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PLLsystem View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 5:25am
Originally posted by kelvinyoong kelvinyoong wrote:

If a custom is so good, why don't pros use them? Or maybe they do but they change the handle and use side tape to hide the plies.
Because they are sponsored..or have custommade Palatinus blade. Here in Hungary around 50 pro players play with Palatinus blade (from Daniel Kosiba HUN nr.2 beaten Oh Sang Eun with our racket through Adam Lindner & ITTC coach Peter Aranyosi & the whole Wink Team with their coach Wei Xin Qiu to the ex European Champion Tibor Klampar.)
We are working on cooperation with the Hungarian nr3rd and some pros of overseas countries..

Originally posted by kelvinyoong kelvinyoong wrote:

Far places
USA, Canada, Indonesia, Turkey, Australia, UK...etc...for us Australia is the biggest distance


Edited by PLLsystem - 07/12/2010 at 5:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 5:31am
Originally posted by aeoliah aeoliah wrote:

I think I have to blame you guys for writing good things about this OSP blades that awakens the EJ virus in meBig smile. Guess I have to give in.

I apology LOL but what to say when the Master of EJ-ing also bought one Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 6:26am
Tompy

Some sponsored players do use mass production blades, as that is the blade they've developed their game with and it makes sense, to carry on using it. They do get to choose the weight, if they need a replacement.

There are also some very good mass produced blades on the market, which are worth playing with and suitable for pro use.

It's also worth remembering that if you've never played with a high quality hand made blade; then it is hard to imagine what the difference is, between a handmade blade and a mass produced one.

p.s. As you can see from my signature, my main set up at present  is the OSP Virtuoso, with 2 mm Palio Blitz and I can confirm, that a sponsored player who tried the bat, over the weekend; was impressed enough to ask, where it could be bought from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 6:27am
Originally posted by tompy tompy wrote:

 If they don,t do it it would be silly for a topplayer to not ask this from his sponsor or they would take off the griphalves, contact a known bladespecialist like Palatinus themselve and let him make a copy of the blade. No one will see the difference from the outside.  Disturbing maybe but that,s how economics and marketing works ; A name suggests something and suggestion sells.

Rings the bell. Very logic what you mentioned.
Without exaggeration: In our experience the WR top players are untouchable, but the effect you mentioned alive in lower ranking players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 6:39am
Peter, your reflected to another important thing: skills. Pro players can adjust effectively to equipment. Most of them are not sensitive to equipment. If you ask them after eg. a lost match the racket will be the last they mention but you can hear much about mainly tactics, then advantages of the opponent and then own performance. What is similar in these issues? Most of them internal...
Worth to think Wink


Edited by PLLsystem - 07/12/2010 at 6:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 6:56am
Originally posted by PLLsystem PLLsystem wrote:

Originally posted by aeoliah aeoliah wrote:

I think I have to blame you guys for writing good things about this OSP blades that awakens the EJ virus in meBig smile. Guess I have to give in.

I apology LOL but what to say when the Master of EJ-ing also bought one Wink
 
I have to say that following other reviewers, Virtuoso is an awsome blade.
 
And the design is perfect. I mean the blade head shape is perfect to the thickness of the blade. And wood quality, craftmanship and handle (what a handle touch), and weight balance is also top.
 
159x150 with 5,7 mm thickness around is an agressive design to give the blade more spin flexibility performance and speed (the lever arm impact is bigger) (it is a hurricane king like design).
 
about a thicker blade what is a sn465 (5,9-6,0 mm), a more compact head design (head shape is also different), 158x149 is good to get weight balance. the st handle is different also (wider).
 
at the end both blades get a similar performance with a more sharp design (more spin) in Virtuoso and a more solid design (more solidness) in the sn465.
 
For me Virtuoso and sn465 are almost the same blade (every tree is different so they can not be the same blade), and it was from long i told the blade was very good.
 
To people liking a spin blade 5,7 mm around thickness i would go with Virtuoso design. About 5,9-6,0 mm thickness i would go with sn465 design (different blade head shape, and size, 158x149).
 
