company, and your horse in the worst'. A young player, or any age for that matter as long as they can still swing the will have infinitely more to learn from watching top players on youtube rather than taking advise from the club's 'pro'. There are exceptions of course but as a general statement it stands 100% correct. I cringe when I hear the older, seasoned players in my club giving 'technical advice' to the beginners. How many of them really studied this game? None! How many of them have watched themselves play on tape? None! How many of them can recognize a good stroke off the table from a bad one which brings a point? None! If you have any pretense at playing this game right you have to learn how to swing and move correctly and hone that skill in before you can afford to have an 'individual' style. Contrary to popular belief, this doesn't take too long if you're looking in the right direction. Once you've got that, there is a very long road to the top towards consistency, but at the very least it will be a very linear road: you'll reap what you put in. One last thing, I hear you muttering away "How do I know I have a cramped style'? Well, tape your fh and bh practice and watch it against your favourite top player's practice. There should be very little difference between the two. I say practice because that's where the cleanest shots are, during a game one may have to bend a rule or two depending on the situation. And remember, you're watching movement not consistency. Consistency comes with practice.
Edited by Lestat - 02/21/2012 at 11:17am |
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L2Pivot
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I completely agree with you. No one here really cares enough to really improve their technique, nor do they seem to have any interest in international events or players. Sure they may admire the 'big forehand' of a certain player from another club, but to me there's more of a mentality to survive than a mentality to win. |
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Timo Boll2
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You're wrong. There are people who want to improve their technique, otherwise they wouldn't be here. Why do you have to survive If you can win?
And what's that logic you got there? Everyone here cares for table tennis competitions and everything else, otherwise they wouldn't have been there. So don't you say it again as you're wrong.
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AndySmith
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I think sweeping statements about all members of the forum are always going to be wrong. Some of us are hardcore tourney players who train hard. Some of us are laid back recreational players who just love the social aspects of the sport. And everything in between.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Leshxa
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I have stayed away from this thread for quite some time because this same discussion always comes up. Which loop is better? Which technique is better?
I think there is no such thing about a "better" technique, because each player has his or her technique. The basic of learning it could be the same, but the end result will not be identical, it will be completely different because every player has a different feeling. Each and every player also plays differently from everyone else. There could be some similarities, but there will never be an exact copy. This is true in every sport. Regarding coaching, no country can compare with Chinese religious practice. It is the time they dedicate to work on their skills that is superior. They certainly have great fundamentals, but they have the program that is able to manufacture players with ease through many years. They have a system that filters out true talents from others in the group. The players developed by this system flourish and maintain a top level status in the world. Other countries do not have a system that aligns all of its coaches into a program. Look at the US. Every player had their own coach for some time (if they have a coach), then once improvement comes, there is another coach, then once a national team is achieved, there is another coach. Maybe other coaches along the way too. For the most part, I question whether the coaches are merely trainers. They can help tweak a thing or two, but the player is the only one who can track their own progress. Players need a coach that can recognize best players qualities and envision their future and work on developing that future. If there is a different coach every time suggesting different things and the coaches do not coordinate in unison, what is the outcome? Players need someone with a VISION! It is not enough to simply mimic the style of world #1 at the time and expect same results!!! Players need coaches that can BUILD their own top players and for that you need a system that tracks player's growth and development. By building their players I don't even mean changing the technique to what the coach knows because he/she plays this way. They should understand the technique utilized by the player and try to make it more effective, only changing it radically if something is halting progress. With someone driving your development, it is easier to improve because you can focus on developing YOUR game instead of copying someone else's. Also, too many players are focused on strokes instead of their full game. I am not the best player, but I am a typical example of a player who is improving without having a top level coach. People give me the weird look EVERY time when I introduce them to my coach, but he was capable of teaching the technique by allowing my own style to develop. He actually said, "do not watch the pros. Trust me." He also said, "I will not show you my loop because you will do it your own way anyways". He said, "We will try to create your loop so that it has all the necessary consistency and effects with whatever execution you will find best suitable for you." While I was learning my forehand, many people kept coming up and suggesting different things I should do with my forehand and how I did things wrong. Well, there aren't any more left with suggestions, now these same people come up with questions instead. To this day, my technique keeps CHANGING. It is EVOLVING automatically when I practice on different elements. I am still making mistakes, but its a work in progress. So why even question what kind of loop or technique is better? I know what kind is better! The one that you can win points, games, and matches with!!! Remember the old commercial by Sprite "Image is nothing?" Well, only one image is good - image of you on the podium with a trophy or a check! |
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Back to table tennis...
