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Heavy Bottom spin opponent. |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Posted: 04/26/2010 at 9:17pm |
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Hi I am having trouble returning underspin when they are LONG from a member of my club. He is a chinese penholder and his serves and pushes are loaded with under spin and I haven't return one of his serves! I started TT around 2 months ago and had no formal training or coaching so any tips and advice are welcomed.
I also have trouble most of the time when a opponent pushes it long fast and spinny after I serve any advice on that also? I use a straight-arm loop and my equipment is the TBS , h3 neo FH and the boost tc Bh I attack the ball with a 90-80 angle like for any ball and I lift upwards. Please go in to detail about the stroke if you can. Thanks Kev SORRY I MEANT WHEN THEY WERE LONG (which they always are |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Angle your paddle more upward.
And for short balls, slam the high ones, push the low ones. |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Thanks for the tips
you edited your post haha |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Haha I feel your pain... school has been killing me
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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Since you have no formal training, I don't really have a way to ascertain your knowledge. So, please forgive me if these are too "low level" for you. The first two are what to do against short balls (or serves) and the last one is what to do against long balls (or serves). Of course, these techniques take a while to develop. I suggest finding a coach, but maybe these short clips will steer you in the right direction.
backhand push. forehand push. forehand loop. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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O not at all. Like I said anything from beginners to more advanced technique is welcomed. I wish I had the money for a coach . But I've improved A LOT even without one. I notice my own mistakes and I usually am able to improve on it and I also have this forum with all the great tips and advice from fellow members , I am thankful . But this is one of the things that bugging me more than other aspects of my game . |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Firstly, you started 2 months ago and you're having trouble with control. First thing you need to do is get a setup more fit for your level. A TBS with H3/Boost isn't really the ideal setup for beginner who can't read spin or control the ball.
Second, if his serves are heavy underspin (assuming you're reading it correctly), you need to literally get under the ball and lift it up if you're trying to push it back
Third, if you decide to FH it and assuming its heavy, you need to bend your legs low, and start with your blade close to your knees way under the table. On impact use your wrist upwards but drive the ball forward. Use your leg power to give it the upwards momentum over the net. Your stroke should always go forward with H3. You also have to hit into the ball, it can't be a any form of passive shot. Most likely since you've had no training and probably very little feel you won't be able to accomplish this. Your best option is to either push it back or do the safety loop. Your blade should come under the ball.... kinda like this O/ then just float it forward. It'll get it over the net but it'll be a very weak return.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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damitkwr
Beginner Joined: 02/06/2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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i agree change ur set up first for especially your forehand rubber to non-neo version h3. Trust me this will help you alot!! When you finally get top spinning with the non neo btw non neo h3 feels really good! lol aniwayz when u start really crazy top spins with your non neo imagine what you can do with your neo with you now improved technique!! imagine the possibility :D
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Wouldn't highly not recommend not going NEO... Non NEO #20 would be way way way too hard if not speedglued or tuned. |
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Thanks, I tried many blades and rubbers and I can control all of them well and my friend let me try his TBS it was awesome! The rubbers on the other hand maybe a wrong choice. Ive used the Mark V and the Sriver they were easy to control but I think the straight arm chinese loop is for me and I like chinese rubber better plus they are cheaper . I'be been told by coaches at my club I am good and my loop drive is very powerful and I am pretty consistent I would say 90% on my hard loop drives land on the table.And I use the commercial version which people say is slow .Sorry if i sound too defensive but I'm just telling it the way it is . Anyways back on topic , so when I usually attack a underspin ball I attack it like a drive . I contact the ball with the bat angled at 80-90 degrees then push it forward and then upwards and then turning the bat over depending on the height of the ball and/or spin. But Sometime times it just pops off my bat , What am I doing wrong? What am I missing? |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Post a video?
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Jonan
Premier Member Joined: 02/18/2009 Location: Elsweyr Status: Offline Points: 2933 |
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Serves take lots of experience to get, but once you get adjusted over time they just happen. I don't really think about returning serves anymore. It took around 1 1/2 years of playing every week. At my club I play 2100 rated people every week and I occasionally pop up a serve return on my backhand because I switch the type of rubber I use back there and they kill it, but I push 85% of serves to my backhand, block 5%, flick 10%. Forehand I push like 70% and flick back 30% or so. But I seldom ever push anything into the net or off the table, my mid-game going from server return to get into the high speed still sucks, that's the next area that will come up for you, the short spiny loop near the table, over the table flicks, whatever. Usually a weak push of mine leads to them opening up...
