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the trouble with lessons |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Edited by APW46 - 07/29/2010 at 6:34pm |
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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BMonkey
Gold Member Joined: 11/28/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1015 |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Well, what a question, good stuff. Can European coaching systems match up to the Chinese one? No and yes, depending on your perception, NO because China has the ultimate recource of players, its difficult for European countries to compete with the base (pyramid) of numbers that Chinese coaches have to work with. YES, because IMO Europe has the better potential for innovation , based on the fact that China is so much more institutionalised as a country, so maverick behavior is less likely, Maverick thinking is what traditionally leads to innovation, this is why if you look at history, Hungary and Sweden were able to defeat China.
We can't see it now, but if history reall does repeat itself, the Chinese dominance will be challenged at some point, but I have no reservations, China will adapt instantly and dominate once more, there will be a blip, Euro success, short lived. China does not do so well in innovation because it does not need to, there is the paradox. Edited by APW46 - 07/29/2010 at 7:35pm |
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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without having read the posts other than the first, Its something that makes me think of martial arts with all the forms and kata and stuff- you can do all this stuff and still get beat up because you don't get in fights to feel out and experience things. Drilling and multiball and practice help you develop the tools. But I've seen players with perfect strokes and no game before. You NEED the tools to be at the top level. But you also need the GAME. The game comes from experience. So it's crucial to get the tools down, but it's also necessary to have years of playing under your belt to develop a solid game before you become very good- which explains why all the top players also started playing when they were knee-high to a grasshopper.
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Jeff(ATTC)
Gold Member Joined: 09/22/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1166 |
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BH-man i appreciate the comments. Please, please stop by ATTC when you're in town. It's been too long since we've played. BMonkey: Honestly speaking, I don't think that it makes much of a difference if an individual choses to have a Euro or Chinese stroke. I mean for most of the people here including myself, the advantages of the Chinese stroke or the euro stroke really don't come into play since we're not that consistent yet or high enough a level. I'd say it would start to make a difference after USATT 2400, because for those guys power is more of a factor and lots of players (especially sub 2500 players) here in the US are doing fine with euro strokes. For players 2200 an below I think it's just a matter of consistency. Take for example Andrew Chen, a USATT 2300 junior player. His strokes may not be as powerful as mine or yours, but his consistency is outstanding, and on top of that he has a 2500+ private coach to help him out.
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Bty Jun Mizutani ZLC
FH: D80 BH: D05 |
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Jeff(ATTC)
Gold Member Joined: 09/22/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1166 |
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Bty Jun Mizutani ZLC
FH: D80 BH: D05 |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Re: Flipkill
I was referring to the action of performing a fast powerful short crosscourt flip against short serves. A second ball attack as it were. Now I have played a native chinese penholder who would demolish any of my short-dead-to-mid serves and my short underspin serves to his forehand flipkill. But he's at least US1700 and has a plethora of strokes that I'm not used to seeing at that level. And while I think I understand the argument for the US700 player trying to master the same stroke, I would argue that without a higher level ability to read incoming spin, trying to flip-kill all short serves isn't really practice, it's simply lashing out unknowingly and hoping for a good result. Edited by icontek - 07/30/2010 at 11:04am |
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BMonkey
Gold Member Joined: 11/28/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1015 |
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Every pro today had to start somewhere and was taught what was important in looping: Consistency or power. I think most common opinion today at the amateur level is that consistency is the most important thing to develop first. And when I say "consistency" I don't mean just being able to hit an opening loop and follow up loop well, I think both styles must have that stability present. I think of "consistency" as being able to hit your loop over and over again even when the pace changes or ball placement or trajectory moves. Of course that sounds great in theory, hit your loop anywhere anytime, but to make that happen you have to make your stroke small and quick so it can be started and ended in a very small window. To gain small and quick you trade off speed and spin. You get a style better suited to rallying and playing long points because you execute and recover quickly, and you don't make as powerful of shots so they are easier to block/counterloop. To work with the weaker loops and better rallying skills, you see an emphasis on unbalancing opponents in the set up and then very good quality placement in the european play. The chinese style often times, but not always, does not have as much of an emphasis on moving your opponent and trying to attack the created weak point, but rather getting the opponent to hit a loose ball in the opening shots and then "hitting through them". The most classic example of this is Ma Lin's trademark shot: 3rd ball attack, step around the BH corner and FH loop drive either down the line or crosscourt ( see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktmxD5J93DU 0:09, 0:32, 1:36, etc). If you watch him, he puts himself in a virtually unrecoverable position and if his shot gets blocked back, the whole table is open for the opponent to use. But the shot he hits is a monster, so fast and spinney that the majority of the time it doesn't come back and if does come back, he cannot make a strong shot on it because he hasn't recovered from his big swing yet. Ma long has this same problem close to the table. You'll see him do a big loop then have to block the return because he hasn't recovered in time, even through the return from the opponent is just a block (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS5zTTgZ03U 1:32 for example).