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L2Pivot
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Sorry, what I meant was 'here' as in my current actual location (Scotland). Even so, I do believe I made a sweeping statement so I do apologise. Instead what I should have said was, 'most people that I have met in the clubs here'. But despite the error in communication I stick by my intended point: Most players here live in a bubble.
In my opinion, that's terrible advice. Sure, you could misinterpret certain things and pick up bad habits, but what's the harm in watching the pros? I'm assuming you have the required critical thinking ability to be able to determine whether something is conducive to your game. On that note, when people give you advice, take it with a pinch of salt. When a coach gives you advice, take it with a grain of salt. What I'm trying to get at here is that only you can feel your arm swinging, or your knees bending. I've had people comment that my stance is wrong or that I'm not spinning the ball enough, when the actual problem was that my timing was just off! Regarding stroke development, I believe that it is much more sensible to have a top-down approach than a bottom-up approach. What I mean by this is, try and develop a forehand technique that is as fast and as spinny as you can possibly manage - try and utilise as many muscle groups as possible and ensure that they all work in harmony with each other. Obviously with the first few attempts you will not be able to execute the shot consistently. This is where practice comes into play so that you can familiarise yourself with the timing, acceleration etc. If you have a decent coach, then this would be made much easier for you as they know exactly what to look for. Contrast this with the bottom-up approach, where you start off with a bog-standard 'brush-over-the-ball' stroke. You then tweak and tweak and tweak your stroke until you can play a stroke that is more powerful and spinny than when you first started learning it. The problem with this however, is that you have no idea how much more your technique can improve - is it the best you can do? Is it as efficient as you can make it? These two approaches are kind of what lie at the root of the 'copying the pros' vs. 'find your own stroke' argument. I'd say that there is a fuzzy area between the two; you can incorporate technical gems gleaned from other players into your game, as well as developing your strokes accordingly to your physical limitations. I am however, heavily biased towards learning from the pros, especially if you already have a good idea of the basics. Think of it this way: the professionals get quality training from their coaches, they exhibit the training in publicly viewable matches, and we study the results. The only caveat would be, as already stated, misinterpretation of technique (and maybe a few injuries or two if you get overzealous ). This is what I think the main purpose of a coach is. His goal is not to help you find footholes in a mountain to climb as such, but to show you the peak of the mountain and to make you stretch for the shortest route. To summarise, I guess the only reason why you wouldn't want to imitate the best would be if you're missing a limb or if you are more... prominently built. Edited by L2Pivot - 02/27/2012 at 6:24am |
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NextLevel
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L2Pivot,
I agree with you up to a point. Where I disagree with you is on two things: 1)I don't believe that there is any serious way to avoid having to rebuild your stroke. So no matter how good you make your stroke, you will likely only tune it to adapt to the problems you have to solve today. 2) Therefore, I don't think that there is any serious contrast between your first and second approaches. The reasons why one may not watch the pros is that one may not be gifted enough to do what the pros do, one may not understand what the pros are doing, and the pros actually rarely hit "textbook strokes" but are doing highly individualized things that came from one of a kind practice/talent on many occasions. Therefore, I think it is very important to understand the physics of table tennis and to truly understand spin. I found out the hard way (thanks to Pnatchwey and one of my in person mentors) that it's all about racket speed and where you contact the ball. That's it. As much as people mock Pnatchwey, he understands the science of the sport far more than most people do. Many people are ruining their strokes by aping pros without understanding the physics of the game. There are lots of ways to hit underspin/topspin strokes but without the understanding of the physics, you can't understand the advantages and disadvantages. After that, the rest is all about how to physically co-ordinate your athletic ability to match the ball striking. But what is unfortunate is that people teach all this nonsense about Chinese forehand, European forehand etc. The bottom line is that if you strike the ball at a point with a certain kind of racket at a certain speed, things happen to it. Certain things can make that easier or harder. Yet people waste time with covering the ball etc. when those things are not part of the spin, but may be part of other things that might be important, but are not the spin. Edited by NextLevel - 02/27/2012 at 8:16am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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L2Pivot
Member Joined: 12/19/2011 Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Hi NextLevel, thanks for the reply.
I fear that my communicative skills are lacking today, probably because I haven't slept for more than a day. You are right, no matter what your stroke you will still need to adjust it to make it work for you. What I'm saying is, if you start with something that is effective but uncomfortable to play, it's simpler to train in order to get used to it. Contrast that with starting with something that is comfortable to play but relatively ineffective; you'll have to build everything from the ground up. This difference in development is what I'm trying to convey. On your other point, if the physics were any more complicated then more and more top players would converge upon the same stroke. So yes, I agree with you on this, and I've actually made a thread here in the Coaching forum just to illustrate it. But you can't deny that the Chinese have it all figured out. |
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