I think the sn465 has its room in 5,9-6,0 mm thickness.
 
I have been playing these days with Virtuoso, and it was a pleasure. 
 
  


Edited by ejmaster - 07/12/2010 at 8:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 7:19am
Originally posted by Peter C Peter C wrote:

Tompy

Some sponsored players do use mass production blades, as that is the blade they've developed their game with and it makes sense, to carry on using it. They do get to choose the weight, if they need a replacement.
There are also some very good mass produced blades on the market, which are worth playing with and suitable for pro use.


But how would we know ?

For instance the core layer is very important but hard to e see with examin with a blade after it is covered with other layers. Nothing keeps butterfly from keeping some perfect ayous and kiri apart that had a perfect treatment and aging to build premium quality blades for their contract players. A few blocks can be kept apart on a shelf for decades and be enough for decades. Drying of wood is much more then just that. If only they can always select some special wood.

But I was thinking more of the common - less expensive - wooden blades that carry pro names though. Like Yasaka extra Ma Lin was said to use.

If you could take apart the veneers of a factorymade YE and simply reglue the veneers with a glutin glue you allready have a completely different blade with more kick, better feel and control in all aspects.
I have build blades from cheap veneer and corewood using glutin glue that where better then these standard blades and have a similar sort a kick and crack sound as the expensive wood blades with a costprice under one dollar for materials.
The role of gluing is underestimated as the layers are so thin. It can be understood a little if you realize wood is more or less unidirectional. The fibres running in one direktion. How the layers with perpendicular orientation are connected plays a big role in the interaction between layers and therefor the resulting dynamics of the blade even though a glue layer onitself is very thin.


Edited by tompy - 07/12/2010 at 7:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 7:41am
Well...how things work. If you want to see some really good rallies just watch Adam Lindner who plays with custommade Palatinus wood. (His old Primorac OFF- had broken then he asked for us to build a racket...that is a bit more progressive due to the glue ban.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 8:35am
Originally posted by PLLsystem PLLsystem wrote:

Well...how things work.


People are susceptible for that but also have real interest. Unfortunately that interest also can be used for marketing purpose. In fact you should pay me for making this all up. "Improved dynamics between layers" that sells you know.
You,re gonna be a man in bonus now and should pay me for the marketing Wink.

But I can imagine you have enough convincing marketing allready with good players using Osp-blades with convidence and want to stay far from this type of marketing.


Edited by tompy - 07/12/2010 at 8:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 8:37am
..


Edited by tompy - 07/12/2010 at 8:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 8:45am
Originally posted by jcdi jcdi wrote:

The blades are really beautiful, especially handles. The outer Limba grain and the apparent craftmanship look really superior quality. I just wonder why you chose such long shape ? 158 and 159mm must make them really head heavy, doesn't it ? If you stick heavy tenergies on it, it shall be even head heavier...? Also, a 7 plies 5.9mm thick, isn't it too thin ? What is the benefit of having such a thin 7 ply racket ? Why not making a thicker 5 ply, if you want to increase stiffness and speed ?
One reviewer presents (if I got it right...) ultimate as a slower clipper. Do you confirm ?
 
Edit : Sorry, also forgot to ask, ELCON handle shape really looks like conical Kjell Johansson. Is that it ?
 
When the blade is not thick but thin (Virtuoso is 5,7 mm wood), a larger head does not make the blade head heavy, because there wasnt much head weight. As in the Hurricane King (a thinner blade), 159 x 150 mm is a very good head blade design to get more speed and spin and getting the blade more offensive (more lever arm). the speed and spin performance are increased without getting the blade thicker. 
 
With a thicker blade and then there is more head weight it is good to go to a more compact blade head to keep the weight balance.
 
With the Acoustic L, the new acoustic (tenor like) is more solid and thicker (5,9-6 mm), a good design went to a thicker handle but also to a more compact head to get weight balance right.