Lower level players do mostly topspin and sidespin serves, higher up you get lots more variety and very heavy backspin. You're not alone though, there's a guy at the club I can beat just by serving obvious heavy backspin to every time, pushes it into the bottom of the net. Pushing is a very delicate touch to know the angle and how much you come under the ball or lift. You just have to feel it after a while. It's not really something you can watch a video and get, takes anticipating the really heavy backspin and knowing the touch, I can't really describe it, just happens naturally. |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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O, I don't really have any problem pushing just the long fast and spinny ones are the ones that catch me off guard.
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Having a slower, more flexible, 5 ply all wood setup would still allow him to reinforce his techniques. The difference is in the level of feel and touch he will gain from it. The more he feels, the faster he learns how to control all the lil nuances from spin to dwell time to learning strokes. The faster he learns to control, the more he'll improve at a faster rate. Landing kill shots at a 90% clip (which I highly doubt unless you're some super pro) is great and all but whats the use when you can't even get to your kill shot due to the inability to control a serve return or the unability to open off of underspin? It's meaningless at this point of his development. Always learn control/placement before power. |
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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I have to agree with Rack. Your logic that fast gear will enforce proper technique is flawed. While his gear will certainly punish some bad technique, it won't necessarily encourage good technique. In fact, I would argue that fast gear encourages arm and wrist play (because people will frequently skip the step of learning to generate the combination of power and stability with legs and core). The Evidence: Every Sub-US1600 Blocking Chickwing+FH puncher / "ball guider" who plays with tiny strokes because their (Schlager Carbon, Primorac Carbon, insert fast blade here) is simply too fast for them. That's why I said "Post a Video". And while some lower intermediate players can certainly get away using gear this quick, it's often because they are already using their legs and core for stability. And just so I make my position completely clear: A TBS with those rubbers makes about as much sense as putting a teenager with a Learner's Permit into a Ferrari. Sure can go fast in straight lines. Right into a tree. |
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FireHorse
Silver Member Joined: 09/05/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 567 |
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@ keven702,
If you know that your technique is good than all I can say that keep going at it, and anticipating more. If the long push keeps you off guard, it means that you are waiting for a short one and maybe you stand too close to the table and ready to push instead of loop. About looping backspin push, you have to work on it a lot and I say that you will need to remember to bend down low, weight on your right foot (I assume you are the right-hander), turn your waist slightly to the back, arm straight down low, and then starting to turn your waist, pushing up with your right foot, arm moving up and loop the ball (someone says that when looping backspin, imagine you are throwing something very heavy over the table or maybe over an imagine wall). I lost to a backspin pusher for about a year before I got over him so you might have to lose a lot of matches against your opponent before you can get better. Hope that helps. FireHorse |
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Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon FH: Andro Rassant Grip BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Agreed. Fast gear is BAD for technique development. My coaches used to say no one under 2000 US rating needs a blade faster than All and/or boosted rubbers...
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Yeah totally agree with Icon and Round... I see beginners using Schlagers alot and sure they might get a killshot or 2 and look great. But seriously, most of em can't control the thing.
Another important thing is, having a super fast setup in the beginning will gimp your power later on. This is because the blade will be doing all the work for you and you think you have alot of power but it's really the blade doing all the work for you. With a slower setup, you learn how to really focus your power using your body, arms, wrist, legs, waist and you can feel MUCH MUCH more what a difference each one makes.
Plus I can guarantee 100% that his unforced errors will go down drastically with a slower setup and encourage rallies to go longer which is another good benefit when you're developing because you can actually play out points longer and learn how to stay in rallies. Once you learn how to focus the power you'll also be able to finish it.