Anyways, a person's choice of in game tactics should be the driving force behind how they train and the techniques they choose to employ. I think it is callous to write off everyone below X level as being undeveloped beginners for whatever the subject is at the moment: what equipment to use, coaching, tactics, etc. Consistency is the key, consistency in executing the strokes and tactics you choose to make your game. As the rating goes up, the percentages of success and the quality of the shots goes up, but you already see the groundwork laid for styles and tactics way below 2200 USATT rating. You train today for the game tomorrow. You start developing footwork, strokes, mentality to work in conjunction with those tactics way below 2200, but they will not bear their full fruit until 2200+. So just because you see the best player in your club or area using a particular stroke or style, doesn't mean he has the best style or stroke for you. You have to find something that works with your individual needs as a player. Time investment, age, build, health, mentality, natural talents all play their part in deciding this. Edited by BMonkey - 07/30/2010 at 4:00pm |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Agree! To many players brings their practice to the match table. When you are playing a match, you should use the tools that you master and try to win with them. No point in giving away free points because "you want to" be able to perform those shots, that's what practice is about and you should practice the shots you want to use, but don't use them in a match until you can trust them. To me, this is the difference between playing matches in practice (Where I allow my self to try out new shots and low % shots) and playing matches in the league, where my aim is to win, not to learn how to master different strokes. |
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capablanca8
Super Member Joined: 08/04/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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Let's say you're learning to flip or fast loop or backhand loop or whatever. And let's assume many of your shots don't stay on the table. But if you don't keep trying, it will be extremely hard to develop an offensive game. I don't really see anything wrong with encouraging someone to use the strokes he or she is trying to develop. I mean, what is at stake except losing the game? Why wouldn't the "beginner" try flipping shots even if he/she only succeeds 1/3 of the time? Is this really such a horrible percentage for a beginner playing against a strong server serving short? Isn't it better for the beginner to lose some matches early on if it will lead to better skill development? Of course it's different if you're at the U.S. Open or something. It's also different if spectators have paid good money to watch good matches. But if it's a rather ordinary situation like Wednesday night club play, why so much annoyance over less advanced players trying to work on skills?
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Capablanca8,
My point is, for the Wednesday night club play, it is fine to work on what ever shot you want to learn, but when you play in league, or a tournament, then you should use your matches as additional practice, these should be used to play the shots you feel comfortable with rather then giving away free points playing a game that is beyond your level. |
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The holy grail
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capablanca8
Super Member Joined: 08/04/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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Sure, Speedplay, that makes good sense. No dispute about league or tournament play. But in ordinary club matches--when not a whole lot is at stake really--it seems reasonable for a player to work on new techniques, even if they're not by most definitions successful.
Thanks.
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Jeff(ATTC)
Gold Member Joined: 09/22/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1166 |
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Bmonkey
I totally agree with you on your statement on consistency. It's what sets players apart, and it's one factor that holds players from that next ratings range. Originally I wanted a Chinese stroke when I first started playing, but as I played longer, I found it better to move towards a euro style. There was more "technical support" at the facility I was playing at, so that problems in my technique could be easier identified. So far its worked ok for me. And that explains my bias towards euro technique. I also agree with you on game tactics and techniques as a driving force for what you practice during practice. However, I do not think it is callous (a little harsh on the word selection there) to say that people fall in to rating ranges, where lower ranges are not as developed as higher ranges. I'm not saying that a 1500's push is not as good as an 1700 push, or a 2000's loop is not as good as 2100's etc. I'm saying that, yes a lower rated player may be working on their consistency on their footwork, strokes, mental game etc, but the individual is not ready to preform at a 2200 (insert X rating here) level because their lack in consistency. So I believe that a player under a certain level using Chinese or Euro technique has no major advantage in, power, recovery, etc. since he/she will probably have deficiencies in other parts of their game that take away that advantage until he/she get's that that "magical" rating where their consistency is at a level where those factors do play a role. At the same time there is no problems if someone choses to play one style or the other. |
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Bty Jun Mizutani ZLC
FH: D80 BH: D05 |
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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I don't understand why people are so focused on what kind of looping technique they are using. The technique you're using should be what makes you're comfortable and what makes you the player you are.
Like I said many times before. You train YOUR game, not learn somebody else's. There is no point to mimic someone's style 100%. Because that other player may have different background then you. Whatever it may be. Maybe the player you idolize is more athletic, thin, tall, etc. We are all different. Haven't anyone heard non table tennis players speak after watching the game? I did. At a tournament. Two hours into watching the mid levels where I was competing 1500-1800 at the time, my father said its not interesting any more because everyone looks THE SAME!!! So why clone your game? Why not work on your own? Why not get a better feel for what you do best and make it better. Then find out what weakens' your game and close those "holes" in your game. You will see an immediate improvement. I guarantee it! Hence, I agree that there is a problem with lessons. Most coaches teach technique and don't tailor it to their player. They also don't go in the detail thinking and being creative in the development of a player. They use the book principle. Once you master material in the book, by definition you will become good. Well this, Shaolin like training, will work, but it will take more time - so it will take years to learn all those shots and even more years to find out how to put them together in a real match like situation. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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It doesn't matter what kind of stroke you use, Chinese, Euro, or Martian, if you don't practice hitting when you have to move to get to the ball, then your practice is wasted because this is what happens in games. Coaches are good for that.
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