Edited by ejmaster - 07/12/2010 at 9:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 9:27am
Originally posted by tompy tompy wrote:

People are susceptible for that but also have real interest. Unfortunately that interest also can be used for marketing purpose. In fact you should pay me for making this all up. "Improved dynamics between layers" that sells you know.
You,re gonna be a man in bonus now and should pay me for the marketing Wink.
But I can imagine you have enough convincing marketing allready with good players using Osp-blades with convidence and want to stay far from this type of marketing.

Yeah you might be right for sure. It is our weak point. We are handmade experts not marketing experts.. We believe that we have to make good blades and satisfaction will come automatically. A good product is the advertisement in its own. All of the mentioned hungarian pros payed for the rackets since they felt its importance & the racket is their weapon. That is why we don't need to give final OSP version rackets for free as promotion. That is why we asked all the testers feel free to post their review directly here without selecting.

Anyway, we really dont intend to spread tenth of thousands of rackets month by month under the name of the actual WR 1st since we are a small manufacture and it is impossible to make such amount of rackets by hand. But I tell you something: The main reason is that we simply satisfied when somebody says: "I got it, it is my racket" because it lets you enjoy table tennis that is anyhow a game that we play.
I am sorry for that OFF.. it is so phylosophycal...LOL

PS. I can tell you a secret tompy.. improved dinamics can be made..and its easier in handmade process than mass production. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2010 at 9:53am
I know, mass production and cost-effectivity has it,s own demands that,s why these compromises are made.
Considering you,re philosophy I was aware of that, just wanted to make it a bit understandable how  what seems detail can make a significant difference in the result, costwise and playwise.




Edited by tompy - 07/12/2010 at 2:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 2:34am
I am not sure I am entitled to write a review because I just bought a Virtuoso without the obligation to write a review. Wink We can only confirm that it is a masterjob of people who love TT and understand both the demands of the players and the quality of the wood they use to satisfy those demands. The blade is pleasure to play with. Pluses are too many to be enumerated all, so I would rather mention the three small minuses:

1. The blades is too fast for an OFF- tag.
2. With Tenergy 05 on both sides it is a little bit headheavy.
3. There is less spin in it than expected in the opening part of the game, i.e., it is somewhat harder to produce spinny services.

Do you guys intend to introduce some carbon into your masterwork?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 3:34am
You cannot imagine how much I am glad to read these lines :) At last somebody focused on something that can be improved. Thank you imago.

1 Wow.. Do we have to think about the ratings Shocked Are you sure the speed is not in you? LOL
2 Yeah it is an overall feature of tenergys.. maybe thats why I feel more comfortable with 2.0 baracudas.. but I met players who are not "wrist players" but "torque players" who put 2 edge bands + tenergys to make it more head heavy.. I dont know the right way. Maybe we should offer weight choice in our range. (84-88g is our standard - namely 86+/-2g) What is yours weight? Do you need to change it?
3 It was the same to me but after a month of aaa....not practice but getting used to virtuoso everybody suffers from my simple chop service Big smile

Sorry imago we are not intend to use composites, only pure wood. We can make the same rackets by handmade of pure wood as mass production results with composites. What do you need in features?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 4:06am
I forget to mention.. OSPs are still handmade rackets that means there are biochemical processes working inside for some months, that means continuous improving in feeling, spin and crispness.. so dont give up 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 9:16am
And will that process stops if we seal the blades ? I was thinking that it was the drying process (please correct me if I am wrong) you are talking about, so if we seal the blade, the moisture which is left inside cannot go out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 9:24am
@aeoliah
No its not drying. Drying is absolutely controlled process in our workroom, and we keep it at certain level..during shipping we use SilicaGel to keep it. There are biochemical processes working and improve the performance by some % It is one of the factor that old Stiga rackets has that incredible feeling. We cannot look into inside but we have certain experiences over 600 blades.