Once all your strokes are ready and you can focus everything with your body to get power on the slower blade as well as the feel to control, you'll be amazed what happens when you then move to a faster blade. Thats when you'll be able to really unleash the power of a faster blade.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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FireHorse
Silver Member Joined: 09/05/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 567 |
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+1 |
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Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon FH: Andro Rassant Grip BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 6898 |
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You know, I watched the fh and bh push videos, and I really don't like the form they demonstrate. I was taught and I believe that your racket movement should be parallel to the table, a couple inches over it. I don't like that "start high and chop down" motion at all.
That said, I noticed that they didn't really DO that once they started demonstrating with a ball. They kept their pushes more level like I would do.
Also, on the fh side you have to be ready to lay that racket out and point the tip out when the ball is short. I'd like to see them do that one from low to high!
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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They were the first instructional vids I came across on Youtube. However, I would add that the angle of the blade is dependent upon the perception of the magnitude of incoming spin. Have an angle parallel to the table against a ball with very light backspin and you'll soon be wearing that ball. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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mhnh007
Platinum Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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I think Cole mean the stroke movement of the push. I do the same to, but if need to put back spin into mu push then I do start high and chop down as told in the video, however to do this you need to chop the ball right off the bounce or else it will be netted. |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 6898 |
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Anton, yes, the blade angle varies according to your read of backspin. But the path of the stroke should always be in a straight, horizontal line imo barely above the table. Not "U-ing" under the ball, nor chopping downward into it.
That is, unless you're pushing against topspin, which is a very advanced technique pro's use as an excuse to pound the crap out of tables! :)
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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I see. Thanks for the clarification, Cole. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Thanks guys but please don't you worry about my ability to put power on the ball. I've trained in tennis and play racquetball so I know how to use my whole body to put power into the ball ( I'm not one of those stiff kids that can't move). I've been at a pretty decent level at every sport I played. But with TT is more of a hobby I don't plan on joining any tournaments. I just feel TT is fun but not being able to attack underspin consistently makes it less enjoyable. Someone mentioned that my "killshot" do not land 90% of the time, I do not know what that means do you mean killshot as in all my power 100%? If you mean that then Yes i do miss when i put all my power into a shot but I mostly put 50-70% of my power into a shot which lands 90% and this fellow at my club who uses pimpled out rubbers and blocks peoples loop drives to train them told me he has trouble blocking my shots and he trains guys that are 2000+ regularly and one of them is 2600+! If im not mistaken ( it says so on the my clubs website)
So with that said I still need tips on underspin just for a more enjoyable gameplay sorry for the lack of grammar .. just finished a 2 hour exam |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 6898 |
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Anybody can hit the ball hard and NOT make it land on the table!
Also, I don't know how old you are, but the older you are the more likely you become to enjoy TT more than tennis or racketball. If you care enough now to post, you'll go to a tournament someday I bet.
Anyway, you can generate the good racket speed but don't sink into the ball quite so much. You still give closer to 100% (maybe 85%), but you generate a much safer shot.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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The reason why we say you probably dont know how to use your body is because thats what pulling underspin requires. If you don't put your body into it and just try to arm it up... not gonna be consistent. Also you should know Pro's probably can come close to landing at a 90% clip, but a untrained amateur? I highly highly doubt that. Also everyone has given you tips already... the rest is up to you to learn it. |
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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O I mean i can hit it hard and land 90% i mean with 50-70% power and people say its a hardshot but of course 100% power there probably be errors with anyone. I'm not trying to complement myself haha.
And I'm 19 I am still active in basketball but not really in other sports any more. And I found out about table tennis when I was 16 when i went over to my friends house and found trophies for TT. At first like most americans, I found it kind of a stupid sport because It was played on such a small table and required less physical movement. But its end up being fun and I played fora few weeks. 2 months ago my buddy(not the one who won trophys) ask me to play and we had alittle competetive thing going and it was pretty fun. (of course I'm alot better So I just fool around with him most of the time but I still learn alot!) I just have trouble playing with more advanced players who put alot of underspin and im not used to such advance "techniques" because the lack of play time with better players. But still I rather have fun and laugh it up with my buddy when we have a long rallys O yea I'm 6'4 so its thats where the difficulty lies for me in attacking underspin I think. I bend my needs and squat but the fast low spinny underspin seems just to skid off the table and touches my paddle and drops and it seems i cant hit the ball and the optimum point because the ball is so low. |
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