@imago
I found another tester EJmaster who says in his post that his Virtuoso is "too much spin canon" with Tenergyes.. Do you use booster?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 11:36am
Besides that (the chemical process which goes very slow) the glues used are elastic but also hard, much harder then wood (steel is also elastic).
Allthough the glue layers are very thin (thus not hardening the blade to much) the hardness and strong binding between layers makes the blades harder in the beginning and where it flexes most, near the handle also a bit stiffer. Comparible with chinese rubber with thick topsheet or leather shoes. You have to break that in a little.
So better not immediately buy a new rubber to adapt to the throw, hardness etc it will all change significant the first weeks of playing. Objektively for the better but subjektive combined with a rubber it can be for the worse also (throw to high for instance). Would be interesting to have some reviews also after more then one or two hours play.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speaquinox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 11:47am
I found the FL handle version has very good balance. Hard to get a better one with this head size and material. Though, SQST is headheavy, since the handle is thinner, narrower. I'm considering to get a Virtuoso with a custom order handle, just to overcome this issue with ST.

Edited by speaquinox - 07/13/2010 at 11:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 12:15pm
@tompy
something like that.. you wrote a way mechanical process... something similar works in violins.

@speaquinox
smart way... many of players would go for lighter SQST to save weight... I like you know that it would not be the same.. (That is why I dont understand manufacturers offer a model in 15g range... in 15 g range almost everything would change, results different blades in every features eg. torque, balance, effective bending strength, bouncing, counter, spin etc...)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by PLLsystem PLLsystem wrote:

@tompy
something like that.. you wrote a way mechanical process... something similar works in violins.


Borko mentioned it once in a thread about his blades.
Energy (and feel) also transfers with vibrations it goes together, just as sound. Low, not hearable, like the flex of the complete blade or higher from the toplayers deforming into the softer core.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 1:14pm
I apology LOL This way it does not work the same as violins...since we can hear their voice Big smile
(just kidding)

Anyway I believe Borko. I dont know other who knows much about violins. It is his profession.


Edited by PLLsystem - 07/13/2010 at 1:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 3:22pm
No apology, but why the sport is also referred to as ping-pong ( or ping-pang in china ) then ?
Isn,t that by the sound ? (Just kidding also). 

Edited by tompy - 07/13/2010 at 3:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 3:31pm
The spin problem is only when serving. I suppose it is a matter of practice. As for the OFF- tag, we have somehow managed to "downtag" the Virtuoso using Andro seal, then sanding it away. Seems that it has penetrated the pores of the lamina and added more control to the blade.

I intend also to use some lighter t05 - either FX or 1.9 or even 1.7.

BTW, using two new sheets of the old H3 Provincial with w/b glue renders fantastic results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 3:38pm
Thanks Imago, you are the first who shared experience on sealing..
Back to the violin metaphor as far as I know the biggest secret that instrument
producers kept was their lacquer that mixed their own way and used for finishing the violin



Edited by PLLsystem - 07/13/2010 at 3:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kelvinyoong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2010 at 6:55pm
@ Imago

The way you downtag a blade using a sealer like Andro which i think is a lacquer base is very interesting.

What does the Andro seal look like and smell? If you can let me know because i want to know if it is similar to the Xiom sealer.

Also is it because sealing the pores makes the blade stiffer thus adding control?


Edited by kelvinyoong - 07/13/2010 at 6:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/14/2010 at 12:22am
Originally posted by PLLsystem PLLsystem wrote:

@aeoliah
No its not drying. Drying is absolutely controlled process in our workroom, and we keep it at certain level..during shipping we use SilicaGel to keep it. There are biochemical processes working and improve the performance by some % It is one of the factor that old Stiga rackets has that incredible feeling. We cannot look into inside but we have certain experiences over 600 blades.


So the biochemical process will not be stopped or slowed down if the blade is sealed ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/14/2010 at 1:04am
Hi, Kelvin!

Andro Free Seal is a w/b lackeur, and because it is water based it must have created more elasticity rather than stiffness. I am experimenting now with a w/b floor lack protection containing teflon and UV-filter, which increases elasticity but adds also hardness. Something of the sort of the Stiga CR effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/14/2010 at 2:44am
@aeoliah
those processes working inside the plies not on surfase in my opinion varnishing does not affect that
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